93 replies to this topic

[hoom]

Looking at other Trees/Lines I don't see any problem at all with Lights to T3 then Multiroles T4+ when we have existing examples like German Ta 152 line: T1 Multirole, T2-4 Light, T5-7 Multirole, T8-10 Light again.

[jack_wdw]

I read that with the next major upgradet, DH Vampire F.1 will be available for supertesters as a tier VIII aircraft.

[J311yfish]

jack_wdw, on 12 June 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

I read that with the next major upgradet, DH Vampire F.1 will be available for supertesters as a tier VIII aircraft.

 

Thanks for the update.

 

Update 2.05 -- 06/12/18

 New aircraft available for developers and Supertesters only for testing purposes:

De Havilland DH.100 Vampire F.1: British Tier VIII fighter

 

Added some notes here under Tier VIII premiums:

-- Vampire F.1 first flight 04/20/1945

-- Vampire F.1 trials 06/1945

-- Goblin 1 engine

 

Incidentally, here are some related facts:

-- Curtiss XF15C is also tier VIII and its J36 engine is an Americanized version of the De Havilland H1-B Goblin. (Bowers, 506-507)

-- Saab 21R for Sweden -- this is another indication that it would be tier VIII.

Edited by J311yfish, 17 June 2018 - 11:05 AM.

[Trophy_Wench]

Hey Jelly, another question about your lineups. Well two actually.

One: as I mentioned before I found the early Gloster fighters to be difficult to justify as true MRs but would it perhaps be more feasible to create a German style mini-branch through tier IV with the Gladiator still unlocking both the Hurricane MR and the F.5/34 LF at tier IV, and that would just unlock the Spit? I unfortunately cannot find any way to make a complete and coherent line of Gloster fighters after that point. 

 

Secondly: are the turret fighters really viable for this game? Looking at that line more closely, I worry that the Fairey Fulmar and Firefly are tiered too high, and that to bring them down a tier you have to start eliminating those previous turret fighters. IMO the most logical one would be the Roc as it was meant to be used in tandem with as opposed to replacing the Skua. So it's performance wouldn't really be superior in any way. But even with that, does the Bolton Paul Defiant have a place in this game at all? I'm not convinced it does, so with that said I would see that line go Skua, ... something..., Fulmar, Firefly, Firebrand, and then the DeHaviland fighters. Any thoughts?

[hoom]

They could just give the Skua the Beaufighter treatment: ie top config is same as current except with the quad mg turret added as rear gunner upgrade with only small performance penalty. (historic Beaufighter with that turret had no other armament except 2* 20mm)

[Trophy_Wench]

hoom, on 21 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

They could just give the Skua the Beaufighter treatment: ie top config is same as current except with the quad mg turret added as rear gunner upgrade with only small performance penalty. (historic Beaufighter with that turret had no other armament except 2* 20mm)

 

Mmmm, I don't know if it would be sensible or balanced to do so. Keep in mind that the Roc has NO forward firing armament, all of its firepower is in that turret. And hybrid-izing the Skua might make it OP with a quad .303 turret that can traverse 360 degrees.

Edited by Trophy_Wench, 21 June 2018 - 05:54 PM.

[hoom]

Oh I know and agree.

Just a passive-aggressive continuation of my argument from 'Nerf Beaufighter' thread

[J311yfish]

Trophy_Wench, on 20 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

Secondly: are the turret fighters really viable for this game? 

 

I don't have an answer for that and it isn't up to me.  However, 1) the game is under development; 2) turret fighters existed for a time.  It is a decision for developers to make. One of my primary goals (with all tech tree projects) has been to provide a context to understand developer decisions.  The tech tree manifested here does not have to be 100% accurate to the game, but it should be accurate to actual historical progression as much as possible so that deviations from history are rendered clear and obvious (Ex: absence of Gladiator).

 

Trophy_Wench, on 20 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

I worry that the Fairey Fulmar and Firefly are tiered too high, and that to bring them down a tier you have to start eliminating those previous turret fighters. 

 

Placement at each tier has been determined by historical context (specifications, first flight, service entry, narrative, etc.) as well as by comparison to modules known to exist already in-game.

 

The Roc for example has a tier VI Boulton-Paul turret.

