Jump to content


[spoiler] what the French tech tree could look like

France tech tree Dewoitine Morane-Saulnier Potez Bloch Dassault Arsenal Breguet Caudron

  • Please log in to reply
164 replies to this topic

J311yfish #141 Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:12 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Here is a closer look at the Boeing P-26, Dewoitine D.500-510, and Breda Ba.27M, in a spectrum from Tier II (on the left) to Tier III (on the right).

 

There are many similarities, and interestingly, all of them served in China.

 

Comparison

-- P-26 in-game has flaps, meaning it is actually a P-26B (flaps + R-1340-33 engine upgrade); delivered 02/10/1936 to 03/07/1936 (details here).

-- Data above comes directly from other tech tree projects (USA, Italy, China; sources identified there) and Wargaming data in-game as of today (05/11/18).

-- Purple text = tier is known directly based on a module that exists in-game (SPAD.510, Fairey Fantome)

-- Maroon text = tier is inferred based on known modules

 

Summary

  D.500 D.501 D.510
Engine II II or III IV
Airframe      
Armament

II (S)

 

III (E)

and ? (W)

III or IV (E)

and ? (W)

Overall      

 

 

Discussion

It is difficult to reach a firm (indisputable) conclusion for Overall tier for each without knowing Airframe tiers, but if some inferences can be made from the Comparison and Summary alone above, then it would seem that:

-- D.500 is tier II

-- D.501 is tier II or III

-- D.510 represents the apex of the design when compared to P-26 and Ba.27M. If premiums are still considered to be 'middle of the road' for a tier (as claimed in the distant past), then D.510 should be tier III ('top of the tier').

-- D.500-510 airframes could be considered to be 'sleeker' (better aerodynamic qualities) in that they are cantilevered with no external bracing, yet perhaps more 'fragile' (less hitpoints) for having a single-spar wing.

-- The 20mm Oerlikon cannon in-game for Fantome is the S9 and is rated tier IV.  The 20mm on the D.501 is the S7, so presumably tier III.  The 20mm on the D.510 could be either the S7 or S9, more data needed, but for balance purposes S7 alone could make sense if the 12Ycrs engine is indeed tier IV as it is for the Fantome.

 

But, let's try to look closer at airframes anyway -- 

 

Airframes

If it is possible to determine the tier of airframes based on their defining features compared to those of aircraft already in-game, then here is what is known:

 

-- P-26 analogues

· ​​Nakajima Ki-11 -- inspired by Boeing P-26, 4 prototypes of Ki-11 completed 04/1935 - 12/1935; lost to Ki-10 (tier II).

· ​​Boeing YP-29 -- advancement of Boeing P-26; featured cantilever wings, retractable undercarriage, cockpit canopy, wing flaps; first flight 01/1934; did not proceed to production; in-game YP-29 (tier III).

· ​​Breda Ba.27M -- Italian implementation of P-26 concepts; Ba.27M (tier III).

 

-- D.500/501-510 analogues

· ​​Curtiss XP-31 -- all-metal; enclosed cockpit; wing flaps; full-span leading-edge slats; overweight [empty 1512kg, gross 1879kg]; XP-31 (tier II). (Bowers, 333-335)

· ​​Henschel Hs 125 -- 

· ​​Nakajima Ki-12 -- "apex of the design" could actually be the Ki-12 in Japan, inspired by D.510, developed with French engineers to have retractable undercarriage; lost to Ki-27 (tier III) for Japanese Army contract.  A similar evaluation was made by the Japanese Navy with A5M3a, but ultimately lost to A5M4 (tier III) (represented in-game with Kotobuki 41 engine).

 

Conclusion

If it were up to me (it's not!), then based on all the above, I would still do:

 

Tier II = D.501

-- 1 engine upgrade [H-S 12Xbrs 660hp ► H-S 12Xcrs 690hp]

-- 1 airframe upgrade [D.500 D.501]

-- 2 armament upgrades [2x 7.7mm Vickers (S) 4x 7.5mm Darne (S+W) 1x20mm S7 (E) + 2x Darne (S)]

 

Tier III = D.510

-- 1 engine upgrade [H-S 12Xcrs 690hp H-S 12Ycrs 760hp]

-- 1-2 armament upgrades (1x20mm S7 (E) + 2x Darne (W) 1x20mm S7 (E) + 2x MAC 1934 (W) and if balance permitting, then the 2nd armament upgrade (20mm S7 20mm S9)

 

Will edit above as more detail discovered.


