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[spoiler] what the Finnish tech tree could look like

Finland Finland tech tree Finnish Air Force Fokker Gladiator Hurricane Buffalo

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Neblin #21 Posted 03 July 2014 - 08:04 AM

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Ok, the Finnish armed forces have *never* been called a "swastika" by anyone Finnish... It's official name is the *Hakaristi*

 

The markings of the Finnish Defence Forces has its own story. The blue FAF markings were originally the symbol of luck of the family of Count von Rosen, who donated to the Finnish "White Army" its first plane,a Morane-Saulnier L fighter aircraft, in 1918 during the Civil War. It was adopted as the official national marking of the Finnish Air Forces and later on, the Army. The Finnish women's voluntary defence organization, the Lotta Svärd, also used this marking as its symbol and it also still appears in many Finnish medals and decorations, in a visually understated manner.


The Finnish marking has nothing to do with the Nazi party, Nazi ideology or fascism. Finns, like many other peoples, used it long before the Nazis. After the fall of the Third Reich, the Finnish Defence Forces abandoned the disreputable marking in favour of the new national marking; the blue and white roundel.

 

It's nice that you put up a disclaimer, but sad that in this age of having information at your fingertips, you had to!

 

Let history *be* history people!



Neblin #22 Posted 03 July 2014 - 08:05 AM

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Btw OP, keep up the good work! :great:

J311yfish #23 Posted 03 July 2014 - 04:10 PM

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Thanks, o7

 

1st minor update:

-- improved disclaimer

-- inventory still in progress, need to check other sources and resolve Tier VIII (2000hp ballpark or weak/early jet 1944+)

-- a rough placement is taking shape based on engines that are already in-game

-- in order to see how aircraft might be logically connected via technology, it will be necessary to look at fine details, I hope to be working on that next week.


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J311yfish #24 Posted 06 July 2014 - 07:24 PM

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Update:

-- tentative tree is up (Version 1.00)

-- Fighters I-VII are good, VIII-X need work

-- still working on the Attack line but that's the general idea


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Neblin #25 Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:11 AM

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You could add the Buffalo to that list, too...

 



J311yfish #26 Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:27 AM

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^ it's there as the B-239/Humu

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J311yfish #27 Posted 07 July 2014 - 05:54 PM

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Quick overview of engine relationships:

 

I have put these on the sideline as potential premiums:

 


Edited by J311yfish, 08 July 2014 - 03:55 PM.

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J311yfish #28 Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:58 PM

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This project is essentially done.  I have opted for the "maximum model" even though it goes against precedent in several ways:

 

Captured aircraft

The Finns did not just capture aircraft, they actually refurbished them and integrated them into their squadrons.  I have included known Soviet aircraft as a separate line for these reasons:

1) The Soviet technology was also utilized in the Humu (unlicensed Buffalo copy) and Morko-Moraani, so including Soviet aircraft explains that development.

2) The I-153 is so far not in-game.  It is essentially an I-15 with retractable landing gear to improve speed (much like the Hawk III when compared to the Hawk II).  It was also used in China.

3) It tells the story of the Finnish Air Force, which is something that I think makes it unique.

 

Other aircraft

Fokker G1.B was ordered by Finland but not actually delivered because the Germans captured or destroyed them while invading the Netherlands.  It isn't essential (there are alternatives identified for that tier and role), but it is a remarkable aircraft that otherwise doesn't have a home.

Valmet Vihuri I was not actually built, and I have not found much detail, but it was essentially to be a reverse-engineered Mosquito to be powered by Daimler-Benz DB605's.  If included it would stretch the heavy fighter concept one more tier.

Focke-Wulf 190 was actually flown from Immola, Finland by Germans as part of Detachment Kuhlmey.  Including it isn't essential, but it is there for 2 reasons:

1) it is a Fw 190 variant not currently in game, using 30mm cannons in an attack role

2) it continues the Morko-Moraani trend.  The MS.406 line is distinguished by its use of cannons (2 tiers earlier than the main Finnish line), and was used by the Finns for "train busting."  Both Morko-Moraani and Fw 190 use MG 151 (German technology), which is then continued with Bf 109G.  I have mapped it to convey that relationship.

Dornier Do 22K isn't essential either, but it continues the Hispano-Suiza trend and outside of Finland it probably wouldn't be considered for inclusion due to the abundance of German alternatives, but I speculate.  If Fokker G.IB isn't included, then Dornier Do 22K is one way to fill the spot, leading tangentially to MS.406 based on engine development.

Folland Midge is the prototype for Folland Gnat.  It wasn't actually developed in Finland, but I have put it there because the alternatives are trainers.  The Finns supposedly made modifications to the Folland Gnat, I just haven't been able to find any information on that so I'm leaving it as is.  I will probably come back to it at a later time.

 

That's about it.  Fun project.


