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[spoiler] what the French tech tree could look like

France tech tree Dewoitine Morane-Saulnier Potez Bloch Dassault Arsenal Breguet Caudron

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Demon93IT #21 Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:10 AM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 17 May 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

Thank you Demon93 for the link.  I will start from there and reverse-engineer.  Here is a rough version of that information in tree form:

 


You're welcome, glad to help. If i find some other piece of info in the EU forum i'll let you know :honoring:



J311yfish #22 Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:08 PM

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I have to assume that the leaked list is some kind of early rough draft, because already it is very clear that there at least 4 highly unnecessary problems:

 

1) Morane-Saulnier is completely absent with the exception of MS.406 pinch-hitting for Dewoitine development at Tier IV.  

2) Breguet 693, Bloch MB.175, Arsenal, and Potez are all incomplete and not making sense as arranged

3) F4U-7 Corsair is both American and anachronistic, and isn't necessary anyway because Dewoitine/SNCASE development continues into Tier VII, assuming this is not fiction.

4) Jet selection doesn't make much sense compared to the alternatives

 

I will have a refined version of that list supported by engine developments posted either tonight or tomorrow.


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Angadan #23 Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:37 PM

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[Dumb French Military Prowess Joke Placeholder]

 

For Sale:  French weapons.  All types, aircraft, tanks, especially rifles.  Like new.  Never fired.  Dropped once.

 

Sorry, I just had to.  Love that joke.  Love the French, too, spent a year with their army back in my younger days, and they rock.  But the joke is too good to pass up.  :)


Edited by Angadan, 20 May 2014 - 09:41 PM.

l'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!

 

Go Vols!


Demon93IT #24 Posted 21 May 2014 - 08:08 AM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 20 May 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

I have to assume that the leaked list is some kind of early rough draft, because already it is very clear that there at least 4 highly unnecessary problems:

 

1) Morane-Saulnier is completely absent with the exception of MS.406 pinch-hitting for Dewoitine development at Tier IV.  

2) Breguet 693, Bloch MB.175, Arsenal, and Potez are all incomplete and not making sense as arranged

3) F4U-7 Corsair is both American and anachronistic, and isn't necessary anyway because Dewoitine/SNCASE development continues into Tier VII, assuming this is not fiction.

4) Jet selection doesn't make much sense compared to the alternatives

 

I will have a refined version of that list supported by engine developments posted either tonight or tomorrow.

It isn't official(thankfully). The topic in which got posted got archived and not a single Frenchy did something similar. In any case yep those are the same problems i came up with.

 

 



_Dreadnaught_ #25 Posted 21 May 2014 - 08:12 AM

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Is it wierd that I like seeing Jellyfish post his predictions?

 

I look up what he's talking about and I get interested and want his tech trees to be added,

 

+1 For Being Thought Provoking


Edited by _Dreadnaught_, 21 May 2014 - 08:13 AM.

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Demon93IT #26 Posted 22 May 2014 - 09:36 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 15 May 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Tier VIII placeholder

 

Dassault MD.450 Ouragan

 

SNCASE SO.6020 Espadon

 

De Havilland Vampire FB Mk.51 (licensed production from which modifications lead to SE.530 Mistral)

 

SNCAC NC.1071/2

 

 


I have some doubts about those VIIIs, since all of them are jets and are more comparable to tier IXs rather than VIIIs which are prop driven(except the heavies). Of course it's not easy that tier counting the fact that France seems lacking designs comparable to the current tier VIIIs



J311yfish #27 Posted 23 May 2014 - 01:37 AM

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You are absolutely right.  I am working on a better solution.

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SkyWolf__WM #28 Posted 23 May 2014 - 03:51 AM

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I'm french... but I can't make hide nor hair of this.

 

I surrender.


***************Fail to Suck****************

I shall use my aircraft and my skill to slightly inconvenience mine enemies.


J311yfish #29 Posted 23 May 2014 - 04:45 AM

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Getting closer:

 

 

Arsenal VB-15 uses 2x Arsenal 12H engines, an adaptation of captured Junkers Jumo 213 that is currently in game for:

 

FW 190D (Tier VII)

Jumo 213 A-1 (VII)

Jumo 213 E-1 (VIII)

Jumo 213 J-1 (VIII)

 

FW Ta152 (Tier VIII)

Jumo 213 E-1 (VIII)

DB 603 LA (VIII)

Jumo 213 F-1 (IX)

 

VIII Me 209

DB 603A (VII)

DB 603G (VII)

Jumo 213 E-1 (VIII)

 

SNCASE SE.580 uses Arsenal 24H, another Jumo 213 adaptation

 

SNCASO SO.8000 Narval uses Arsenal 12 H-02 engine, another Jumo 213 adaptation

 

NC.1071 uses a Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine, and that might seem out of place but the IL-20 (Tier VIII) in game uses a VK-2 engine (Tier X); designation suggests that it may have been built after (or concurrently with) the VK-1, which is a reverse-engineered Nene (Tier IX)

 

^ This appears to work across the board for Tier VIII, but I do not have the sources to verify information for VB-15 or SE.580, so I am also looking at alternatives.