Edited by J311yfish, 25 May 2018 - 10:20 AM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


jack_wdw #142 Posted 12 May 2018 - 09:20 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 2196 battles
  • 591
  • Member since:
    09-28-2012

Is there any other Tier II light fighter with a 20mm +2x7.7mm configuration?
I think it would be way too OP for tier II.
XP-31 is comparable at tier II and i read a lot of that plane being very OP for tier II.
Ar-80 at tier III would also be comparable in terms of armament upgrades, all metal monoplane witrh fixed undercarriage and more or less engine upgrades with the same hp-rate.


I still prefer them altogether as Tier III (2 airframes, 3 engine upgrades, 3 armament upgrades with 20mm starting from d.501 airframe)
(Last version of the D.510 was armed with one hub cannon and 4*30cal MG's, which is already a tad too heavy for tier III, maybe exclude the wing-mounted guns?)
But that's my opinion, i really prefer a parasol light fighter at tier II, because it was very typical for french aviation late 20's early 30's.

 



J311yfish #143 Posted 12 May 2018 - 12:06 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View Postjack_wdw, on 12 May 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

Is there any other Tier II light fighter with a 20mm +2x7.7mm configuration?
I think it would be way too OP for tier II.
XP-31 is comparable at tier II and i read a lot of that plane being very OP for tier II.
Ar-80 at tier III would also be comparable in terms of armament upgrades, all metal monoplane witrh fixed undercarriage and more or less engine upgrades with the same hp-rate.

 

These are good points, and I have added both XP-31 and Ar 80 as reference aircraft.  They are certainly a closer match (better than P-26 and Ba.27M) since they both have liquid-cooled vee engines rather than air-cooled radials.  The XP-31 in particular has a very strong resemblance.

 

I will look closer at historical context and performance of the 20mm's, S7 & S9 (France), MG-FF (Germany).


Edited by J311yfish, 21 May 2018 - 10:35 AM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #144 Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:21 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View Postjack_wdw, on 12 May 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

Is there any other Tier II light fighter with a 20mm +2x7.7mm configuration?

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.225 (1931) single-seater, as MS.227 (1933), appears to be the best example thus far.  Both of us have considered the MS.225 to be tier II.

 

Another example for context is the Mureaux 170 (11/1932) single-seater developed into Mureaux 180 (02/1935) two-seater, modified 04/1935 to have the 12xcrs and 20mm, but considered to be obsolete by 04/1936.

 

An article here (Flight 11/07/1935, 5 pages) does a good job covering the rapid changes in fighter design spanning what is here considered to be tier II-III; many of these aircraft are already in-game.

 

Another article here covers the cannon vs. machinegun debate, though somewhat after the fact (Flight 12/17/1936); Mureaux 190, Hispano Suiza 12X, 12Y, Dewoitine D.373, Dewoitine D.510, Potez 63, Amiot 144 all mentioned.

 

-- Dewoitine D.372 and Loire 46 C1 both have wing-mounted cannons at a time when armament was on the increase; article here (Flight 01/24/1935 p.88) describes them (among others) as a response to the British F.7/30 interceptor competition in which a move was made to 4 guns.  We do have an F.7/30 aircraft in-game -- the Bristol 133 (07/1934) at tier III, the Supermarine Type 224 (02/1934) at tier III and the Gloster Gladiator (09/1934) likewise anticipated at tier III.


Edited by J311yfish, 12 May 2018 - 10:08 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #145 Posted 15 May 2018 - 12:39 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Single-seat fighter ("C1") contests by year

 

Below is a list of single-seat fighter contests by year. It is not 100% complete yet but can be built upon.  The problem is that bits and pieces are scattered across individual aircraft histories, rather than compiled in one cohesive narrative.  Anyway, it is useful because it provides context that can be useful in prioritizing aircraft per tier.  The Ni-D.62/622/629 is an excellent choice for tier 1, for example, based on competition outcomes and orders placed. 

