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[spoiler] what the Finnish tech tree could look like

Finland Finland tech tree Finnish Air Force Fokker Gladiator Hurricane Buffalo

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J311yfish #41 Posted 04 December 2014 - 09:43 PM

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Production locations/facilities
 
Valtion Lentokonetehdas (The State Aircraft Factory; a.k.a. VL)
Works: Tampere
Chief Designer: Dipl. Engineer A. Ylinen
 
-- "This factory supplies the Air Force with various types of military aircraft, some of which are built under license.  During the past year the Factory has built a number of Fokker C.X. two-seat reconnaissance biplanes and Fokker D.XXI single-seat fighter monoplanes under license and the Factory designed the 'Tuisku' training biplane has been produced in quantity for the Air Force.  Its latest production is the 'Viima' school biplane. // All reconditioning of aircraft and aeroengines is done at the Factory, which also supplies aeroplanes and aero accessories to the Finnish Light Aeroplane Clubs and private owners. // Considerable attention has been devoted to the investigation of the qualities of home produced materials, particularly timber.  Finnish pine has proved to be eminently suitable for aircraft use as the result of tests made in the Factory's laboraties show.  Finnish bakelite-glude plywood floats, which are largely in use in Finland, have proved themselves to be strong, light, economical and resistant to deterioration. // Another development is the design and production of skis, which have been widely used in Finland and the Arctic. // During the past year the Factory has produced adjustable airscrews of bakelite-glued plywood." (Jane's 1938, 100c)
 
-- "This is an era of national self-sufficiency, and the exhibition [Finnish International Aeronautical Exhibition 1938] certainly shows that some of the countries in Europe which have always been looked upon as permanent customers for the products of specialized industries [aircraft] will presently need to import such products no longer.  Finland herself has at Tampere (Tammerfors) the most up-to-date of aircraft factories [1938].  This is owned and run by the State and the exhibits show that the designers and craftsmen there have little or nothing to learn from the rest of the world. // After the concentration on the manufacture of machines under license -- and it is significant, remembering that timber is the country's primary product, that these machines have been almost exclusively of Fokker origin -- the State factory is now designing and building its own machines.  The first two of these have been training types, one (the Tuisku [Lynx 250hp]) for advanced military work and the other (the Viima [Siemens 150hp]) for primary and aerobatic training ... At present [1938] the only engine to be built in Finland is the Bristol, for which the Tampella Company has the license, and this firm exhibits a Mercury on its stand. // The State factory's outstanding exhibit is, however, a Fokker C.10 general-purpose biplane with a Bristol Pegasus engine ... the factory's own types have, like the Fokker, welded steel fuselages and wooden wings, though the latter are fabric covered.  Beside the C.10 is an example of a wooden spar for the Fokker D.21 fighter, which is also being built under license.  Very shortly the factory, which also has the most modern equipment for metal construction, will be starting on a batch of Bristol Blenheims with which the Finnish Air Force has recently equipped a couple of squadrons. // In the stands behind the aircraft exhibits are examples of the work, in both wood and metal, carried out at the factory, including airscrews in various stages of construction and such specialized winter equipment as streamlined skis and engine heater plant.  A float designed for use with the Tuisku is also shown.  Thee floats can be produced for about £​200 the pair, so seaplane-minded owners might even turn to Finland for their equipment. // Other examples of Finnish self-sufficiency are the bombs and bomb gear by Tolfvan, and the sailplanes which provide mid-air decoration for the Hall, while suitably enthroned is Finland's first military aeroplane -- a Morane Parasol on skis, which was the gift of a Swedish baron, von Rosen, in 1919." [This article goes into greater detail on engines, airscrews, etc. displayed at the show] (Flight Global 05/19/1938, 484-485)
 

 
Tammerfors
Tammerfors Linne Och Jern-Manufaktur A.B.
Head Office: Tampere (Tammerfors)
Established: 1856
 