The Fulmar Mk.II for example has a tier VI Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.

The Firefly for example has a tier VIII Rolls-Royce Griffon engine.

 

If you are determined to eliminate the turret fighters (in order to pretend that they never existed or never influenced the design conversation) then you will absolutely have difficulty making a cohesive progression.

 

Trophy_Wench, on 20 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

IMO the most logical one would be the Roc as it was meant to be used in tandem with as opposed to replacing the Skua. So it's performance wouldn't really be superior in any way. 

 

The relationship between one tier and the next is not based on simply "this replaced that."

 

Trophy_Wench, on 20 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

does the Bolton Paul Defiant have a place in this game at all? I'm not convinced it does

 

That is a developer decision and the game is still under development.  It is not up to me and I have no interest in making a case for or against its inclusion. 

 

Trophy_Wench, on 20 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

so with that said I would see that line go Skua, ... something..., Fulmar, Firefly, Firebrand, and then the DeHaviland fighters. Any thoughts?

 

That doesn't make sense to me but you are welcome to pursue the idea further if you think it makes sense to you.  I recommend looking at it from many different angles to see how it satisfies chronology, specifications, features, etc.

 

Note that, based on some hints in the historical narrative, that we might actually see De Havilland Vampire as progression from the existing Hawker mini-line.  See Frank Halford (engine designer), and notes on use of aircraft in a ground attack role.

 

 

[J311yfish]

Some discussion generated about ultimate tier IV biplanes has given cause to revisit the U.K. tech tree in order to answer the question -- WHERE IS THE GLADIATOR? and how could it get into the game?  So, here are some of those possibilities, revisited.

 

How Gloster Gladiator can fit into the current game:

 

1. as pre-Hurricane progression -- an opportunity to do this was bypassed in order to have the Hawker Demon and Blackburn Skua as multirole lead-ins to the Hurricane.  It could still be done, but let us suppose for sake of argument that it will not, so that other opportunities are rendered clear:

 

2. as pre-Fulmar progression -- the Gladiator was adapted for carrier duty as the Sea Gladiator and was later replaced by the Fulmar.  If that is the favored avenue, then what could it look like?

 

Tier	First Flight	Production	Aircraft	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs/Rockets
II	__/1933	… 20+ ...	Gloster S.S.19B Gloster Gauntlet I Gloster Gauntlet II	III  Bristol Mercury VIS 536 bhp Bristol Mercury VIS2 640hp (2-blade wooden Watts propeller) Bristol Mercury VIS2 640hp (3-blade metal Fairey propeller)	346 km/h @ 5029m 370 km/h @ 4816m ...	4x Lewis (W)
III	09/1934   12/1938 del.	378 270 (38)+60	Gloster Gladiator I Gloster Gladiator II Gloster Sea Gladiator	Bristol Mercury IX 830hp Bristol Mercury VIIIA or VIIIAS 830hp Bristol Mercury VIIIA or VIIIAS 830hp IV  Bristol Mercury XV (as for Bristol Blenheim)	407 km/h @ 4419m 414 km/h @ 4449m​ 407 km/h @ 4449m	2x7.7mm Browning (S) + 2x7.7mm Lewis or Vickers K 4x7.7mm 4-6x7.7mm	yes yes yes
IV	~06/1937	2	Gloster F.5/34	III  Bristol Mercury IX 840hp supercharged (3-blade prop) IV  Bristol Taurus (proposed by Roy Fedden)	509 km/h @ 4876m	8x7.62mm Browning (W)
V	01/1940	150	Fairey Fulmar I	V  Rolls-Royce Merlin I  1030hp ...Fairey P.4/34 and prototypes V  Rolls-Royce Merlin II  1030hp V  Rolls-Royce Merlin VIII  1080hp - Fulmar Mk.I	... 455 km/h 438 km/h	8x7.62mm	up to 500 lbs
VI		450	Fairey Fulmar II	VI  Rolls-Royce Merlin XXX   1300hp 246 mph -- Fulmar Mk.II
VII	12/1941	429	Fairey Firefly I	Rolls-Royce Griffon XII 1735hp Rolls-Royce Griffon XII 1990hp	513 km/h	4x20mm
VIII		160 352	Fairey Firefly IV Fairey Firefly V	Rolls-Royce Griffon 74 2250hp (4-blade propeller)
IX
X

 

 

^ this would mean that an opportunity to progress from through turret fighters (Blackburn Skua --> Blackburn Roc --> Boulton-Paul Defiant) would be eliminated, perhaps in favor of offering them as premiums at a later time.