 

All information from The Complete Book of Fighters (Salamander 2001), by William Green and Gordon Swanborough, unless otherwise specified.

 


 

1923 C1 program -- programme chasseur monoplace -- evaluation held 1925-1926

Ni-D.42 -- 1st place

Ni-D.44

Ni.D-46

Gourdou-Lesseurre 32 -- 2nd place

Dewoitine D.9 (06/1924) -- 6th place

Dewoitine D.12 (06/1924) -- 3rd place; second prototype becomes D.21, exported

Dewoitine D.19 (summer 1925) -- sold to Switzlerland, Belgium

Dewoitine D.15 -- not submitted

 


 

1926 chasseurs legers (light fighters), a.k.a. Jocky program

Requirements:

-- moderate power
-- minimal equipment
-- 2x7.7mm Vickers with 300 rounds each
-- emphasis on climb rate
-- endurance of 1.5 hours at full throttle
-- ceiling 8000m

Contenders:

Ni-D.48 (11/1926; official trials 05/19270-8/1927; by this time Ni-D.62 already in production

Ni-D.52 (end 1927) -- to Spain

Ni-D.62 (01/1928) -- ordered -- refined 1930 and ordered again as Ni-D.622 (09/1930); deliveries continued into late 1933; late 50 completed as Ni-D.629 (trial late 1933; acceptance 05/1935)

MS.121 (1927) -- discarded in favor of MS.221

MS.221 (1928), MS.222, MS.223 (1930) -- Jockey concept deemed failure --> developed further MS.224 (1931), MS.225 adopted as interim fighter pending 1931 C1 program

Wib 13 (130) Trombe (Whirlwind) (1928) -- extremely robust, excellent agility, but insufficient power, further development as Wib 160 Trombe II and Wib 170 Tornade

Wib 170 Tornade (Tornado) (early 1929) -- excellent performance, but Jockey program pronounced failure

 


 

1928 C1 program

Wibault Wib 210 (04/1929) -- cantilever low-wing; abandoned due to vibration at 350 km/h

Dewoitine D.53/530 (03/1931) -- may have been a contender, verify

Ni-D.82 (10/.1931) -- may have been a contender, verify

 


 

1930 C1 program contenders -- "10 designs awarded prototype contracts" (Green, 417); "27 submissions, from which 11 basic designs selected for prototype development" (Green, 442)

 

-- LOW WING:

Dewoitine D.500 (06/18/1932) --> 60 ordered 11/1933 (15 Dewoitine, 45 LeO; 5 by LeO to permit H-S S7); the 15 Dewoitin 500s instead became 8xD500, 5xD501, 2xD.510

Wibault-Penhoet 313 (11/1932) -- the only contender to deviate from H-S 12Xbrs, instead choosing Gnome-Rhone 9Kbrs 520hp; the last Wibault fighter; variable-pitch propeller (innovative at the time)

MS.325 (early 1933)

Hanriot H.110 (Moulin, 7)

Bernard 260 (Moulin, 7)

 

-- PARASOL:

D.370 (10/1931) -- private venture, D.371 (02/1934) ordered by Armee de l'Air and D.373/376 for Aeronautique Navale; all delivered by 12/1935.

D.570 (11/1933)

Ni-D.121 (11/25/1932; official tests 05/01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production
Ni-D.122 (07/23/1932; official tests 09/28/1932; lost 04/13/1933; 2nd prototype 07/13/1933; official tests 01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production

MS.275 (1934)

 

-- GULL WING: -- "gull wing condemned by pilots" -- Pulawski wing pioneered in Poland

Loire 43 (09/1934) Loire 45 (02/1933), Loire 46 (09/1934; re-engined 02/1935; order for 5+60 to Armee de l'Air; last delivered 07/1937 obsolescent.

Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) --> developed further as 2-seat Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935)

Gourdou-Lesseurre 482 (02/1933) -- last G-L fighter to be built; "1 of 5 gull-wing fighters for contest" (Green, 256)

Dewoitine D.560 (10/05/1932) --> rebuilt as D.570 (11/1933) parasol

 

-- BIPLANE:

Bleriot-Spad S.510 (Moulin, 7)

 

1931 C1 program (01/26/1931) contenders: "9 competing aircraft" (Green, 61-62)

Dewoitine D.500 (06/1932) --> winner

Bernard 260 (09/1932) --> 261 retractable undercarriage incomplete; 262 carrier-borne unbuilt

 


1934 -- "Aviation Militaire" becomes "Armee de l'Air"

 

1934 C1 program (07/13/1934) contenders -- 9 proposals -- to replace D.500, LN.46, D.371 (Botquin, 3)

Requirements:
-- 450 km/h (279.6 mph) max speed
-- 2.5 hr duration at 320 km/h (198.8 mph)
-- climb to 4000m (13,123.4 ft) in less than 6 minutes
-- service ceiling of 11,500m (37,729.7 ft)
-- armament either [1x20mm HS-404 + 2x7.5mm MAC 1934] or [4x7.5mm] or [2x20mm]
2 Categories:
-- Standard fighter -- Hispano-Suiza or Gnome-Rhone 800-1000hp engine
-- Light Fighter -- Potez or Salmson 400-500hp engine
 
STANDARD:
Dewoitine D.513  ...    482.8 km/h …
Morane-Saulnier MS.405 Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 900hp 443 km/h @4000m 1x20mm H-S S9 + 2x7.7mm (W)** -- winner as of 07/1937 (Botquin, 3)
LN 160/161  Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs 690hp 480 km/h @4000m 1x20mm + 2x7.5mm (W)    --> CAO 200
Bloch 150  Gnome-Rhone 14Kfs 930hp @4350m ...  2x20mm H-S 404 (W)    --> Bloch 151/152 etc
Loire 250  Hispano-Suiza 14Ha 980hp  482.8 km/h 2x20mm (W) + 2x7.5mm (W)
Bleriot-SPAD S.710 Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp 470 km/h  1x20mm + 4x7.5mm (W) + 1x7.5mm aft-firing; FF 04/1937; crashed 06/18/1937, development abandoned. (Green, 68)
 
LIGHT:
Arsenal VG-30  Potez 12 Dc 610hp@1000m  ...  1x20mm + 2x7.5mm MAC (proposed)   --> VG-33 etc.
ANF-Les Mureaux 190 Salmson 12Vars 450hp   500 km/h 1x20mm + 2x7.5mm    --> Potez 230
Caudron-Renault CR.710 Renault 12R 01 450hp  ...  2x20mm   --> C.714
 

1936 C1 program (06/15/1936)
-- 500 km/h (310.7mph) max speed
-- climb to 8000m (26,246.7 ft) in less than 15 minutes
amdendment to specification (09/__/1936)
-- 520 km/h (310.7 mph) max speed
 

1937 C1 program (01/12/1937) -- 2 categories:
 
STANDARD:
 Dewoitine D.520  (FF 10/1938)  --> 200 ordered 03/14/1939; further order 07/11/1939
 Bloch 151/152 (08/1938, 12/1938)
 Loire-Nieuport 60 (CAO 200) (01/1939)
 Morane-Saulnier MS.450 (FF 04/1939)
 Arsenal VG 33 (FF 05/1939)
 
LIGHT:
Caudron CR.714 (07/1938)
 

Plan II for air force expansion (10/26/1936) -- achieve double strength by end of 1939
Plan III (1936) cancelled due to procurement difficulties late 1936
Plan IV (1937) cancelled due to procurement difficulties early 1937
As of (01/1938), 793 fighters on strength, of which 54 are Dewoitine D.510 (the most advanced)
Plan V hastily approved (03/15/1938); 3-stage plan to increase total number of aircraft to 2617, including 1081 fighters, over 3 years.
 

