Jump to content


[spoiler] what the British tech tree could look like

United Kingdom Royal Air Force Fairey Bristol Supermarine Hawker Gloster De Havilland Westland Blackburn

  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

J311yfish #21 Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:59 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Update

-- Hawker line details essentially done; generally 10-30 km/h faster than Bristol/Supermarine line.

-- project expanded to entire United Kingdom in order to figure out where/how Gloster Meteor, De Havilland Vampire, etc. might fit into the bigger picture.

-- Australia, Canada, India, etc. will be treated separately towards the end of the project.

 

Future updates:

-- resolve variables (might be possible to split into parallel tracks, interceptor (Fury --> High Speed Fury --> Hurricane I) and heavy (Demon --> something --> Hurricane II)

-- closer look at 9 or more manufacturers


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


tyy #22 Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:58 PM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 27017 battles
  • 435
  • [BLIST] BLIST
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012
Vicker's Venom along with C.W. 21 Demons are two little known but quite neat aircraft that would make nice premiums

J311yfish #23 Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:48 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View Posttyy, on 30 July 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Vicker's Venom along with C.W. 21 Demons are two little known but quite neat aircraft that would make nice premiums

 

That is true, though CW-21 might show up in China due to the limited opportunities for progression there.


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


Raindrops #24 Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:16 PM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2989 battles
  • 780
  • [EDF] EDF
  • Member since:
    02-05-2012

Getting it steadily filled in... Good, good. I would like to note that the Defiant - while interesting, it really wouldn't have a place in this game with only a turret for armament. Interesting concept, but not good for a game based on dogfighting and without player control of the turret. Even historically, this proved to be a flawed concept for "fighter" design. Same goes for the Blackburn Roc, which was easily eclipsed by its cousin, the Skua. This is probably why the P.92 was ultimately cancelled as well.

Just my thoughts on it.


Edited by Raindrops, 31 July 2014 - 12:16 PM.

I never said I was good.

USA needs GA too.


J311yfish #25 Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:10 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Meteor/Vampire Mystery Update:

 

 

1. The missing Meteors

-- The current heavy line is composed primarily of two-seat twin-engine aircraft and circumvents the Meteor by way of the Westland P.1056 and Gloster P.228 (a Meteor analogue).

-- Preliminary work indicates that another heavy line composed of single-seat twin-engine fighters is possible from Tier IV to X (Gloster/Westland).

-- It is possible to use the Gloster Meteor development in jet form as early as Tier VII (as indicated by Meteor Mk.I premium), and as late as Tier X (as indicated by engines evaluated on Meteor airframe).

-- the decision to use Gloster Javelin as the Tier X in the current heavy line might suggest that the Meteor (or some form of it) is to be taken to Tier X, or that the line might transition to the English Electric Canberra (designer previously worked for Westland).  Given the Meteor's use in a ground attack role it would not be unreasonable.

 

2. The missing Vampire/Venom/Vixens

-- Vampire/Venom/Vixen were also circumnavigated, so the question is where they fit in relative to Meteor, and whether or not a line of development is possible or necessary leading up to them at Tier VIII, IX, X.

-- There are essentially 2 ways to complete a De Havilland line -- on the basis of engines (Napier piston engines) or role (carrier-based strike fighter):

 

  1) From an engine development point of view, the De Havilland jet engines (Goblin, Ghost) were developed by Frank Halford.  Halford's career as an engine designer did not begin with jets, but rather began with De Havilland Gipsy, Gipsy Major, and continued with Napier & Sons in the development of Napier Rapier, Napier Dagger, Napier Sabre.  The Sabre engine was most famously utilized in the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest, but Napier engines were also used by the De Havilland DH.77, the Martin-Baker MB.2, Martin Baker MB.3, and Blackburn Firebrand.  (Martin-Baker MB.5 deviates by using a Rolls-Royce Griffon but it is a remarkable aircraft without a home if omitted on that point alone).

 

  2) From the carrier-based-strike-fighter point-of-view, the line becomes more flexible about what it can include, but then it becomes very difficult to provide a "uniform feel" to the line.  This method might include Fairey/Blackburn fighters and/or light bombers.

 

  3) some combination of the above

 

-- If Vampire/Venom/Vixen are instead added as a minor branch, then it would make the most sense (in my opinion) as a minor branch coming from Hawker Tempest (based on the Napier engines also designed by Halford).

 

3. Moving forward

-- resolving De Havilland / Airspeed ... possibly augmented by Martin-Baker / Fairey / Blackburn

-- accounting for alternates

-- filling in details

-- refinement


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


Carl_the_Cuttlefish #26 Posted 11 August 2014 - 06:17 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 3930 battles
  • 1,416
  • Member since:
    11-06-2012

Cool Jellyfish! I don't know if an upgraded Venom would be tier X though cause the Vixen seems outside the scope of the game. Plus it had two engines so that would maybe put it back in HF ranking, but maybe it could work cause wikipedia said initally it had cannons. It would look cool as heck though. I say WG nerf it a little so that it fits into tier X as a fighter!!!