 

 

As for the remaining jets at Tier IX-X, they all use Nene engines (generally built under license by Hispano-Suiza).  

 

Ouragan may have also been tested with ATAR (German-origin) engines; if that is truly the case then a captured He-162 (BMW 003) could make very good sense for Tier VIII because it explains where the technology came from as you play through (BMW 003 --> ATAR 101)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 23 June 2014 - 08:58 PM.

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Demon93IT #30 Posted 23 May 2014 - 07:37 AM

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Now it's much better, considering that it's still incomplete. Good job!

J311yfish #31 Posted 23 May 2014 - 03:51 PM

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Here is the argument for He-162 at Tier VIII based on engine developments:

 

1) Gnome-Rhône piston engines are at the peak of their development with the 14R for MB.157 and NC.1070

2) Hienkel He 162 is captured (BMW 003 engine) (1945)

3) Gnome-Rhône is nationalized in 1945 to form SNECMA (1945)

4) SNECMA continues to build 14R piston engines but studies BMW technology

5) Study of BMW 018 leads to SNECMA Atar engines (4/1948)

6) SNECMA Atar 101B is given first flight test in Dassault Ouragan (12/1951), and later Gloster Meteor (3/1952)

7) SNECMA Atar 101G is given first flight test in Dassault Mystere II (8/1954), and later Super Mystere (3/1956)

8) a sideline development from the SNECMA Atar is the is Turbomeca Gabiza engine (1954)

9) Turbomeca Gabiza was tested in the SNCASO Trident (3/1953), and later Dassault Etendard II (7/1956) but was ultimately used in Fouga Makalu trainers

 

German-origin

Atar 101 (10/1945)

Atar 101A (11/1950)

Atar 101B -- Dassault Ouragan (12/1951), Gloster Meteor (3/1952)

Atar 101C -- SNCASE SE.5000 Baroudeur (1953), Dassault Mystere

Atar 101D -- SNCASE SE.5000 Baroudeur, Dassault Mystere, Leduc 0.22 (12/1956)

Atar 101E (1954)

Atar 101F -- Nord 1500-01 Griffon (9/1955), SNCASE SE.212 Durandal (4/1956)

Atar 101G -- Dassault Mystere II (8/1954), Super Mystere (3/1956)

Atar 8

Atar 9

 

So that's the German origin.  The British origin is simpler, with Hispano-Suiza being granted licensed production of the Rolls-Royce Nene:

 

British-origin

Nene (10/1944)

Nene 101 -- SO.6000 Triton (11/1946), NC.1071 (10/1948), SE.2410 Grognard (4/1950)

Nene 102 -- SE.532 Mistral, MD.450 Ouragan, SNCASEO SO.4000, Nord 2200

Nene 103

Nene 104 -- SE.535 Mistral, MD.450 Ouragan

 

^ Nene is used by Supermarine Attacker at Tier IX

 

Other developments along the British line:

Rolls-Royce Tay (enlarged Nene) -- produced under licenese as Hispano-Suiza Verdon

Tay 250 -- Dassault Mystere IV (10/1952)

Rolls-Royce Avon -- used by Supermarine Swift at Tier X

 

Anyway, all of this to say that the captured Heinkel He 162 is reasonable to fill the technology gap at Tier VIII.

 

The only other way is through the Jumo derivatives, by either bringng the SE.580 down to VIII (if possible) or bottlenecking the tree through AB-15 and SO.8000.  I intend to look closer at that.


Edited by J311yfish, 23 May 2014 - 03:52 PM.

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Demon93IT #32 Posted 23 May 2014 - 04:17 PM

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Yeah probably the He 162 is fine at tier VIII but it feels weird having it in the French tech tree, at least as far as standard planes go. At least as for now in WoWP not a single nation has captured planes as standard planes for the tech trees. We'll see anyway :)

J311yfish #33 Posted 23 May 2014 - 04:21 PM

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via Jumo derivatives:

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 23 May 2014 - 05:19 PM.