Edited by J311yfish, 11 October 2018 - 12:46 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #146 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:21 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Tier I alternates

 

Nieuport-Delage 72 (01/1928)

 

Amiot-SECM 110 (06/1928) -- M.Dutartre -- 

 

Dewoitine D.27 (06/1928) -- Fighter -- Émile Dewoitine -- 66 for Switzerland; 4 for France -- development continued as D.53

 

Wibault 130 Trombe (Whirlwind) (__/1928) -- 

 

Wibault 160 Trombe II (__/1928) -- development continued from Wib 130 Trombe

 

Wibault 170 Tornade (Tornado) (__/1929) -- 2 built -- development continued from Wib 130 Trombe, Wib 160 Trombe II

 

Bernard 20 (07/1929) -- Louis Béchereau -- low-wing monoplane; racing heritage; resemblance to Bernard 70-series, Dewoitine D.500/501/510

 

Bernard 74 (02/1931, 10/1931) -- 2 built -- low-wing monoplane; racing heritage; resemblance to later Bernard 260, Dewoitine D.500/501/510

 

Dewoitine D.53 (03/1931) -- Fighter -- Émile Dewoitine -- ~7 built -- development continued from D.27

 

Nieuport-Delage 82 (10/1931) -- ~1 built -- eclipsed by Ni-D.120 series

 

 

 

Potez 25 TOE (__/1925) -- reconnaissance-bomber/army co-operation -- Louis Coroller -- 3,500+ built

 

Levasseur P.L.7 Series 2 (__/1926) -- long-range carrier-borne torpedo-bomber -- 41 built

 

Levasseur P.L.101 (__/1929) -- carrier-borne reconnaissance -- 60 built

 

Levasseur P.L.14 (__/1929) -- torpedo-bomber/reconnaissance floatplane -- 30 built

 

Breguet Bre 270 (__/192_) -- observation -- 176 built

 

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 24 May 2018 - 11:44 AM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #147 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:21 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Tier II alternates

 

Bernard 260 (09/1932) -- fighter prototype; 2 underwing cannons (verify); lost to D.500

 

Nieuport-Delage 121 (11/1932)  -- Albert Mary -- ~2 built -- eclipsed by D.500

 

ANF-Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) -- fighter prototype -- 2 built -- [1,670 kg] -- rejected

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.325 (__/1933)

 

Hanriot H-110 (04/1933)

 

Nieuport-Delage 125 (06/1934) --- 1 built -- 20mm provision -- eclipsed by D.510

 

ANF-Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935) -- 2-seat fighter prototype -- 1 built -- [1,953 kg] -- development from ANF-Mureaux 170 -- 20mm

 

 

 

Potez 39 A2 (01/1934) -- observation -- ~250 built

 

ANF-Mureaux 115 (03/1935) -- observation -- 297 built -- 20mm

 

Lioré​-et-Olivier LeO H-257bis (__/19__) -- torpedo-bomber floatplane -- 91 built -- entered service mid-1935

 

Latécoère Laté 29.0 (__/1931) -- torpedo-bomber floatplane -- ~35 built

 

Levasseur P.L.15 (__/1932) -- torpedo-bomber/reconnaissance floatplane -- 17 built

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 27 May 2018 - 06:50 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #148 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:27 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Tier III alternates

 

Nieuport-Delage 140 (03/1935) -- 2-seat carrier-borne diver bomber

 

Loire 210 (03/1935) -- ship-borne fighter floatplane -- 21 built -- entered service 08/1939

 

Curtiss SBC Helldiver (12/1935) -- from USA

 

Vought SB2U Vindicator (01/1936) -- from USA

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 24 May 2018 - 05:58 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #149 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:31 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Tier IV alternates

 

 

Curtiss Hawk 75A -- entered French service starting 03/1939-05/1939

 

Koolhoven F.K.58 (07/1938, 06/1939) -- Erich Schatzki -- 36 ordered (07/1939); 13+1 delivered -- [2,750 kg]

 

more

 

Loire-Nieuport LN 401 (mid-1938) -- ship-borne dive-bomber -- ~72 built -- only 3 in service by 09/1939

 

