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[spoiler] what the British tech tree could look like

United Kingdom Royal Air Force Fairey Bristol Supermarine Hawker Gloster De Havilland Westland Blackburn

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J311yfish #41 Posted 21 November 2015 - 03:17 PM

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Supertest Digest #3 -- Supermarine Seafang -- Tier VIII multirole fighter

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J311yfish #42 Posted 23 April 2017 - 04:50 PM

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Hawker rumors

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J311yfish #43 Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:52 PM

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Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

 

Induction date -- Aircraft -- Role

04/1933 -- Westland Wapiti -- Recon & Army Co-op

__/1940 -- Hawker Hart -- Recon & Army Co-op

__/1940 -- Hawker Audax -- Coastal Defense

03/1941 -- Atlanta Transport & De Havilland DH.98 Dragon Rapide -- Coastal Recon & Defense

__/____ -- De Havilland DH.82 Tiger Moth -- Trainer

08/1941 -- Westland Lysander -- Recon

01/1942 -- Bristol Blenheim -- recon & Coastal Defense

06/1942 -- Hawker Hurricane II B

03/1942 -- Harvard I & II -- Trainer

02/1943 -- Vultee Vengeance I -- Dive Bomber

03/1944 -- Vultee Vengeance III -- Dive Bomber

10/1944 -- Supermarine Spitfire VIII -- Fighter

__/1944 -- Hawker Hurricane II -- Recon & Army Co-op -- (No 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10 Squadrons)

__/1944 -- Supermarine Spitfire VIII -- Fighter -- (No 8 Squadron)

 

Growth of the IAF

1933 -- half squadron

1936 -- 1 squadron

1940 -- 3 squadrons

1941 -- 5 squadrons

1942 -- 6 squadrons

1943 -- 7 squadrons

1944 -- >9 squadrons

 

Source:  Indian Air Force in Wars (Kindle Edition), by Air Vice Marshal Arun Kumar Tiwary (2013 Lancer)


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PzrCanuck #44 Posted 30 June 2017 - 03:53 PM

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Jelly fish-

nice presentation, wishful thinking , though

WG doesn't give a damn

 



J311yfish #45 Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:27 PM

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Much revision on the way with excellent new sources:

 

-- The British Fighter Since 1912, by Peter Lewis (1979 Putnam)

-- Supermarine Aircraft Since 1914, by C.F. Andrews & E.B. Morgan (1981 Putnam)

 

^ The existing tree and premiums will be substantiated with historical context. 

 

-- Hawker Aircraft Since 1920​, by Francis K Mason (1991 Putnam)

 

^ Then the Hawker line will be clearly identified down to a module level. 

 

-- Fairey Aircraft Since 1915, by H.A. Taylor (1988 Putnam)

-- Shorts Aircraft Since 1900, by C.H. Barnes, revised by Derek N. James (1989 Putnam)

-- more

 

^ Then the aircraft progression of the Fleet Air Arm will be clearly identified.​


Edited by J311yfish, 03 October 2017 - 10:00 PM.

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jack_wdw #46 Posted 14 September 2017 - 02:14 PM

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Can't believe the british have such a small tree.
There are so many british planes that deserve a spot in this game.

First of all, give us that hawker tree. Unbelievable that it's not in the game.

Second, erase those two never-weres bristols at Tier III and IV.
Those spots should always been occupied by the Gladiator (III) and the Hurricane MkI (IV).
 

J311yfish #47 Posted 15 September 2017 - 12:19 AM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 14 September 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

First of all, give us that hawker tree. Unbelievable that it's not in the game.

 

I believe that the tech trees have already been constructed, at least on paper, and that the rollout of new lines, and selection of premiums, is both strategic and deliberate.  I believe that the Hawker line (among others), has been deliberately held in reserve -- remember, the introduction of bombers implies also bomber interceptors, and the Hawker Fury was game-changing interceptor for the RAF.  For Japan, there are interceptor lines for both the Army (Ki-44) and the Navy (J2M) that have yet to be introduced as well.

 

View Postjack_wdw, on 14 September 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

Second, erase those two never-weres bristols at Tier III and IV.
Those spots should always been occupied by the Gladiator (III) and the Hurricane MkI (IV).

 

The selection of Bristol 133 and Bristol 146 actually make sense for the line in which they are presented, but no one is going to know that because the text accompanying each airplane is very simplified.

 

For example, the Bristol 133 description:

-- "Underwent trials in the summer of 1934. The first aircraft with retractable landing gear proposed to the Royal Air Force."

 

^ okay, an opportunity to tell an interesting story has been missed.

 

What they could have said, based on the authoritative Putnam narrative (something like):

-- "A private venture prototype considered to be the most advanced of those designs submitted for Specification F.7/30.  However, the single prototype crashed 03/08/1935, leaving Bristol without an entry in the competition, and the contract was ultimately awarded to the Gloster Gladiator."

