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[spoiler] what the Italian tech tree could look like

Italy Fiat Macchi Reggiane Savoia-Marchetti Breda IMAM Caproni CANSA CRDA

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J311yfish #1 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:09 AM

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Aircraft Details (scroll down) Alternates II-IV / Alternates V-IX Foreign / Captured Production locations / Quantities Campini

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Designers Designs Airfoils / Engines Climb Rates Armament Operational locations / Timelines Bombers Transports

work in progress

 

Accountability (tiers approx):

 

Omitted:

 

Sources:

 

Further Refinement:

 

Older versions:

 


Edited by J311yfish, 23 November 2016 - 06:26 AM.

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J311yfish #2 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:10 AM

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Example (first flight date MM/YYYY)

 


 

 

Tier I

 

Fiat CR.20 (09/1926) -- [>689 built] -- reference: NiD-62 -- Celestino Rosatelli

 


Edited by J311yfish, 10 November 2016 - 12:54 AM.

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J311yfish #3 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:10 AM

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Tier II

 

Fiat CR.32 (04/1933) -- [1003 built] -- reference: He 51 (II), I-15 (II), Ki-10 (II) -- Celestino Rosatelli

 

IMAM Ro.37 Lince (Lynx)​ -- (11/1933) -- [617 built] -- reference: Hawker Demon (II) -- Giovanni Galasso

 

Caproni Bergamaschi A.P.1 (04/1934) -- [57 built] -- Cesare Pallavicino

 


Edited by J311yfish, 15 November 2016 - 01:12 PM.

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J311yfish #4 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:11 AM

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Tier III

 

Fiat CR.42 Falco (Falcon)  (05/1938, from CR.40-41 1934-1937) -- [1782 built] -- ref: F3F (III), Gladiator -- Celestino Rosatelli

 

Caproni Bergamaschi Ca.310 Libeccio (Southwest Wind) -- (04/1937 from Ca.308 1935) -- [1600+ built in series] -- ref: Ao 192 (II), Fw 57 (III) -- Cesare Pallavicino

 

Breda Ba.65 (09/1935) -- [218 built] -- Giuseppe Panzeri and Antonio Parano

 

 


 

 

Breda Ba.27 Metallico (06/1934; to China 1935+) (III) -- [12 built] -- reference: Boeing P-26 (II)

 


Edited by J311yfish, 14 November 2016 - 02:44 PM.

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J311yfish #5 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:11 AM

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Tier IV

 

Fiat G.50 Freccia (Arrow)  (02/1937) -- [791 built] -- reference Ki-43-I (IV), MS.406 -- Giuseppe Gabrielli

 

Caproni Ca.314C (10/1942 from Ca.310 04/1937) -- [407 built A, B, C] -- Cesare Pallavicino

 

Breda Ba.88 Lince (Lynx)   (02/1937) -- [148 built] -- reference: Bf 110B (IV), Fw 189 (IV) -- twin-engine two-seat attack bomber -- Giuseppe Panzeri and Antonio Parano

 


Edited by J311yfish, 13 November 2016 - 01:05 PM.

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J311yfish #6 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:12 AM

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Tier V

 

Macchi C.200 Saetta (Thunderbolt)  (12/1937) -- reference Ki-43-II (V), D.520 -- Mario Castoldi

 

Reggiane Re.2000 Falco I (Falcon)  (05/1939) -- unlicensed development of P-35 (III); reference: F4F (V) -- Roberto Longhi

 

Caproni Bergamaschi Ca.331 Raffica (Squall) -- (08/1940) -- twin-engine light reconnaissance/bomber/night-fighter -- Cesare Pallavicino

 

Fiat/CANSA FC.20 (1941; confirm) -- [~6 built] -- assault -- reference Hs 129 (V) -- Giacomo Mosso

 


Edited by J311yfish, 14 November 2016 - 02:56 AM.

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J311yfish #7 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:12 AM

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Tier VI

 

Macchi C.202 Folgore (Lightning)  (08/1940) -- [~1150 built] -- reference: Spitfire V (Tier VI), Ki-61 (VI) -- Mario Castoldi

 

Reggiane Re.2001 Falco II (Falcon)  (07/1940; confirm) -- [226 built] -- Roberto Longhi, Antonio Alessio

 

Savoia-Marchetti SM.91/92 (03/1943, 10/1943; confirm) -- long-range escort fighter -- reference P-38J (VI), Me 410 (VI) -- Alessandro Marchetti

 

Savoia-Marchetti SM.89 (09/1941) -- [1 built] -- assault -- reference Ju 88P (VI) -- Alessandro Marchetti

 


Edited by J311yfish, 14 November 2016 - 01:22 PM.

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J311yfish #8 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:13 AM

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Tier VII

 

Fiat G.55 Centauro (Centaur) (04/1942) -- reference Bf 109G (VII) -- Giuseppe Gabrielli

 

Piaggio P.119 (12/1942) -- Giovanni Casiraghi

 

Caproni Bergamaschi Ca.380 Corsaro (Corsair)  (prototype incomplete 09/1943) -- twin-engined, twin-boom, high-altitude two-seat fighter bomber -- ref: Bf 109Z (VII) -- Pallavicino

 

Breda BZ.303/304 Leone (Lion) -- (prototype incomplete 09/1943) -- Filippo Zappata

 


Edited by J311yfish, 14 November 2016 - 03:02 AM.

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J311yfish #9 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:14 AM

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Tier VIII

 

Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario (Archer) (05/1942) -- reference MiG I-250 (VIII) -- Roberto Longhi

 


Edited by J311yfish, 13 November 2016 - 11:40 PM.