 

3. as progression or premium for another country -- such as Sweden, Finland, China

 

4. as premium for U.K.

 

Edited by J311yfish, 24 September 2018 - 12:39 AM.

[J311yfish]

Update 2.07 -- patch notes:

New promotional planes added

Junkers Ju 86E — German Tier III bomber;
Henschel Hs 129A — German Tier IV attack aircraft;
Heinkel He 111 H-2 — German Tier IV bomber;
de Havilland Vampire F.1 — British Tier VIII fighter.

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 03 October 2018 - 06:40 PM.

[J311yfish]

Developer Blog Q&A 02/2018 part 1 -- part 2

Q. Can you give us any more information about what planes may make up the later tiers of the Hawker multirole & German bomber lines?
A. The Hawker branch will include the legendary Typhoon and some more advanced modifications of this fighter. The high-tier German bombers branch will include Junkers projects with some very remarkable experimental aircraft that boast impressive speed and powerful bomb loads. Both branches are planned for release this year.

 

^ This could be an indicator that the Hawker line will lead to Westland Wyvern by way of Hawker P.1030:

 

-- Napier Sabre 24-cylinder H --> Rolls-Royce Eagle 24-cylinder H

-- contra-rotating propellers

-- elliptical wing

-- multirole capability to meet Fleet Air Arm requirements

 

Spoiler

 

Hawker Typhoon (FF 02/1940) -- Specification F.18/37 -- introduced 09/1941+

Hawker P.1009 (proposal 1941) -- Specification N.11/40 -- navalised Typhoon, did not proceed to production; Blackburn Firebrand chosen instead (Mason, 327)

 

"Design of the [Rolls-Royce] Eagle [engine] had begun in 1942 with the aim of producing an engine more powerful than any other then running ... 2,808 cubic inch capacity engine, equivalent to 46 liters, had 2 crankshafts, each driven by 12 sleeve-valved cylinders, turning a 2-stage 2-speed supercharger with inter-coolers at the rear of the engine and, initially, a single propeller shaft at the front.  Later ... a new reduction gearbox to turn the 13' diameter 8-bladed contra-rotating propeller was embodied in the Eagle 22 …" (James, 287-288)

 

Developments of Hawker Tempest (which was originally conceived as "Typhoon II"):

 

Hawker P.1027 (design 1943) -- Specification F.13/44 -- Rolls-Royce 46H 4,020hp -- contra-rotating propellers -- 4x20mm (W) -- radiator beneath fuselage under pilot -- span 12.5m, length 11.4m (Buttler, 30)

 

 

Hawker P.1030 (design 09/1943) -- Rolls-Royce 46H 4,020hp -- 2x4-blade contra-rotating propellers 4.1m -- radiators on wing leading edges (tried on earlier Tempest I) -- 819 km/h @ 6,096m est. -- "better efficiencies … in climb and level speed, could be obtained if a 2-speed propeller gearing was fitted." (Buttler, 30)

 

Supermarine 391 (design after 09/1943) -- Rolls-Royce 46H24 (RH.2.SM) with 2-speed propeller gearing -- contra-rotating propellers -- Spiteful/Seafang's laminar flow wing (Buttler, 30)

Westland P.9 project (design 03/1943-08/1943) -- Specification S.6/43 and S.11/43 -- formed basis of Westland W.34

Westland W.34 -- large 'humped' fuselage with cockpit high on top to provide excellent forward view, near-elliptical planform low wing, large fin and rudder; 08/1944 decision made to proceed with Rolls-Royce Eagle engine; broad design established by end of 09/1944 (James, 285-286) -- 4x20mm

Westland Wyvern (FF 12/1946)  -- Specification N.11/44 -- protracted development, introduced 05/1953+ -- Meeting 10/02/1944 discussed Mk.I  (to be powered by Rolls-Royce Eagle) and Mk.II (to be powered by new RB.39 Clyde propeller-turbine) ... "Forecasts for Clyde deliveries were wildly optimistic.  The first was expected to be ready in [12/1945 but in reality not run until 08/05/1945 and not delivered until summer 1948]." (James, 289)

 

 

 

A transition to Westland Wyvern would certainly meet the oft-proclaimed developer demand that new aircraft should diversify gameplay.