 

The Bristol 146 description:

-- "Went through trials in 1938 as a new fighter for the Royal Air Force, but was considered inferior to the Hawker Hurricane and Supermarine Spitfire.​"

 

^ again, a missed opportunity.

 

What they could have said, based on the authoritative Putnam narrative (something like):

-- "Though eclipsed by the development of Hurricane and Spitfire, the Bristol 146 featured a sliding bubble canopy that was to be adopted almost universally by fighters for some years afterwards."


Edited by J311yfish, 15 September 2017 - 12:23 AM.

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J311yfish #48 Posted 03 October 2017 - 10:03 PM

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Update 10/2017

-- historical context added for many aircraft

-- working on Hawker (related post on British multirole line)

-- working on Fairey / Blackburn / De Havilland line (Swordfish --> Sea Vixen)

-- may add medium bombers leading to English Electric Canberra (IX/X)


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J311yfish #49 Posted 05 November 2017 - 01:36 PM

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from a related post in which the Tier X endpoint is defined:

 

View PostJ311yfish, on 04 November 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

 

^ That is not exactly correct.

 

Tier IX -- Gloster P.228

-- there is not much detail about this design except that it was a descendant of the Meteor

-- one of many design projects developed during 1947, ultimately superseded by specification leading to Javelin

Tier X -- Gloster Javelin

-- the Javelin was a continuation of incremental developments from the Meteor, by way of the P.228

-- supersonic in a dive, along with De Havilland Sea Vixen, Hawker Hunter, Supermarine Swift

​-- though the prototype first flight was 11/26/1951, the version in game with Sapphire Sa.7 engines did not actually fly until 09/30/1955.

-- specification issued 06/10/1948, construction began04/1949, first flight 11/26/1951, ordered in quantity 06/07/1952, 2nd prototype first flight 08/20/1952, 3rd prototype first flight 03/07/1953 (armed), 4th prototype first flight 01/14/1954, last prototype first flight 07/20/1954, 1st production first flight 07/22/1954, XA560, the first Javelin to have reheated Sapphire Sa.7 engines [Sa.7R 12,300 lb thrust above 20,000 ft altitude] which flew for the first time on [09/30/1955], 1st delivery to the RAF 12/30/1955; intensive 8-week flying program began 02/29/1956.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Tier IX -- Ilyushin IL-40

-- design study 1950-1951, prototype complete 02/1953, first flight 03/07/1953, acceptance trial 03/1954.

Tier X -- Ilyushin IL-40P

-- (second prototype of IL-40) officially endorsed 10/16/1954, completed early 1955, first flight 02/15/1955, acceptance trials 10/12/1955, five produced by spring 1956, canceled 04/13/1956.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Based on the above, the guidelines for Tier X appear to be:

1) not supersonic in level flight (<1234.8 km/h)

2) first flight before end of Korean War (07/27/1953)

3) exceptions made for design continuity from Tier IX

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources:

-- OKB Ilyushin - A History of the Design Bureau and its Aircraft, by Yefim Gordon, Dmitriy Komissarov, Sergey Komissarov (Midland 2004)

-- Gloster Aircraft Company, by Derek James (2014 Fonthill Media)

​-- Gloster Javelin, by Tony Buttler (Hall Park 1996)

 


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J311yfish #50 Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:22 PM

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Update 11/2017

-- working on Hawker, Fairey, De Havilland

 

 

BLUE BOX -- Hawker

-- this method makes use of the excellent suggestion (from this thread) to use the 4-gun Gloster Gladiator and 8-gun Gloster F.5/34 as a lead-in to the Hawker Hurricane.

-- Gloster Gladiator concluded to be Tier III based on close comparison to Grumman F2F, F3F, Seversky P-35, Fairey Fantome, Arado 197, Gregor FDB-1, Fiat CR.42.

-- Gloster F.5/34 resembles the Gladiator, has engine continuity with the Bristol Mercury, and was developed to same specification as the Hurricane as the Hurricane evolved (through F.5/34).

-- Hawker Tornado sidelined as a potential Tier VI premium

 

LIGHT BLUE -- Fairey, Blackburn, De Havilland

-- the idea here is to represent the evolution of strike capability for the Fleet Air Arm.  Is it possible to go from Swordfish torpedo bomber and/or the Skua dive bomber to the Sea Vixen?  If so, what would that look like?

-- the Seal is one of the precursors to the Swordfish

-- the Swordfish is arguably one of the epic aircraft of WWII

-- the Albacore is a successor to the Swordfish, though they continued to operate together

-- the Barracuda is the successor to the Albacore

-- the Firebrand is a single-seat strike fighter

-- the Vampire made the first-ever jet landing on a carrier and evolved from the interceptor role to fighter-bomber

-- the Venom was likewise used as a fighter-bomber

-- the Sea Vixen was for a time developed to the same specification as the Gloster Javelin

 

MEDIUM BLUE -- Hawker, Blackburn, Fairey

-- Hawker Demon and Blackburn Skua are both two-seat multi-role aircraft.  The idea here is to carry forward the two-seat fighter concept for continuity as far as possible.  The Sea Vixen is also a two-seat aircraft.