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J311yfish #34 Posted 23 May 2014 - 06:53 PM

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Major French piston engines and the Tier VII-VIII challenge:

 

Hispano-Suiza

1911.....Hispano France

1914.....Hispano-Suiza; Swiss engineer Marc Birkigt, co-founder of Dewoitine, w/ Emile Dewoitine

.............Hispano-Suiza 8A             ~140hp   à ancestor to Soviet Klimov engines

.............Hispano-Suiza 8F              ~300hp

1927-8..Hispano-Suiza 12M          ~500hp

1928.....Hispano-Suiza 12N           ~650hp                

____.....Hispano-Suiza 12x            ~___hp

1929.....Hispano-Suiza 18R           1680hp Racing aircraft: NiD 450, NiD 460

1930’s..Hispano-Suiza 14AA        ~1000hp        derived from licensed Wright R-2600

.............Hispano-Suiza 14AB        ____hp         derived from licensed Wright Whirlwind

1932.....Hispano-Suiza 12Y          ~1000hp      MS.406, D.520  --> Soviet Klimov 100 --> Soviet VK-105

1935.......12Ycrs 835hp

1936.......12Y-31

...............12Y-45 920hp @ 4000m --> D.520

...............12Y-49 910hp @ 5250m

...............12Y-51 1100hp --> Klimov M-100, M-103, M-105 750-1000hp --> Yak 1 (Tier V), Yak 2, Yak 3 (Tier VII), Yak 4, Yak 7 (Tier V), Yak 9 (Tier VII), LaGG-1, LaGG-3 (Tier V) -- some of these aircraft were also flown by French pilots in exile (Clostermann)

1936.....ordered back to production of aircraft engines (no longer to produce for luxury automobiles)

.............Hispano-Suiza 12Y in huge demand for French aircraft

.............Hispano-Suiza HS.9 20mm autocannon

.............Hispano-Suiza HS.404 20mm autocannon

.............Hispano-Suiza HS.820 20mm autocannon              à U.S.A. M139

1940+.....Hispano-Suiza 12Z            ~1300hp               development interrupted by occupation; Germans permitted 12Z to be completed and fit into "Dewoitine D.520Z" but it was not permitted to fly.  659 km/h estimated.

.................12Zars-15/16 --> Arsenal VB-10 (11/1947 first flight)

.................12Z-17 ....peak at Armistice

.................12Z-89 "post-war development, not successful"

1940+.....Hispano-Suiza 24Z ............2000hp  ...this was a plan to use two 12Z engines together to drive contra-rotating propellers in the SNCASE SE.580 project; later relied on Jumo-derivative Arsenal 24H 

1945-1955.....Licensed production of Rolls-Royce Nene jet engine

~1949.....Hispano-Suiza 12B .......2000hp ....(source)

 

Gnome-Rhône

 1921....... license for production of Bristol Jupiter; Jupiter 9A sells very well à Soviet M-22

1926........license for production of Bristol Titan 5-cylinder

1927........development from Titan = K-series:       

............... 5K Titan  260hp

................7K Titan Major  370hp

................9K Mistral  550hp à 770hp w/ supercharging

...............3 letter code:  Series (A-F), direction engine turns (R/L), charging system

1929.......14K Mistral Major   625hp à 1025hp w/ supercharging à Soviet M-85, Italian Piaggio P.XI

1930.......largest engine company in France

____.......18L

____.......14M Mars ......used in Potez 631, Breguet 693

1936.......14N  1100hp ...…up to 1210hp … not widely licensed with war on horizon --> Bloch MB.152, Bloch MB.155

...............14N-20/21 1080hp --> SNCASE SE.100

...............14N-24/25 1120hp; 1000hp @ 3600m

...............14N-48/49 1180hp; 1070hp @ 3600m; 1300hp @ 2150m overloaded

...............14N-50 1400hp; 1300hp @ 1500m --> 14N-50 was redesignated as 14R

1939.......14R 1291hp

1940.......14R-8/9  1578hp (“Germans/British were already at 2000hp at this point”) --> Bloch MB.156, Bloch MB.157

1940-1945........Occupied by Germans, ordered to produce BMW 801 under license for Fw 190/191

..........................“slow production so as not to help the Germans; bombed by Allies”

1945 May 29......nationalized, now known as SNECMA; continued production of 14M, 14N, 14R

................14R-24/25 1600hp --> SNCAC NC.1070 (10/1948)

1945+.........14X ~850hp, developed from 14M

1945+......SNECMA study of BMW 018 jet engine leads to Atar 101 engines --> Dassault Ouragan 

~1949 .......14U (source)

 

14S was a development that presumably did not work out

 

 

 

Arsenal

 

Junkers Jumo 213 derivatives (~1700-2500hp):

Arsenal 12H 2100-2250hp (~1949, source) --> Arsenal VB-15

Arsenal 12H-02 2250hp --> SO.8000 Narval (4/1949 first flight)

Arsenal 12K (1946+, source)

Arsenal 24H 4000hp (1949, source) --> SE.580 

 

Junkers Jumo 004 jet engine (captured):

Arsenal VG-70 (6/1948) tested Jumo 004; no further development.

