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[spoiler] what the French tech tree could look like

France tech tree Dewoitine Morane-Saulnier Potez Bloch Dassault Arsenal Breguet Caudron

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Demon93IT #41 Posted 02 June 2014 - 03:20 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 02 June 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

 

Thank you for the link.  I hope to get through this material soon.

 

On a quick related note, here is a Dassault Ouragan-Mystere-Mirage-Étendard relationship flowchart from Docavia #13 by Jean Cuny


They really spammed jets, probably they wanted to catch up :teethhappy:



Lofao_O #42 Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:25 AM

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hohoho, i found another interesting website :

http://q-zon-fighter...ighters-france/

The two first categories are interesting.

In your file, I havn't founde the MD-700. Too bad. Just for newcomers : SMB-X = "Super mystère BX" and Mystère XXIV = "étendard IV prototype"



J311yfish #43 Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:50 AM

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That's a great site, thanks again.  The stories behind each aircraft are really interesting.  Check out the Bugatti 100.  If it were militarized as hoped (instead of hidden in a barn) and tiered according to its timeframe, it should have been considerably faster than anything in the field.  There is a restoration effort underway.

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J311yfish #44 Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:40 PM

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This is a more detailed update on where I am at in this process.  I have until now considered the French jets to be their own problem, one that is equal to the rest of the tree in the amount of time that it would take to sort through and make sense of.  I want to explain quickly why I think that is the case.  Then I will share with you my strategy for overcoming the material.  For those of you that have an eye for seeing the bigger picture, perhaps you can help me to chart a clear direction, because it is certainly a challenge (yet that is also what makes it fun).

 

The Challenge

Approximately 100 French jets to be narrowed down to approximately 8 (4 each for Tier IX and X) and viable alternates accounted for.

 

The Constraints

 

The Guidelines

 

The Strategies

 

Moving Forward

With these things in mind I intend to tackle jets over the next few weeks, after getting all the information I can on the Tier VIII Jumo-derivates, and confirming that down-tiered or underpowered jet projects are not viable.  If tier IX and X are to be informed by Tier VIII, then I would like to be sure that nothing is missed.  It would also be smart to finish/confirm the heavy/attack line up to Tier VIII as a foundation for what follows, so I intend to do that too.  If there is another method that happens to be faster then I am certainly open to it.  If you have read this far, thanks.


Edited by J311yfish, 04 June 2014 - 02:07 AM.

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Lofao_O #45 Posted 04 June 2014 - 11:37 AM

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Every plane research logic and normal, so. Evident links between each planes (Common designer, design, gameplay or project), and, of course, historical and with credible configurations, both of those has to be proved to be true or strongly belivable (As for the mirage 1, which never recieved weaponry, but if the production begun at this point, it should had received his DEFA cannons and his planned attach points, but the Mirage 2 was preferred...etc, etc). Sure, every WG vehicle propositions must be done like this.

 

But I must add something : The vehicle must be balanced in his tier, or with ways to make it so.



J311yfish #46 Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:09 PM

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I think the fastest approach could be to return to the leaked rough draft and to consider closely the jets that they isolated for inclusion (top-down approach rather than comprehensive bottom-up).  I am going to try and understand their thought process based on what I have learned since starting this project.  For example:

 

What isn't there:

 

Aquilon and Mistral -- This is significant because they chose to include two failed shipboard fighter prototypes (VG-90, Nord 2200) that eventually lost the role to Aquilon.  Mistral is significant too (jet fighter crutch) but it isn't there.  The suggestion is that native French development (even if unsuccessful) is more important than successful aircraft built or modified under license.  Alternatively (or sequentially), it could be an indication that the De Havilland Vampire/Venom are to make their appearance for Great Britain.  I am assuming that tech trees are measured against each other with a long-range objective in mind.  I do not think it is unreasonable to assume that they have a strategy for implementation.

 

June 1946 Aéronavale jet fighter contest:

 

 

What is there:

 

Durandal -- Chosen over Baroudeur, Breguet Taon, Dassault Etendard VI, [all of which competed for the 1953 NATO lightweight strike fighter contract lost to Italy] despite the fact that it uses auxiliary rocket power to achieve speeds so far unprecedented in game.  If ever there were to be a case for establishing a new speed constraint (within the timeline established by the game), it could certainly reside with the French jets; and if it happens to use rocket auxiliary power, then that could be an excellent segue to introduce rockets for Germany, Japan, etc.  [sidenote:  Purified Kerosene currently in-game indicates that it is restricted to rocket and jet-powered aircraft]

 

1953 NATO lightweight strike fighter contest (and follow-on developments):

 

 

Now, I have been assuming that there is reasonable judgement behind the choices made on that rough draft, but there are also indications that it was not thought out (or researched) completely.  For example:

 

NC.1070, NC.1071/2 are not there -- yet the Chance-Vought F4U-7 Corsair is there on import at the same tier.