Latécoère 298D (05/1936, 10/1938) -- torpedo bomber/reconnaissance floatplane -- 130+ built -- entered service end 1938

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 29 October 2018 - 08:18 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #150 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:32 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Tier V alternates

 

SNCAO C.A.O.200 (01/1939) -- interceptor fighter -- M.Marie -- 1 built -- [2,500 kg]

 

Roussel 30 (04/1939) -- fighter-bomber -- M.Roussel -- 1 built -- [1,765 kg]

 

Potez 230 (~12/1939) -- lightweight fighter -- Brunet, Lemaitre, Hubert -- 1 built -- [1,800 kg]

 

Bloch MB.700 (04/1940) -- Light Interceptor Fighter -- André Herbemont -- 1 built -- [1,850+ kg]

 

 

Grumman F4F Wildat

https://worldofwarpl...planes/usa/f4f/

https://en.wikipedia...man_F4F_Wildcat


Edited by J311yfish, 27 January 2019 - 04:57 AM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #151 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:32 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Tier VI alternates

 

Caudron C.760/770 (early 1940, 05/1940) -- lightweight fighter -- Louis Renault -- 3 built -- [2,000 kg / 2,248 kg]

 

SNCAC NC.900 (Focke-Wulf Fw-190)

 

Douglas SBD Dauntless (__/19__) -- to France (__/19__)

 

 

 

Tier VII alternates

 

Chance-Vought F4U-7 Corsair (__/19__) -- to France (__/19__)

 


Edited by J311yfish, 27 May 2018 - 08:50 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #152 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:33 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Tier VIII, IX, X alternates

 

Heinkel He 162 (12/1944) -- [2,805 kg] -- developed by Germany; continued in-game for Japan as Ki-162-I and Ki-162-III

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.710 (design 1947)

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.711 (design 1947)

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.752 (proposal 03/1952)


Edited by J311yfish, 11 October 2018 - 03:47 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


jack_wdw #153 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:42 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 2196 battles
  • 591
  • Member since:
    09-28-2012

View PostJ311yfish, on 16 May 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

Tier II alternates

 

Bernard 260 (09/1932) -- fighter prototype; 2 underwing cannons (verify); lost to D.500

 

Nieuport-Delage 121 (11/1932)  -- Albert Mary -- ~2 built -- eclipsed by D.500

 

ANF-Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) -- fighter prototype -- 2 built -- rejected

 

Nieuport-Delage 125 (06/1934) --- 1 built -- 20mm provision -- eclipsed by D.510

 

ANF-Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935) -- 2-seat fighter prototype -- 1 built -- development from ANF-Mureaux 170 -- 20mm

 

 

 

I would personally choose the ANF-Mureaux 170 then, just because its a parasole fighter without cannon armament and powered by HP12Xbrs engine.
D.53 might also rather be more at its place in Tier II.

Personally i think light fighters armed with 20mm cannons or powered by HP12Ybrs engines are way too OP for tier II.
I remain convinced that D.500/501/510 would perfectly fit in that Tier III spot.

Edited by jack_wdw, 16 May 2018 - 09:54 AM.


J311yfish #154 Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:21 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

 

View Postjack_wdw, on 16 May 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

 

I would personally choose the ANF-Mureaux 170 then, just because its a parasole fighter without cannon armament and powered by HP12Xbrs engine.

Personally i think light fighters armed with 20mm cannons or powered by HP12Ybrs engines are way too OP for tier II.
I remain convinced that D.500/501/510 would perfectly fit in that Tier III spot.

