20 replies to this topic

[djacobs]

would like to see rocket powered planes like the german komit!

would like to see rocket powered planes like the german komit

[BrushWolf]

The maximum powered flight time was less than 8 minutes, it would then be in glide mode and extremely vulnerable. The planes we currently have had flight endurance measured in hours. Historically they accomplished very little for the effort put into making them operational with only 16 confirmed kills.

[Heh]

It can only work if and only if we have an on/off flight for the rocket planes. In the Komet for instance, using the boost unleashes an extreme speed boost while not boosting results in absolutely no thrust. What I'm really worried about is the flight ceiling due to the disproportionately high climb rate of the Komet compared to its opposition.

[AtrumDeus]

Would be interesting to see how people piloted them, though... With the on/off engines, you could make it the full 15 minutes if you were careful. And you would have to be VERY careful about altitude. Diving after the first GA you see would get you killed pretty swiftly. It would be all about managing airspeed/altitude.

[Raindrops]

Really, I don't see endurance being any sort of problem with rockets and WoWP. After all, we don't have ammo limits, so why should/would we have fuel?

[BrushWolf]

Raindrops, on 30 June 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

Really, I don't see endurance being any sort of problem with rockets and WoWP. After all, we don't have ammo limits, so why should/would we have fuel?

 

For such a limited endurance you have to factor it in for balance. Actually we do have ammo limits, overheat your guns and look at how little damage you are able to inflict.

[J311yfish]

A form of rockets are already in-game:

-- Me 262's fourth engine HWK 509 makes it a rocket boosted interceptor.  Wikipedia claims it is the same engine used for Me 163.

-- Purified Kerosene consumable carries the description that it is for rocket- and jet-powered aircraft.

 

^ Given that, maybe Me 163 will make it eventually.

 

I speculate here that Japanese rockets (based on German technology) are necessary to bring a second Japanese line to Tier X via J8M/Ki-202.  Details here and here.

 

For France, Durandal and Espadon were tested with rocket assist (continuation of German technology), details here under Espadon.

Edited by J311yfish, 01 July 2014 - 02:28 AM.

[Raindrops]

BrushWolf, on 30 June 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

For such a limited endurance you have to factor it in for balance. Actually we do have ammo limits, overheat your guns and look at how little damage you are able to inflict.

...and we have engine overheating as well. It's a balancing parameter as much as anything else - and when gun overheat is based more on caliber than actual ammo loads, I'm not sure you can say it's equivalent to running out.

I just don't get why people are all, "OHHhhh... You'll run out of power half way through the match! The horror!" You know they wouldn't do that - if they even put rockets in in the first place. (Not likely, imho.)

[amade]

Remember the UFOs we had for April Fools? They were quite slow, but boosted like hell. You could make the komet "glide" and boost like that. It will be very vulnerable during glides, climb fast and higher than other same tier heavies when using boost, and is probably useless against everything except maybe heavies. Make it a tier 7 or 8 premium. It will be an extremely difficult plane to fly.

Edited by amade, 01 July 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[BrushWolf]

amade, on 30 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Remember the UFOs we had for April Fools? They were quite slow, but boosted like hell. You could make the komet "glide" and boost like that. It will be very vulnerable during glides, climb fast and higher than other same tier heavies when using boost, and is probably useless against everything except maybe heavies. Make it a tier 7 or 8 premium. It will be an extremely difficult plane to fly.

 

All or nothing throttle, full boost or glide mode, along with a very long boost cool down could work.

[pyantoryng]

La-9...top engine...

[MagusGerhardt]

amade, on 30 June 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Remember the UFOs we had for April Fools? They were quite slow, but boosted like hell. You could make the komet "glide" and boost like that. It will be very vulnerable during glides, climb fast and higher than other same tier heavies when using boost, and is probably useless against everything except maybe heavies. Make it a tier 7 or 8 premium. It will be an extremely difficult plane to fly.

BrushWolf, on 30 June 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

 

All or nothing throttle, full boost or glide mode, along with a very long boost cool down could work.

 

The two of you have actually convinced me that the Me.163 Komet could conceivably work as a tier VIII premium Light Fighter.

 

It would not work as a heavy due to the single engine in the airframe.

[Carl_the_Cuttlefish]

It's an interesting concept. They'd have to test it to see if it works, and if it did, that'd be cool.

[J311yfish]

	max flight time
J8M	5:30
Ki-200	7:00
Ki-202	10:28

 

^ If historical fuel estimates are used, it might be possible to go through an entire match without gliding.

[BrushWolf]

amade, on 30 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Remember the UFOs we had for April Fools? They were quite slow, but boosted like hell. You could make the komet "glide" and boost like that. It will be very vulnerable during glides, climb fast and higher than other same tier heavies when using boost, and is probably useless against everything except maybe heavies. Make it a tier 7 or 8 premium. It will be an extremely difficult plane to fly.

 

BrushWolf, on 30 June 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

 

All or nothing throttle, full boost or glide mode, along with a very long boost cool down could work.

 

MagusGerhardt, on 01 July 2014 - 01:25 AM, said:

 

The two of you have actually convinced me that the Me.163 Komet could conceivably work as a tier VIII premium Light Fighter.

 

It would not work as a heavy due to the single engine in the airframe.