 

My thoughts is that the Gloster HF line would start from the Beaufighter, and do an either/or split at the P.1056 and the Meteor, both linking back up to the P.228. The Hornet would have the choice of going to the P.1056 or to the Vampire to finish the Dehavilland line. They could add the earlier fighters/heavy fighters later. I say they add these planes soon!!! I really want them! More than the Hurricanes to be honest.


Edited by S01836775, 11 August 2014 - 06:33 PM.

"It's about to get real inky in here!!!"

- Carl the Cuttlefish, the artist formerly known as S01836775, now in an all new user friendly format.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


vamrat #27 Posted 11 August 2014 - 09:10 PM

    Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 2038 battles
  • 70
  • [FOD] FOD
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012
Hopefully after all the work you've done the devs decide to make these lines!  I agree with S02985y0974260847265 that having the DH Vampire come off the Hornet would probably require the least amount of work to get rolling on.  Perhaps have the Typhoon and Hurricane come off of one of the existing lines too as a branch off to get them going soon - with the Typhoon possibly operating in a GA role?

J311yfish #28 Posted 02 October 2014 - 09:21 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013
Designs
 
Fuselage

 

Wings

 

Tail

 

Undercarriage

 

Power Plant

 

Accomodation

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 13 October 2016 - 03:27 PM.

Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


Carl_the_Cuttlefish #29 Posted 05 October 2014 - 03:05 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 3930 battles
  • 1,416
  • Member since:
    11-06-2012

J3llyfish, i just read all your stuff on the Hawker line, but I'm still trying to figure out how they would fly in game? My guess is really low altitude, great firepower, weak HP's, average manuverabilty pretty much everywhere, slow optimal airspeeds but good rate of climb.

 

What are you thinking though?


"It's about to get real inky in here!!!"

- Carl the Cuttlefish, the artist formerly known as S01836775, now in an all new user friendly format.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


J311yfish #30 Posted 05 October 2014 - 07:51 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View PostS01836775, on 05 October 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

J3llyfish, i just read all your stuff on the Hawker line, but I'm still trying to figure out how they would fly in game? 

 

I don't have the information to substantiate a proper summary, and I don't like to guess, but I think it is fair to say that their strength relative to Bristol/Supermarine will be speed/climb.  The information above substantiates that.  I don't know what their weakness might be but I would be surprised to find it show up as lower durability or lower altitude.  If altitude band is informed by engines, then I would expect that tiers I-IV and IX-X might be consistent with other British aircraft in-game.  For the larger Napier engines it might be appropriate to look sideways to the Americans for a benchmark.  The carrier-borne aircraft might have lower stall speeds (as would be desirable for landing on a carrier) but I can't substantiate that other than to say that it is logical.  Overall I would expect it to be a very strong line with no glaring weakness.

 


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #31 Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:11 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Multirole implications for United Kingdom?

 

Spoiler

 

^ that would certainly allow them to work around the Hawker Tier III problem while keeping Gloster intact.  Fairey/Blackburn might in there prior to De Havilland, will revisit eventually.

 


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


Heh #32 Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:47 PM

    Sky Whale Historian

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 0 battles
  • 11,960
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

View PostJ311yfish, on 14 October 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Multirole implications for United Kingdom?

 

Spoiler

 

^ that would certainly allow them to work around the Hawker Tier III problem while keeping Gloster intact.  Fairey/Blackburn might in there prior to De Havilland, will revisit eventually.

 

 

Tying Hawker in there is a nice observation. The Typhoon was used as a ground pounder as well as the Hunter (it's a fighter-bomber k?).
Heh - aeromarine biologist

View Posthahiha, on , said:


OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

Raindrops #33 Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:55 PM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2989 battles
  • 780
  • [EDF] EDF
  • Member since:
    02-05-2012

Geh, I was going to do a "multi-role in 1.6 and the implications thereof" thread, but you kinda beat me to it for the most part.

 

...Eh, since there is still room for German/Russian discussion, I'll do it anyways - but I'll probably be stealing your British/Japanese comments anyways.


I never said I was good.

USA needs GA too.


Carl_the_Cuttlefish #34 Posted 01 December 2014 - 04:11 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 3930 battles
  • 1,416
  • Member since:
    11-06-2012
Hmm. the addition of the Fantome as a tier IV prem kinda throws a wrench in the Fairey part of the Dehavilland line :(.

"It's about to get real inky in here!!!"

- Carl the Cuttlefish, the artist formerly known as S01836775, now in an all new user friendly format.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


J311yfish #35 Posted 04 December 2014 - 09:42 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View PostS01836775, on 01 December 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

Hmm. the addition of the Fantome as a tier IV prem kinda throws a wrench in the Fairey part of the Dehavilland line :(.

 

Well not necessarily.  It might depend on how Vampire/Venom/Vixen are classified.  If they are considered to be multirole then you may see Fairey Swordfish, Barracuda, Spearfish, etc. and maybe Blackburn to fill gaps if any.