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CrazyZouave #29 Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:15 PM

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I always enjoy reading your proposed tech trees...so many rare aircraft and such exhaustive research.  And this effort is particularly well done. I enjoyed looking the  amazing variety of Finnish aircraft.  A truly mind boggling array.  I just wouldn't want to be the maintenance officer.  The logistics for such a fleet would be daunting.  

 

BTW have you given any thought to what a US Medium bomber / attack tree would like?  I'd love to see your thoughts and my apologies if you have already posted.



J311yfish #30 Posted 15 July 2014 - 05:59 PM

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View PostCrazyZouave, on 14 July 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

BTW have you given any thought to what a US Medium bomber / attack tree would like?

 

The short answer is No.  I have avoided it because:

 

1) the inventory appears to be huge

2) it would replicate work being done by Raindrops

3) there is enough to keep me busy with refinement of smaller projects (each informs the other)

 

The longer answer is that, because the inventory is huge, it might be possible to understand U.S. tech tree decisions by considering American aircraft that show up elsewhere.  

 

For example, these aircraft are absent from the U.S. tree but show up abroad:

 

China

Curtiss-Wright CW-21 -- 62 built, of which 31 are sent to China (50%)

Vultee P-66 Vanguard -- 146 built, of which ~80 are sent to China (55%)

Republic P-43 Lancer -- 272 built, of which 125 are ordered, and 108 delivered to China (46%)

Northrop Gamma -- 60 built, of which ~49 are sent to China (82%)

Vultee V-11 -- 224 built, of which ~106 are sent to China (47%)

Bellanca 28-90 -- 43 built, of which 20 are sent to China (47%)

Northrop P-61 Black Widow -- 706 built, 1 of which resides in a Chinese museum, presumably captured by PLAAF

Republic F-84G -- 7524 built, of which many are sent to Taiwan

 

Brazil

Curtiss Falcon -- 488 built, of which some are used by Brazil

Republic P-47 Thunderbolt -- 15660 built, of which 40-80 used by Brazil

Vultee A-31 -- 1931 built, of which 33 are used by Brazil

Douglas A-20 Havoc -- 7478 built, of which some are used by Brazil

Douglas A-26 Invader -- 2452 built, of which some are used by Brazil

Grumman Avenger -- 9830 built, of which some are used by Brazil

Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star -- 1715 built, of which 33 to Brazil

Douglas A-4 Skyhawk -- 2960 built, of which ~20 to Brazil

 

Sweden

Seversky Republic P-35 -- 196 built, of which ~61 delivered to Sweden (31%)

Northrop A-17 -- 411 built, of which ~94 built in Sweden (23%)

 

This information can be used three ways:

 

1) If Wargaming has a plan to maximize the number of country tech trees while minimizing the number of replicated aircraft, then that to me would indicate that some of these would show up abroad instead.  It would also suggest that tech trees are already written, or at least slated, because they would have to be in order to meet that kind of long-term objective.

 

2) If Wargaming instead has a plan to minimize development time, then they could instead proceed with aircraft replicated abroad (so-called "copy/paste"), so that essential tiers do not have to be built from scratch.  In this case Republic and Douglas lines for the U.S. early-on would make good sense because it replicates work that could be used to bring China or Brazil online.

 

3) Some combination of the above.

 

That's essentially it.  A similar case be made for Soviet and British technology abroad that so far isn't in the game:

 

China

I-153

Petlyakov Pe-2

Yak-17

MiG-9

MiG-15bis (Shenyang J-2)

 

Finland

Petlyakov Pe-2/3

Gloster Gamecock

Gloster Gladiator

Hawker Hurricane

De Havilland Vampire

Folland Gnat

 

Sweden

Gloster Gladiator

De Havilland Vampire

 

France

De Havilland Vampire --> Mistral

 

Brazil

Gloster Meteor

 

British India/India/Pakistan

Hawker Hurricane I

Hawker Hurricane II

Hawker Typhoon

De Havilland Vampire

 

Aircraft highlighted above are "linchpin" aircraft -- meaning that for that country at the expected tier there are no other alternatives.  If Wargaming is doing the max/min strategy described above then it could be an indicator that their first appearance in-game will be for these countries -- but that is just speculation.  There are still some very large variables that I don't know how to account for because they go against precedent.

 

tl;dr

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Edited by J311yfish, 15 July 2014 - 06:06 PM.

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Raindrops #31 Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:08 AM

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View PostCrazyZouave, on 14 July 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

BTW have you given any thought to what a US Medium bomber / attack tree would like?  I'd love to see your thoughts and my apologies if you have already posted.

I do have a US GA setup in continued development - the A-20 A-26 line may be what you're looking for.

 

But to continue J3lly's thoughts, researching US aircraft is impeeded by there being too much information - not only were there a lot of aircraft, prototypes, and proposals from a glut of different companies, but for us English-speaking internet-goers, there are many, many sources available on US aircraft to flip through and pick from.