Arsenal VG-80 to use license-built Nene engine, no further development.  

Arsenal VG-90 (9/1949) used Nene engine, project abandoned after 3rd prototype.

 

 

looking for more info, will update.

 

Fuel

-- Hartmann writes that the French used 85-octane fuel, and that they were later supplied 100-octane fuel by the Americans.  He says that the Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 (used in D.520) was developed to use 100-octane fuel; conversely, the use of American engines (see minor variants throughout the tree) was complicated by the fact that they were designed with 100-octane in mind (for details, see Hartmann's article on Hispano-Suiza engine history here)

-- Hartmann claims that Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 with 100-octane fuel achieved 1100hp, whereas with 85-octane fuel it achieved 900hp [difference of 200hp]

-- [meaning, if there are no other options, and if the transition to Tier VIII is strained, then perhaps it could be mitigated through the use of higher quality fuel]

 

French Air Force timeline (context):

 


Edited by J311yfish, 06 June 2014 - 06:01 PM.

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J311yfish #35 Posted 24 May 2014 - 09:17 PM

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First major update.

 

With Jumo-derived engines at Tier VIII, this is my understanding of what would follow:

 

 

Arsenal is ultimately absorbed by Nord but fails to produce anything beyond experimental jet aircraft; Dassault Ouragan is a logical extension of the Arsenal line based on armament and role.  (sidenote:  an argument could be made for the extension of the Dassault line from Bloch, because Marcel Bloch and Marcel Dassault are the same person, but I consider it to be an arbitrary distinction when compared to considerations below)

 

Bloch was absorbed by SNCASO, which produced the double-boomed SO.8000 Narval, which is analogous in design to the double-boom De Havilland Vampire built under license which was modified to become the double-boom SE.530 Mistral.

 

Dewoitine is absorbed by SNCASE, which continues production of the D.520 as the SE.520Z, and the SE.580.  The SE.580 is related to the SE.2410 Grognard in that it has 2 engines inline or stacked vertically with a dorsal air intake, giving both a hunchback appearance; the SE.580 is also related by its unusually heavy (proposed) armament, 4x20mm and 8x7.7mm.  The SE.580 didn't actually fly though so I think there is room for judgement as to how that might be implemented.

 

Vautour IIA takes over the attack role from Grognard, and the fighter-bomber role from Mistral.  There is no fighter-bomber follow-on to the Mistral within the timeframe of the game, so I have led both to Vautour.  An argument can be made for the inclusion of other experimental jets, primarily Baroudeur based on established timeline but it deviates by being a light fighter.  A late version of Espadon might work, though it is augmented by rocket power which is so far beyond convention.

 

Potez 25 and Potez 390 have been eliminated because they lack sufficient forward armament to fulfill the attack role (1x7.7mm); they have been replaced by the ANF Les Mereaux 110 series of aircraft that have the armament, engine upgrades, and fit the timeline; they are also high production (meaning they were actually used) which is something I try to adhere to.  More on that later.

 

I have not vetted the Nieuport-Delage 42 yet primarily because there are so many options for Tier 1.  I intend to resolve that soon.

 

Loire-Nieuport LN 161 has been chosen to fill the Tier IV variable for Dewoitine.  It competed with the MS.406 and continues the Hispano-Suiza engine trend while being of comparable armament and weight.  An argument could be made for the Caudron C.714, but it would deviate from the style of the Dewoitine line in that it is a light fighter, and further, it stands out in that it relies on Caudron-Renault engines.  I intend to investigate the addition of Caudron-Renault as their own light-fighter line, probably as an offshoot of Morane-Saulnier.  Another argument could be made for Koolhoven F.K.58 to fill the role, but as it was designed in the Netherlands it has been sidelined, similar case for Curtiss Hawk 75 despite wide use.

 

Moving forward from here, I intend to conduct one last major sweep of all aircraft, update the alternate list, then start looking at finer details.