 

SE.580 isn't there -- I suspect this is due to lack of information on the part of the researcher.  As far as I know, the primary source needed is the Docavia #28 book by Jean Cuny (1988), or possibly an article in Le Fana de l'Aviation No.35 from July 1972.  If I understand correctly, the same book (and possibly its sequel Docavia #30) has information on the NC.1070/1/2 projects, so that might explain the absence of all three.

 

VG-70 is there -- so far I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that it actually had armament.  Still looking.  Probably in those books above, though a database for Le Fana de l'Aviation ("Aviation Fanatic" magazine) indicates that it has been written about at least 5 times between 1979 and 2008. [sidenote:  the SO.6000 Triton flown 7 months previously with the same Jumo 004 engine (used on Me 262) was not armed.  A comparison of speeds, weights, and dimensions achieved by the SO.6000 airframe versus VG-70 could be an abstract way of figuring out what armament it could have had, if documentation cannot otherwise be found; also by comparison to the VG-90 though it was built to larger scale; that's a stretch though so I do not intend to pursue that yet]

 

Vautour IIA is there -- it is a downsized bomber meant to be an all-weather, all-purpose aircraft.  If the IL-40P is the standard for attack aircraft, then the payload on Vautour is way too high.  It would either have to be reduced considerably or eliminated; and in that case, why not simply use the Grognard which was actually designed for low-altitude attack?  Eliminating Grognard from consideration is only reasonable if you consider a dedicated attack line to be unreasonable.

 

I have not reached hard conclusions yet on this information but I think it is important to consider what they are trying to do (or meant to at one time).  

 


Edited by J311yfish, 07 June 2014 - 01:57 PM.

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Lofao_O #47 Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:55 PM

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Stop just a minute, when you say "they", you are referring to what ? I can't achieve to understand well without that :amazed:

J311yfish #48 Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:03 PM

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A rough draft of the tree was leaked in document form, then assembled into a rough tree here.

 

By "they" I mean, the Wargaming developer(s) responsible for researching and creating a playable tree.

 

My goal has been to rebuild it in the same manner that they did (by doing the research) in order to know if it is reliable information.


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Demon93IT #49 Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:04 PM

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View PostLofao_O, on 04 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

Stop just a minute, when you say "they", you are referring to what ? I can't achieve to understand well without that :amazed:

A WG employee did a sort of preliminary tech tree and i posted it here. I don't know how "official" is that tree, in any case that's something



Lofao_O #50 Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:45 PM

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Ooh...this ? It's a preliminary tech tree, it is made to be changed if needed. no problem here. I agree with them for the heavy fighter branch and the "Mystère" one. But this subject isn't in the "suggestions" section for nothing, isn't it ? If we can discuss around what the devellopers chosen for the french tree, we should do it anyway. This is not our goal to think like them. Our goal is instead to show them another point of view, which is probably what they wanted when they posted the tech tree : feedback. Let's continue as we did before.

 

You say that "Vautour" payload is too high, but i notice that it had only 6 attach point. Even if it carries six 500kg bombs, it becomes "useless" after used it.

They hadn't put the Mistral, nor the Aquilon, surely because they were copypaste. But, there is the Narwal. I never heard of a comparable plane in the UK. So, may be, this branch (Venom/Vampire) should be more "complete" in french tree. In WoT, the chinese tree also works as copies of soviet tanks, but it works as it is. A alternate top tree is not a problem.

About NC.1070/1071, may be it is also a question of credibility. A game can't be serious with as a bulbeous thing in it !  :veryhappy:

But just a thing, Durandal isn't just too fast ? over Mach 1 ! I never heard of a subsonic prototype.

Other ideas we have, mainly on alternate trees, can still fit for future uptates. I think that Mirage and Etendard will get into the game sooner or later, as they are (beautiful) some rather known planes, which were the prototypes of mass-produced jets, so they should be attractive.

 

But I think that there is another important question : What should be the main and common caracteristc of the French planes, especially at high tiers ?

 



J311yfish #51 Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:00 PM

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View PostLofao_O, on 04 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

You say that "Vautour" payload is too high, but i notice that it had only 6 attach point. Even if it carries six 500kg bombs, it becomes "useless" after used it.

 

I think we mean the same thing -- that its primary usefulness is as a bomber.  Grognard on the other had 8 different configurations for a dedicated attack role.