 

I started out arguing against the idea but the mentioning of the sleipnir convinced me it would be doable.

 

J311yfish, on 01 July 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

	max flight time
J8M	5:30
Ki-200	7:00
Ki-202	10:28

 

^ If historical fuel estimates are used, it might be possible to go through an entire match without gliding.

 

Being able to stay on boost for an entire match would make it overpowered.

 

 

 

 

 

[J311yfish]

BrushWolf, on 01 July 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Being able to stay on boost for an entire match would make it overpowered.

 

That is not necessarily the case.  If you look closer at numbers, you will see that despite their great climb rate they are limited in the horizontal.  Dive speed might also be a weakness, due to their design as gliders, but I speculate.  Armament is lower.

[BrushWolf]

J311yfish, on 01 July 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

 

That is not necessarily the case.  If you look closer at numbers, you will see that despite their great climb rate they are limited in the horizontal.  Dive speed might also be a weakness, due to their design as gliders, but I speculate.  Armament is lower.

 

Two 30mm cannon on the 163 compared to the 262's four 30mm's. The 262's longer combat endurance allowed them to break off and come back a few minutes later where the 163 was able to make a few quick passes followed by gliding. Basically the 163 would climb to altitude, attack the first target it sees and go home. The 262 would climb to altitude ahead of the attacking planes, select the best target, attack, break off, select another target, etc.

[J311yfish]

Also, climb rate varies by altitude -- so if implemented it might be reasonable to expect a high optimal altitude, and the weaknesses at low altitude associated with that:

 

source: Edwin Dyer

 

I have been looking at rockets in great detail only because the options for Japan at Tier X are severely limited.  The choices are:

 

  0. Nothing

  1. Ki-201 with fictional Ne-440 engines

  2. Ki-202 rocket

  3. R2Y2 with fictional Ne-440 engines

  4. North American F-86F produced under license by Mitsubishi 11 years later

  5. Kayaba Katsuodori ram-jet

[J311yfish]

I have been thinking about this more and there are essentially 3 logical alternatives over the long term:

 

  Path 1: Rockets not implemented in game

  Path 2. Rockets implemented in game --> disruptive to current balance

  Path 3. Rockets implemented in game --> not disruptive to current balance

 

That might seem obvious, but consider the implications.  It means that if rockets are to be included, there should be balance indicators before they even arrive, so as to avoid disruption.

 

Balance indicators such as:

 

1. Optimal Altitudes 

 -- highest listed optimal altitude of current jets (2600m) vs. max altitude possible (~4800m in J7W2)

 

This just means that a rocket-level altitude band can already be accommodated.

 

2. Climb Rates 

-- climb rate of current jets vs. expected climb rate of rockets

 

The table above indicates that the primary strength of rockets is only valid at high altitudes; but if it is disruptive, how might that be mitigated?

 

1) balancing jet climb rate up from known historical/estimated values

2) rocket-assisted aircraft

 

This just means that mitigating methods are already present.

 

 

3. Size 

-- Size of rocket aircraft relative to aircraft already in game

-- Me163 and J8M are both small, approximately the same size as a biplane, smaller than J7W1

 

 If the most potentially disruptive issue is Size, how might that be mitigated?

 

1) bullet dispersion

2) other small fighters -- Folland Gnat (Finland, India)

3) other rocket fighters of comparable size

 

This just means that they could be harder to hit.  Bullet dispersion is one method already present.

 

Folland Gnat also happens to be the most logical choice for Finland Tier X.

 

 

4. Boost duration

 

I'll come back to this later, but first, some crude definitions:

 

  Glide = zero thrust

  Cruise = engine is on and burning fuel to maintain speed and/or altitude

  Boost = max thrust

 

 

This isn't an argument for or against rockets, just a look at the evidence in order to derive useful conclusions.

Edited by J311yfish, 03 July 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[eggplant84]

BrushWolf, on 01 July 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

 

All or nothing throttle, full boost or glide mode, along with a very long boost cool down could work.

 

Yep been saying it for a while now, but Persha Studia, as the most successful design studio in all of Ukrussia...still standing...gives us cinematics...that do absolutely nothing, for the game.

 

Eggplant84 on 09 April 2014 - 01:29 AM

I think what made this thing so wonderful, aside from being a flyin' saucer, was the way it performed. It can't turn, climb, or do much of anything without boost. However, using boost-fighting techniques it was just a fun aircraft to fly. It brings to mind the flight style of a rocket powered aircraft. A few aircraft have rocket engines in the game, take the La-9 for example, while fitted with a rocket engine for a boost, it doesn't perform much like one at all. Tbh I find very little different than the second prop engine, and the capabilities of the rocket powered engine, aside from like 10 speed rating at the trade-off of some maneuverability.

 

The Sleipnir kinda felt like a rocket powered plane, where it gained speed and mobility but spent the boost very quickly, not unlike the main issue with rocket power-plants, they offered great speed, mobility, and payload but at the expense of a short flight time and fast consumption of fuel. It would be nice to have another type of aircraft that utilizes this play style, or have the Sleipnir re-instated, but...this is WoWP. I mean this was one of the best things done for WoWP, and it was removed.

 

 

The thread below:

 

http://forum.worldof...nir#entry405550

 

RIP in peace Sleipnir...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by eggplant84, 16 July 2014 - 02:23 AM.