 

Spoiler

 

Path to Hunter

IV	Hawker Hurricane I	Merlin C Merlin III Merlin 29	8x.303 Vickers Mk. III (W) 8x.303 Browning Mk. II (W)
V	Hawker Hurricane II	Merlin III Merlin XII Merlin XX Merlin 27	8x.303 Browning Mk.II (W) 12x.303 Browning Mk.II (W) 4x20mm Hispano Mk.II (W)
VI	Hawker Tornado	Vulture II Vulture V Centaurus IV	12x.303 Browning Mk.II (W) 4x20mm Hispano Mk.II (W)
VII	Hawker Tempest II	Centaurus V Centaurus VI	4x20mm Hispano Mk.II (W) 4x20mm Hispano Mk.V (W)
VIII	Hawker Sea Fury	Centaurus XXII Centaurus XII Centaurus XV Centaurus XVIII	4x20mm Hispano Mk.V
IX	Hawker Sea Hawk	Nene I Nene II Nene 101 Nene 103	4x20mm Hispano Mk.V
X	Hawker Hunter	Avon	4x30mm ADEN

 

Path to Wyvern

V	Hawker Hurricane I	Merlin C Merlin III Merlin 29	8x.303 Vickers Mk. III (W) 8x.303 Browning Mk. II (W)
V	Hawker Hurricane II	Merlin III Merlin XII Merlin XX Merlin 27	8x.303 Browning Mk.II (W) 12x.303 Browning Mk.II (W) 4x20mm Hispano Mk.II (W)
VI	Hawker Typhoon	Sabre I Sabre IIA Sabre IIB Sabre IIC	12x.303 Browning Mk.II (W) 4x20mm Hispano Mk.II (W)
VII	Hawker Tempest V	Sabre IIA Sabre IIB Sabre V	4x20mm Hispano Mk.II (W) 4x20mm Hispano Mk.V (W)
VIII	Hawker P.1030	Eagle	4x20mm Hispano (W)
IX	Westland Wyvern	Eagle Clyde Python	4x20mm Hispano Mk.V (W)
X	Westland W.36	Avon

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 22 October 2018 - 01:55 PM.

[hoom]

Rest of the UK Hawker multirole line is announced

 

https://worldofwarpl...s/update-2-0-9/

• Hawker Typhoon — UK, Tier VII multirole fighter;
• Hawker Tempest — UK, Tier VIII multirole fighter;
• Hawker Sea Hawk — UK, Tier IX multirole fighter;
• Hawker Hunter — UK, Tier X multirole fighter.

 

Bit sad at Typhoon being T7, no Fury.

Sea Hawk is typically ugly for T9 jet fighters but fits.

Hunter & Tempest yay!

 

Edit: stats/modules at https://worldofwarpl...planes/gb/tree/

Tempest V with a 3000hp Sabre in top config, actually looks a bit slow but hopefully that monster engine gives high acceleration -> maybe higher effective speeds.

 

Sea Hawk is basically worse in every way than Attacker.

Edited by hoom, 20 December 2018 - 02:08 AM.

[J311yfish]

Thanks for the update, will revise!

 

 

[J311yfish]

Update

-- moved Hawker Typhoon and Tempest to indicated tiers VII and VIII

-- moved Hawker Sea Fury to tier VIII Alternates

-- moved Hawker P.V.3 from tier III Alternates to Premium

-- torpedo bombers and dive bombers still need some refinement

-- medium bombers and heavy bombers still need some refinement

-- Meteor, Vampire/Venom/Vixen progression, if any, needs refinement

-- added Short Sunderland to tier V -- the heavily-armed flying boats (UK and Japan) could be a low-altitude counterpart to USA flying fortresses

 

Overview

 

Edited by J311yfish, 22 December 2018 - 02:18 AM.