 

View PostLofao_O, on 04 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

About NC.1070/1071, may be it is also a question of credibility. A game can't be serious with as a bulbeous thing in it !  :veryhappy:

But just a thing, Durandal isn't just too fast ? over Mach 1 ! I never heard of a subsonic prototype.

Other ideas we have, mainly on alternate trees, can still fit for future uptates. I think that Mirage and Etendard will get into the game sooner or later, as they are (beautiful) some rather known planes, which were the prototypes of mass-produced jets, so they should be attractive.

 

Well, other than what has been established, I don't know what else they might consider.  I read that the airframe of the NC.1071 was very dangerous to fly because the landing gear doors wouldn't stay shut, that it was unstable beyond 600 km/h, and that it essentially fell apart before being cancelled.  Even the chronology of the NC.1071 when compared to other carrier-based projects indicates that they were looking for other options.  Also, if the information is accurate, its armament is reduced from the NC.1070 and it loses the tail gunner -- so other than being a development of the NC.1070 it doesn't have much going for it.  That could explain the absence of a dedicated attack line in the rough draft.

 

Unfortunately there are not many options for tier VIII.  If the Docavia books have more information then I hope they get them!

 

The attack variant of the Breguet Vultur is also interesting but the jet engine and speed should put it at Tier IX or X.  It would have the advantage of 2 altitude bands (possibly overlapping; 1 for piston engine, 1 for jet), and better maneuverability, a sharp contrast from the other jet developments, but though it is interesting I cannot imagine to be more valuable than Grognard in the attack role for those tiers.

 

View PostLofao_O, on 04 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

But I think that there is another important question : What should be the main and common caracteristc of the French planes, especially at high tiers ?

 

Well, I think their primary attribute is going to be speed, greater than what is currently seen in game, but to what degree is a matter of speculation.  If auxiliary rockets (Espadon, Durandal) are absolutely allowed then I would expect them to have exceptional climb rates, balanced by the inclusion of Me-263 for Germany, J8M for Japan, etc.  I don't know anything about Russian, British, American, Italian rocket aircraft so I can't really go further than that (yet).


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GiN_nTonic #52 Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:56 PM

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Nice thread.....good job J311yfish!


J311yfish #53 Posted 07 June 2014 - 07:06 PM

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Thanks.  A detailed update to resolve Tier VIII, IX, X is in the works.

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J311yfish #54 Posted 07 June 2014 - 08:15 PM

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This is a detailed post that makes generous use of spoiler tags.

 

Before the jets at Tier IX and X can be addressed in detail, it is first necessary to answer these questions in order:

 

Question #1:  Is a dedicated attack line possible for tiers II-X?

 

Question #2:  How do you handle the technological lag caused by Armistice/occupation?

 

Now, returning to the leaked rough draft, here is how they answer those questions:

 

Now it is right to ask,

 

Question #3:  Which jets to choose, and do you permit rocket-assisted power into the game?

 

Conclusion

 


Edited by J311yfish, 24 June 2014 - 01:36 AM.

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Lofao_O #55 Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:08 PM

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I were searching about some attack aircraft, but I just found :

-a website : http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/

-an attack aircraft, the S.O 4000

-a all-weather fighter based on the Nord 1601, the Nord 1600. no more info on it.



Keulz #56 Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:51 PM

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View PostTraurig_Yoda, on 15 May 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

things to consider where the french are concerned and their war history:

 

WWI: Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like not only to sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

WWII: Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

 

Looks like history is not your thing.



Keulz #57 Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:02 PM

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About tier VIII being jet powered :

 

View PostDemon93IT, on 22 May 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

I have some doubts about those VIIIs, since all of them are jets and are more comparable to tier IXs rather than VIIIs which are prop driven(except the heavies).

  

The yak-15 is a jet and a light, while being tier VIII, so...



Demon93IT #58 Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:04 PM

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View PostKeulz, on 12 June 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

 


The Yak-15 has a maximum speed of 830 km/h, the Ouragan has 940 km/h(for example). The Ouragan is 110 km/h faster in comparison to the fastest tier VIII plane currently present, that's a bit too much



Lofao_O #59 Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:54 AM

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Moreover, the main goal of the Yak isn't speed, it is also maneuvrability.

And the Me.262 already goes at 920 km/h max ingame.



Demon93IT #60 Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:11 AM

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View PostLofao_O, on 13 June 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Moreover, the main goal of the Yak isn't speed, it is also maneuvrability.

And the Me.262 already goes at 920 km/h max ingame.


The Me 262 is the only original tier VIII and it's classified as heavy. Sure it's the fastest but turns like train, the Ouragan isn't like that. Moreover the Ouragan has the Nene engine, the same of the Attacker. If the French is at tier VIII then also the British has to be downtiered.






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