-- "This concern builds [as of 1938] Bristol 'Mercury' and 'Pegasus' engines under a license granted by the Bristol Aeroplane Co., Ltd., in 1935, to the Finnish Government.  It is one of the biggest and best equipped engineering organizations in Finland and its various productions, besides aero-motors and aero-motor test plants, include automatic aircraft and anti-aircraft guns, trench mortars, locomotives, large and small Diesel engines, and various industrial machinery." (Jane's 1938, 39d)
 

 

Ilmailuinsinöörien Kerho (Club of Aeronautical Engineers)

-- "The Club of Aeronautical Engineers of Finland, which was founded in 1933, is a sub-section of the Society of Finnish Technicians, and forms a connecting link between all engineers working in the Finnish aeronautical field. // The purposes of its activities are to promote interest in flying in Finland by designing inexpensive aeroplanes for civil flying and to make known by lecture or articles the progress of aeronautical development both at home and abroad.  The promotion of aeronautical education in Finland is also engaging the attention of the Club. // The Club has designed a single-seat light monoplane [the 'Viri'] under the direction of Dipl. Eng. A. Ylinen.  This machine, which is described and illustrated herewith, was built at the Aircraft Factory at Veljekset Karhumäki (Keljo)." (Jane's 1938, 101c)

 

Edited by J311yfish, 15 October 2016 - 05:34 PM.

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J311yfish #42 Posted 19 July 2015 - 06:18 PM

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Airfoils

-- this is just another way to look at data

-- source -- unverified information

 

Line 1

 

Line 2

 

Line 3

 

Line 4

 


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seekerjuanchis #43 Posted 20 July 2015 - 10:55 PM

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its  a nice idea, but you need more tier Xs

J311yfish #44 Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:02 AM

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A note on aircraft armament in Finland:

 

"Finland produced a range of heavy weapons including the 12.7mm LKk/42, four which were mounted in the cowling of the VL Myrsky fighter, in service between 1944 and 1947.  Little information seems to have survived about this weapon, except that it was belt-fed and unpopular because of inaccuracy problems caused by a tendency to overheat.  Cannon were also produced in Finland by Lahti, using his own 20x113 ammunition, but despite some reports that these saw airborne service in the Russo-Finnish wars it appears that they were only used by the navy, fitted to patrol boats.  The Finns certainly used a wide variety of equipment including some 12.7mm Brownings converted for aircraft, 20mm MG-FF, MG 151 and ShVAK, and according to one report some Oerlikon FFL.  However, it is difficult to determine which aircraft used the guns, as it appears that individual planes received a variety of armament fittings, depending, presumably, on whatever was to hand." (Williams, 179)

 

Source:

Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces, by Anthony G. Williams (2000 Airlife):


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J311yfish #45 Posted 09 September 2016 - 08:38 PM

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Production values in yellow.  Acquisition (purchased, captured, etc.) in tan.


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20thCenturyLtd #46 Posted 09 September 2016 - 10:37 PM

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Boy would I just love to see this happen. And, if WG had the courage to do the correct markings, it would be that much more awesome !

 

 


Bubba_Zanetti #47 Posted 09 September 2016 - 10:39 PM

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I hereby Moomintroll this thread!

 


 


J311yfish #48 Posted 04 June 2017 - 05:47 PM

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Using a new source, Flying Guns of World War II, by Anthony G. Williams and Dr. Emmanuel Gustin (2003 Airlife), confirmed armament for:

 

-- Mö​rko Moraani (1943) -- Tier IV est.

-- Myrsky II (1944) -- Tier V est.

-- Pyö​rremyrsky (1945) -- Tier VI est.

 

Williams mentions briefly the Winter War (1939-1940) between Finland and USSR:

-- "Due in no small part to the Stalinist purges, the Soviet aviation industry was falling behind.  In 1938 and 1939 a recovery was initiated, but the 1939-1940 Winter War with Finland revealed the weakness of the USSR." (Williams, 109)

-- "...in the winter of 1939 the Suomen Ilmavoimat​ had a collection of 145 mostly obsolescent aircraft.  The only ones that could be called fairly modern were 14 Bristol Blenheim bombers and 36 Fokker D XXI fighters.  This fighter of dutch origin was license-built in Finland with [2x7.7mm FN-Browning (F) and 2x7.7mm FN-Browning (W)].  A Finnish development with an American engine, which entered service in 1941, reverted to four wing guns.  The Finnish preference seems to have been to install fuselage guns if possible, as was done on the fighters developed in Finland during the later war years." (Williams, 110)