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J311yfish #10 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:15 AM

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Tier IX

 

Aerfer Sagittario 2 (Archer 2)  (05/1956)-- Sergio Stefanutti

 

Fiat G.82  (05/1954; confirm) -- Giuseppe Gabrielli

 

Arado Ar 234 variant

 


Edited by J311yfish, 13 November 2016 - 01:28 PM.

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J311yfish #11 Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:15 AM

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Tier X

 

Aerfer Ariete (Ram)  (03/1958) -- Sergio Stefanutti

 

Fiat G.91  (08/1956) -- design team headed by Giuseppe Gabrielli

 

 

 

Tier X alternates

 


Edited by J311yfish, 13 November 2016 - 01:31 PM.

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J311yfish #12 Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:16 PM

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First update:

-- this is a rough draft (i.e. starting point) based on the extensive work done by Demon93IT, and Raptor_Fulcrum's investigation into jet projects that did not materialize.

-- aircraft in transparent/gray color are those that did not proceed beyond the project stage.

-- there are some omissions (such as single-engine dive bombers) for now but it will grow in refinement as the main aircraft are solidified with detail.

-- progress from here involves German engine benchmarks for tiers IV-VIII, gathering details, refinement.

-- Breda Ba.27M (premium for China) as a benchmark implies that Fiat CR.40/41 might be tier III (same engine), and Fiat CR.42's first flight date (15 months after Fiat G.50suggests that it might be placed at tier IV (same engine).  If these considerations are adhered to, then the major implication is that the CR.42 might be granted use of the experimental DB.601 and/or 20mm cannons to fight obsolescence.

 


Edited by J311yfish, 12 October 2014 - 06:29 PM.

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Raindrops #13 Posted 13 October 2014 - 01:41 PM

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A treat for those looking for more Italian in the forums: The old Italian discussion section, now archived away from normal view.

 

Still looking forward to Italians - hopefully they'll come soon after the French, as they're supposed to be around the end of the year. Of course, I do still want more Japanese before either nation, though.


I never said I was good.

USA needs GA too.


J311yfish #14 Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:15 PM

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ENGINES

 

Italian engines

 

German engines -- benchmarks in-game (Daimler-Benz)

 

Engine comparison -- lateral, rough

 

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 13 November 2016 - 01:13 PM.

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Demon93IT #15 Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:42 PM

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You're doing a great job considering the fact that WG hasn't helped with the Ba.27. I'm looking foward to see how your work will end up since mine got messed up by that plane and i don't really want to restart all over again, especially since i still consider the Ba.27 out of place.

J311yfish #16 Posted 04 December 2014 - 09:45 PM

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Shared designs/concepts: 

-- The goal is to track technological advancement with precision to see how that might be reflected in the tech tree beyond simple placement at each tier.

-- These details are not revealed through specifications but rather through close reading and cross-referencing of development narratives.

 

Airfoils

 

Wings

 

Control surfaces

 

Fuselage

 

Engine and Propellers

 

Armament

 

Undercarriage

 

Electronics

 

Designers by Manufacturer

 
 

Edited by J311yfish, 06 November 2016 - 08:12 PM.

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J311yfish #17 Posted 23 May 2015 - 03:21 PM

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ALTERNATES

-- lesser aircraft as potential premiums

 

Tier II

 

Tier III

 

Tier IV

 


Edited by J311yfish, 17 November 2016 - 02:39 PM.

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FreeFOXMIKE #18 Posted 23 May 2015 - 03:31 PM

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great research my only question is the spoiler  most times reserved of it fact ,but again great work

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J311yfish #19 Posted 15 January 2016 - 10:19 PM

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ALTERNATES (contd)

 

Tier V

 

Tier VI

 

Tier VII

 

Tier VIII

 

Tier IX

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 15 November 2016 - 02:24 PM.

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J311yfish #20 Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:16 AM

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TIMELINE

 

 

ARMAMENT

 

A note on aircraft armament in Italy:

 

"The Italian air force was unusual in changing very early from RCMGs to HMGs, but rather threw away the lead this might have given them at the start of the war by typically fitting very few of them.  As alread stated, the Italians adopted the 12.7x81SR Vickers cartridge and produced two of their own weapons in this calibre, the Breda-SAFAT and the Scotti, the former being far more important and numerous.  They also produced prototypes of two 20mm guns, the Breda CL20 and another design by Scotti, but neither saw service, the MG 151/20 being used instead." (Williams, 176-177)

 

"When Italy entered the war in 1940, the main fighters were the FIAT CR32 and CR42 Falco biplanes, being supplemented by the FIAT G.50 Freccia and Macchi MC.200 Saetta monoplanes.  The usual armament of all these aircraft consisted of two 12.7mm Breda-SAFATs in the traditional cowling-mounted and synchronised installations, although in some versions were supplemented by another pair of wing-mounted guns, usually RCMGs.  Even the first of the new inline-engined high-performance fighters, the MC.202 ... and the Reggiane RE.2001 Falco II, were no better equipped.  The only adequately armed Italian fighters were the modified MC.205V, with two 12.7s and two MG 151/20s, and the FIAT G.55 Centauro which had two 12.7s and three MG 151s but these were too late to have any impact before Italy's surrender in 1943." (Williams, 177)

 

"Italian bombers were generally equipped with flexibly mounted defensive weapons, usually RCMGs, but some had one 12.7mm gun in a dorsal turret.  The Savoia-Marchetti SM79 Sparviero and SM84 torpedo bomber were the only ones to feature more than one HMG, but even then had only three or four, most of which were flexibly mounted." (Williams, 177)

 

Source:

Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces, by Anthony G. Williams (2000 Airlife):


Edited by J311yfish, 13 November 2016 - 01:15 PM.

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