 

It has been months since I have looked at it in detail but I remember being stymied trying to make progression clean.  That and being unable to find any information to justify the current heavy line made me decide that they can and will do anything they want with the British line.  I have not been able to find any reasonable explanation for Vampire/Venom and Meteor to be circumvented in favor of P.1056 and P.228, for example.  Anyway, that's why this project is halted indefinitely.


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


losttwo #36 Posted 04 December 2014 - 09:51 PM

    which way do we go?

  • Community Ace
  • 29924 battles
  • 12,609
  • [S-S-G] S-S-G
  • Member since:
    05-15-2012

You have always done great work and these threads.

I have enjoyed watching you work through each tree with your idea's.

Now can yo us how us what a faster queue time would look like...roflmao



Carl_the_Cuttlefish #37 Posted 05 December 2014 - 02:33 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 3930 battles
  • 1,416
  • Member since:
    11-06-2012

View PostJ311yfish, on 04 December 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

 

Well not necessarily.  It might depend on how Vampire/Venom/Vixen are classified.  If they are considered to be multirole then you may see Fairey Swordfish, Barracuda, Spearfish, etc. and maybe Blackburn to fill gaps if any.

 

It has been months since I have looked at it in detail but I remember being stymied trying to make progression clean.  That and being unable to find any information to justify the current heavy line made me decide that they can and will do anything they want with the British line.  I have not been able to find any reasonable explanation for Vampire/Venom and Meteor to be circumvented in favor of P.1056 and P.228, for example.  Anyway, that's why this project is halted indefinitely.

 

True. The brit HF tree has always puzzled me. It's not the most logical progression. The Dehavillands would have made sense, but they aren't HF's, and Meteors would have made sense if they added the Javelin as an alternate tier X. I have no idea why the P.1056 is even on the tree, although I like it in the game.

 

But that would be cool then if they did the Swordfish family as the early tech tree path. I guess I didn't think about them being multirole and not fighters.


"It's about to get real inky in here!!!"

- Carl the Cuttlefish, the artist formerly known as S01836775, now in an all new user friendly format.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


J311yfish #38 Posted 06 May 2015 - 08:39 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

First Public Test of Update 1.8

Aircraft Balancing Adjustments

U.K.
  • Fantome — Increased manoeuvrability and speed characteristics, increased HP and weapons damage.

 Premium and Gift Aircraft Available for Developers and Supertesters for Testing Purposes Only:

  • Lockheed XP-58 Chain Lightning — U.S. Tier VIII Heavy Fighter;
  • Supermarine Seafang F.32 — British Tier VIII Multirole Fighter;
  • SNCAC NC 1070 — French Tier VIII Attack Aircraft;
  • Ilyushin IL-10M — Chinese Tier VIII Attack Aircraft.

Edited by J311yfish, 06 May 2015 - 08:46 PM.

Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures


Raindrops #39 Posted 09 May 2015 - 04:18 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 2989 battles
  • 780
  • [EDF] EDF
  • Member since:
    02-05-2012
Fantome? As in, Fairy Fantome? I honestly was unaware we had that in the game, but I did come across this.

I never said I was good.

USA needs GA too.


J311yfish #40 Posted 12 November 2015 - 01:34 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 17870 battles
  • 1,016
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View PostJ311yfish, on 09 August 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Meteor/Vampire Mystery Update:

 

2. The missing Vampire/Venom/Vixens

-- Vampire/Venom/Vixen were also circumnavigated, so the question is where they fit in relative to Meteor, and whether or not a line of development is possible or necessary leading up to them at Tier VIII, IX, X.

-- There are essentially 2 ways to complete a De Havilland line -- on the basis of engines (Napier piston engines) or role (carrier-based strike fighter):

 

  1) From an engine development point of view, the De Havilland jet engines (Goblin, Ghost) were developed by Frank Halford.  Halford's career as an engine designer did not begin with jets, but rather began with De Havilland Gipsy, Gipsy Major, and continued with Napier & Sons in the development of Napier Rapier, Napier Dagger, Napier Sabre.  The Sabre engine was most famously utilized in the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest, but Napier engines were also used by the De Havilland DH.77, the Martin-Baker MB.2, Martin Baker MB.3, and Blackburn Firebrand.  (Martin-Baker MB.5 deviates by using a Rolls-Royce Griffon but it is a remarkable aircraft without a home if omitted on that point alone).

 

  2) From the carrier-based-strike-fighter point-of-view, the line becomes more flexible about what it can include, but then it becomes very difficult to provide a "uniform feel" to the line.  This method might include Fairey/Blackburn fighters and/or light bombers.

 

  3) some combination of the above

 

-- If Vampire/Venom/Vixen are instead added as a minor branch, then it would make the most sense (in my opinion) as a minor branch coming from Hawker Tempest (based on the Napier engines also designed by Halford).

 

Polish designers participate in development of the Vampire, Venom, and Vixen for United Kingdom -- could this help to explain the missing De Havilland jets?

 

Poland


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users