-- "New and old aircraft arrived to reinforce the Finns while the war was being fought.  The first Fiat G.50's finally arrived in [12/1939], while France and Britain supplied 30 MS.406's and an equal number of Gladiator Mk.II's. (The MS.406's were initially delivered without their 20mm engine cannon, and had a 7.5mm MAC 1934 on the centerline position instead.  The 20mm HS.404 was fitted after the Winter War, and saw combat during the Continuation War.)  The Red air forces suffered humiliating setbacks despite a theoretical numerical superiority of almost 10:1, which increased to 20:1 by the end of the war.  The Finns claimed a very high kill:loss ratio, and even taking into account the normal tendencies towards overclaiming they were astonishingly successful.  For the USSR it was, despite the ultimate victory, a display of great qualitative deficiency, which caused bitter recriminations in the Kremlin.  It also stimulated German, French and British strategists who saw the defeat of the USSR as a step towards victory in the world war." (Williams, 110)

 

Williams also mentions the  Continuation War (1941-1944) between Finland and USSR:

-- "The outbreak of war between the USSR and Germany also resulted in a re-opening of hostilities with Finland, as the latter country sought to reverse the territorial concessions it had been forced to make after the Winter War.  This time the Finns were better equipped, mostly with aircraft ordered during the Winter War but delivered later.  German deliveries of aircraft also helped to build up strength." (Williams, 118)

-- "Arrivals at the very end of the Winter War had included the first Brewster B 239's, more or less equivalent to the F2A-1 of the US Navy, and armed with synchronized .30" and .50" Browning guns in the engine cowling and two more .50" guns in the wings.  In Finnish service, these aircraft were quite successful.  So successful indeed that it was attempted to build a copy of the B 239 in Finland, despite the age of the design.  The VL Humu was redesigned to employ a partially wooden construction and a captured Soviet M-63 engine, and armed with [3x12.7mm].  But when the prototype made its first flight, [08/1944], the program had already been terminated because of the obsolescence of the aircraft." (Williams, 118-119)

-- "Slightly more successful was the indigenously designed VL Myrsky​, which first flew [08/1943] and entered service in [summer 1944].  The Myrsky was superficially similar to the Fokker D XXI, apart from its retractable landing gear.  The Ilmavoimat​ had reservations about the strength of the ​Myrsky​'s mixed wood and metal construction, and the aircraft was employed on a limited scale.  The first prototype was armed with [2x12.7mm and 4x7.7mm], but the production version Myrsky II​ had the more powerful armament of [4x12.7mm LKk/42].  The armament installation was rather unusual, in that all four guns were installed in the top decking of the fuselage, above the (radial) engine.  Because the Myrsky​ was a low-powered fighter and therefore had a mediocre performance, the type of combat that suited it best was the turning dogfight, and for this its concentrated firepower was suitable.  However, the rate of fire of the synchronized guns was low and they tended to overheat." (Williams, 119)

-- The final Finnish development was the VL ​Pyörremyrsky​, powered by the German DB 605 engine and looking very much like a slightly larger and refined Bf 109G.  The Pyörremyrsky, like the Myrsky​, was of mixed construction; armament included a MG 151/20 engine cannon and two cowling-mounted LKk/42 guns.  The single prototype ... was finally flown after the end of the war." (Williams, 119)

-- "A far less ambitious but perhaps more practical project was the conversion of the remaining MS.406 and MG.410 fighters in the inventory.  A captured M-105 engine was installed in the place of the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, and the HS.404 engine cannon was replaced by the MG 151/20.  Thus modified, the aircraft because known as the Mörkö Moraneor Ghost Morane, but only a handful were completed during the war.  The conversion continued post-war, with the Berezin UB or HS.404 taking the place of the unavailable MG 151/20 on some aircraft." (Williams, 119)


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