 

Additional thoughts:

View PostJ311yfish, on 15 July 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

1) If Wargaming has a plan to maximize the number of country tech trees while minimizing the number of replicated aircraft, then that to me would indicate that some of these would show up abroad instead.  It would also suggest that tech trees are already written, or at least slated, because they would have to be in order to meet that kind of long-term objective.

 

2) If Wargaming instead has a plan to minimize development time, then they could instead proceed with aircraft replicated abroad (so-called "copy/paste"), so that essential tiers do not have to be built from scratch.  In this case Republic and Douglas lines for the U.S. early-on would make good sense because it replicates work that could be used to bring China or Brazil online.

 

3) Some combination of the above.

1) Not going to happen. Putting, say, a P-47 or Hurricane in a small nation's tree but not in the home nation's would result in someone's house burning down. Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.

 

2) More likely - but as their work with the Chinese in tanks goes, there actually is no copy-paste. So, no actual time-saving there, aside from a better guess at balancing.

 

3) Most likely. When we eventually get down to smaller nations - and we will eventually - multi-national planes are liable to appear. For lesser-known planes, they may appear only the once, (See Hawk III, whose role is filled in the US tree already.) with the "lynchpins" appearing with tweaked stats and modules from home-line counterparts. (Compare to the Chinese T-34-85, which is also an important Russian tank.)



J311yfish #32 Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:09 AM

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View PostRaindrops, on 16 July 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Additional thoughts:

1) Not going to happen. Putting, say, a P-47 or Hurricane in a small nation's tree but not in the home nation's would result in someone's house burning down. Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.

 

2) More likely - but as their work with the Chinese in tanks goes, there actually is no copy-paste. So, no actual time-saving there, aside from a better guess at balancing.

 

3) Most likely. When we eventually get down to smaller nations - and we will eventually - multi-national planes are liable to appear. For lesser-known planes, they may appear only the once, (See Hawk III, whose role is filled in the US tree already.) with the "lynchpins" appearing with tweaked stats and modules from home-line counterparts. (Compare to the Chinese T-34-85, which is also an important Russian tank.)

 

Two questions:

 

1) Where are you getting these probabilities from?

 

2) By the text in yellow, do mean to say that fictional modules might be created to fill in the gaps?  In the case of imported aircraft, for example, where no development or module progression exists because there is one configuration only -- are you saying that modules are to be fabricated in order to provide playable progression?  If so that adds a layer of complexity that might be hard to overcome.  It would limit tech tree predictions to the identification of aircraft inventory only, and not playable progression based on modules actually known to have been used.

 

I have not followed World of Tanks progress, so for better or for worse, I do not have the expectation that development here should follow development there.


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Raindrops #33 Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:55 AM

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Probabliltes? Merely guesswork based on past examples. That's why I use the term "likely" - there is still a chance I'm wrong.

 

As for the modules - still using the Chinese in WoT as an example - they start with a number of captured/lend-lease vehicles. These same vehicles are represented in their own trees - Chi-Ha in the Japanese, M5 in the US, and T-34/85 in USSR - but they were tweaked to be different as well. I didn't memorize all the details, but some of the tweaks included reduction of the basic full statistics, (health, traverse, etc) superior "post-war" ammunition, and I do believe even some indigenous engine development.

While WoWP is a different team, and may well do things in their own way, there is still a possibility shared planes could show up in the same manner - a rebalanced plane, with slightly worse flight performance traded for improved armament or vis-a-vis. While singular configurations may have been all that was used, you may see modules pulled from unheard of field modifications, indigenous research, other configurations that weren't used, or even, yes invented.

 

As I said, this is only guesswork based on what I know so far - which isn't much. Since it is guesswork, there really is no way to put your finger on it and say "this is how it will be." What you have here already - what planes and components were really used - is far more solid and useful than any amount of guesswork I could do.


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blockhaj2 #34 Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:16 PM

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Here is a bad example i made for >

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But it could help in some way?



J311yfish #35 Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:42 PM

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View Postblockhaj2, on 04 September 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

But it could help in some way?

 

 It is not helpful because there is no discernible method.


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J311yfish #36 Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:16 PM

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Possible multirole implications for Finland:

 

Spoiler

 


Edited by J311yfish, 14 October 2014 - 05:45 PM.

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MagusGerhardt #37 Posted 27 October 2014 - 03:36 AM

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Of possible interest to frequenters of this thread and Finnish aircraft enthusiasts.  I just uploaded this week's TbM video and it features my F2A-1 in "costume" as a Finnish B-239 using Hawkeyededic's skin.

 

http://forum.worldof...ar-b-239-f2a-1/


 

 

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Bandet #38 Posted 29 October 2014 - 09:06 PM

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Why would they bother to make an aviation tree of planes that already exist in the game?

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MagusGerhardt #39 Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:27 PM

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View PostBandet, on 29 October 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why would they bother to make an aviation tree of planes that already exist in the game?

 

Because the China Tech tree.  :trollface:

 

 

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Bandet #40 Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:28 PM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 29 October 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

 

Because the China Tech tree.  :trollface:

 

That's a marketing thing.


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