Edited by J311yfish, 24 May 2014 - 10:32 PM.

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Lofao_O #36 Posted 01 June 2014 - 06:37 PM

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I think, although the idea is exellent, that some things can be added to the tree :

-why the mistral researches the Vautour, while he could research his spiritual succesor, the SE.201/202/203 "Aquilon" ?

-A high tier duo can be added : a tier 9 Br.1001 "Taon" (1195 km/h, 4*12.7mm, then 2.30mm guns) and the Se.5000 "Baroudeur" (1195 km/h, 2*30mm guns, but 20.000m of optimum altitude, while the Taon had around 8.000m)

-An other one can fit : the "étendard VI" at tier 9 (912 km/h, 4*12.7mm or 2*30mm guns) and the "étendard IV", not the IV M (1100 km/h, 2*30mm guns).

-A heavy fighter duo can be added : in tier 9, the "étendard II" a twin engine prototype (1054 km/h, 2*30mm guns, 2*68mm rocket pods) and The "Mirage-Delta", or MD-550 on tier 10 ( 1162 km/h, planned weaponry : 2*30mm guns, and wing ports which would hold, in game, 2*68mm rocket pods) a branch of fast planes, with a maneuvrability comparable to some fighters, but weaker cannons than other planes of his class, althoug he tries to compensate with some light rockets, as those on the Me.262.

-The SE.2410, because of his inboard/outboard weaponry and, albeit archaic,but present, vertical thrust vectorisation, should be replaced on tier 9 by the VG-90 (950 km/h, planned 3*30mm, or on prototype, 2*20mm and 7*7.7mm guns) and changed to the SE.2418 (same plane, more powerful engines).

A tier 10 heavy fighter SO.6050 "Espadon" (1040 km/h, 2*30mm and 4*12.7mm guns, which is not bad on a small, fast and not bad maneuvrability aircraft) could fit along the "Grognard" and replace the "Vautour".

which could be moved as the tier 10 attack aircraft, may be with the tier 9 the SE 2410 the new attack branch would be some fast planes, able to change their gameplay effectively to a heavy fighter if needed.

 



J311yfish #37 Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:48 PM

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Thank you for your interest.  You are hitting the weak spots exactly and I know it can be better.  Here is a quick overview of where I am at:

 

 

The RED area is essentially done; details have been added and cross-checked from 3 or more sources.

 

The PURPLE area is short on detail because I don't have the sources I need -- Docavia books 28 and 30.  They are rare/expensive and my library does not have them.  I can read/translate French if I get them.  For this reason I am relying on second-hand information (websites, blogs, etc.).  There may be inaccuracies in the meantime (like the differing accounts of enormous armament for the SE.580), but it will have to do for now.

 

The MAROON area is muddy at the moment because it is a combination of army co-op fighters, heavy fighters, and dedicated attack aircraft (ship and land); I hope to resolve that soon.

 

The BLUE area absolutely needs a better solution.  There are many jets to choose from and it is difficult to be true to what they used while being true to what they experimented with, so I really appreciate your feedback.  I'm going to look closer at what you are saying and will put it into diagram form today.


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Lofao_O #38 Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:25 PM

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If you read french, I can advise you this website. It isn't full (I get the MD.550 speed from dassault aviation website), but there is some essential things, which can be relied upon : http://www.avionsleg...ie/pays/france/

I htink you can find some elements there.



Carl_the_Cuttlefish #39 Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:59 PM

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WG, can we PLEASE have those GA's!!!!!! I thought my sexyfish (p.1056) looked cool... Then I saw those :D. They are so freakish!!! I love them!!!

"It's about to get real inky in here!!!"

- Carl the Cuttlefish, the artist formerly known as S01836775, now in an all new user friendly format.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


J311yfish #40 Posted 02 June 2014 - 03:10 PM

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View PostLofao_O, on 02 June 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

If you read french, I can advise you this website. It isn't full (I get the MD.550 speed from dassault aviation website), but there is some essential things, which can be relied upon : http://www.avionsleg...ie/pays/france/

I htink you can find some elements there.

 

Thank you for the link.  I hope to get through this material soon.

 

On a quick related note, here is a Dassault Ouragan-Mystere-Mirage-Étendard relationship flowchart from Docavia #13 by Jean Cuny


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN  /  United Kingdom  /  Sweden  /  Finland (skins/  Italy  /  France  /  Poland  /  China  /  Brazil  /  United States  //  Roadmap

Map proposals:  Panama Canal  /  Great Wall of China  /  Cliffs of Dover  //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial How to ignore forum posts and signatures





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