-- the P.4/34 was submitted for a specification meant to replace the Blackburn Skua, but was not accepted

-- the P.4/34 evolved into the Fulmar via another specification.  The Fulmar was the first Fleet Air Arm fighter to have 8 guns.  It was also responsible for approximately 1/3 of the FAA's wartime victories.

-- the Firefly followed the Fulmar formula and was produced in 22 types and sub-types from 1941 to 1956.  Further along this line could be anti-submarine aircraft such as the Fairey Gannet, which is so far not relevant to the game.

 

So, here are 3 possible avenues to Vampire/Venom/Vixen:

1) as continuation of Fleet Air Arm multirole aircraft identified above (Fairey, Blackburn, etc.)

2) as an off-shoot of the De Havilland Mosquito and Hornet

3) as an off-shoot of the Hawker line via engine designer Frank Halford.  Halford developed the Napier Sabre piston engine as well as the De Havilland Goblin jet engine.

 

Other notes:

-- Westland Whirlwind removed from progression to be a potential Tier V premium (low-altitude attack fighter).  It is related to the Westland Welkin but there is not much between them to substantiate bridging across multiple tiers.

-- Westland Welkin removed from progression to be a potential Tier VII premium (high-altitude bomber interceptor).

 

That's all for now.  Future updates:

-- details -- modules, production counts, unique characteristics and attributes

-- English Electric Canberra bomber

-- Gloster Meteor 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 09 November 2017 - 02:00 AM.

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J311yfish #51 Posted 16 November 2017 - 12:22 AM

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Update 11/15/17

 

Hawker

-- Hawker Fury replaced with Gloster Gauntlet; it is a better lead-in to Gloster Gladiator

 

Fairey/Blackburn

-- Fairey Swordfish precursor -- Fairey Gordon (RAF)/Seal (FAA), or Blackburn Shark.  Many of the Swordfish were actually built by Blackburn.

-- Fairey Albacore successor -- Supermarine Type 322, or a Blackburn project that did not materialize (B-21 of 1937, B-29 of 1939, B-36 of 1938).

-- Blackburn Firebrand successor -- Blackburn Firecrest (development of Firebrand, 3 built), or Westland Wyvern (127 built), similar concepts explored by Fairey (such as Spearfish, 5 built)

-- Westland Wyvern successor -- unidentified jet project ...

 

Fairey/De Havilland

-- Blackburn Skua successor -- Blackburn Roc modification of Skua first flown 22 months later; the turret fighter concept epitomized by the Boulton-Paul Defiant (Tier V est. based on Merlin engine)

-- Fairey Fulmar precursor -- Fairey P.4/34 (direct lineage), or Boulton-Paul Defiant (continuation of turret fighter concept, 360-degrees, which would now be playable with 2.0 update)

-- Fairey Firefly successor -- it makes sense to me that a continuation of the 2-seat fighter, night fighter, reconnaissance, strike is carried forward with De Havilland (Sea) Vampire, (Sea) Venom, Sea Vixen

 

This is so far to me a good rough draft (chronological, by specification), but to take it to the next level, the characteristics and attributes of each aircraft need to be identified (as was done for Japan), so that development relationships are rendered very clear.  

 

future updates

-- De Havilland (Sea) Vampire/ (Sea) Venom/Sea Vixen -- evolution of the specifications

-- Gloster Meteor context; Westland Whirlwind to English Electric Canberra by way of Gloster Meteor?

-- characteristics/attributes of FAA aircraft (Ex: Youngman flaps, Frise ailerons, etc.)

-- cancelled engines (Rolls-Royce Exe, Rolls-Royce Vulture, Fairey P.24, etc.).

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 05:43 PM.

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J311yfish #52 Posted Yesterday, 08:43 AM

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Tier II Alternates

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 09:33 PM.

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J311yfish #53 Posted Yesterday, 08:49 PM

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Tier III alternates

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 09:36 PM.

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J311yfish #54 Posted Yesterday, 08:50 PM

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Tier IV Alternates

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 08:55 PM.

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J311yfish #55 Posted Yesterday, 08:51 PM

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Tier V Alternates

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 09:46 PM.

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J311yfish #56 Posted Yesterday, 08:53 PM

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Tier VI Alternates

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 08:57 PM.

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J311yfish #57 Posted Yesterday, 08:55 PM

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Tier VII Alternates

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 10:01 PM.

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J311yfish #58 Posted Yesterday, 08:58 PM

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Tier VIII Alternates

 


Edited by J311yfish, Yesterday, 09:00 PM.

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J311yfish #59 Posted Yesterday, 08:59 PM

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Tier IX/X Alternates

 

Omitted

 


Edited by J311yfish, Today, 05:13 PM.

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J311yfish #60 Posted Yesterday, 09:01 PM

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ph

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