 

ANF-Mureaux 170 is not a parasol, it is actually a gull wing.  If any consideration is to be given to historical narrative, then it would not likely have much place in a progression over the alternatives that happened to be favored by the French.  See the results of their 1930 C1 competition in which 3 categories (low-wing, parasol, gull-wing) are compared against each other:

 

View PostJ311yfish, on 14 May 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

1930 C1 program contenders -- "10 designs awarded prototype contracts" (Green, 417); "27 submissions, from which 11 basic designs selected for prototype development" (Green, 442)

 

-- LOW WING:

Dewoitine D.500 (06/18/1932) --> 60 ordered 11/1933 (15 Dewoitine, 45 LeO; 5 by LeO to permit H-S S7); the 15 Dewoitine 500s instead became 8xD500, 5xD501, 2xD.510

Wibault-Penhoet 313 (11/1932) -- the only contender to deviate from H-S 12Xbrs, instead choosing Gnome-Rhone 9Kbrs 520hp; the last Wibault fighter; variable-pitch propeller (innovative at the time)

MS.325 (early 1933)

 

-- PARASOL:

D.370 (10/1931) -- private venture, D.371 (02/1934) ordered by Armee de l'Air and D.373/376 for Aeronautique Navale; all delivered by 12/1935.

D.570 (11/1933)

Ni-D.121 (11/25/1932; official tests 05/01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production
Ni-D.122 (07/23/1932; official tests 09/28/1932; lost 04/13/1933; 2nd prototype 07/13/1933; official tests 01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production

MS.275 (1934)

 

-- GULL WING: -- "gull wing condemned by pilots" -- Pulawski wing pioneered in Poland

Loire 43 (09/1934) Loire 45 (02/1933), Loire 46 (09/1934; re-engined 02/1935; order for 5+60 to Armee de l'Air; last delivered 07/1937 obsolescent.

Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) --> developed further as 2-seat Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935)

Gourdou-Lesseurre 482 (02/1933) -- last G-L fighter to be built; "1 of 5 gull-wing fighters for contest" (Green, 256)

Dewoitine D.560 (10/05/1932) --> rebuilt as D.570 (11/1933) parasol

 

 

1931 C1 program (01/26/1931) contenders: "9 competing aircraft" (Green, 61-62)

Dewoitine D.500 (06/1932) --> winner

Bernard 260 (09/1932) --> 261 retractable undercarriage incomplete; 262 carrier-borne unbuilt

 

 

The list above is simplified from the narratives for each aircraft, yet when they are put together you can see that the French chose a winner from each category (as evidenced by production orders placed), and an overall winner, D.500.

 

The Mureaux 170 was not a winner in its category -- that honor would go to the gull-winged Loire 46 despite being obsolescent 2 years later.  The gull wing concept is Polish in origin, there called the Pulawski wing (see PZL P.1 for Poland).  It is one of the defining characteristics of their early aircraft (with many imitators).  If it were up to me (it's not), I would leave the gull-winged progression to Poland, not just because it started there but because they don't have much going for them otherwise.

 

If you are determined to have D.500/501/510 all-together at tier III then a better choice, in my opinion, would be either to have continuity from tier I (such as a follow-on Nieuport-Delage parasol that was promising in trials but eclipsed by D.500), or continuity with tier III (such as a low-wing design like Bernard 74, Bernard 260, both of which have racing heritage -- a common theme).  A gull-wing at tier II would be kind of an odd duck.

 

I remain skeptical about having D.500/501/510 all together at tier III, though.  I can understand how you might consider a 20mm cannon to be "OP", especially given that the 20mm Oerlikon S9 in-game with Fantome is designated tier IV, but consider the severe lack of speed D.500/501/510 would have if placed at tier III.  Really -- look horizontally at other countries and try to imagine how that might play out.  Another thing to consider is that the D.500/501 entered service 7+ months prior to the SPAD S.510 (already designated in-game tier II) and the D.510 did not actually follow until 2 years later. Is that significant?  Maybe.  It starts to look significant when you look at neighboring aircraft (horizontally and vertically).  D.510 was also not the only early aircraft to propose, experiment with, or feature a 20mm motor cannon (early adopters will be identified by a 20mm tag).  Article here Flight Magazine 01/24/1935 p.38-39 describes the P.Z.L. P.24 (anticipated tier III Poland) as being an early adopter (radial + wing-mounted 20mm cannons), as well as the MS.225 with 20mm motor cannon (anticipated tier II France).

 

I think you have an interesting idea by leading up to Bloch with other radials, and I think more might be discovered along those lines by looking closer at specifications and orders for the French Navy.

 

These kinds of discussions are very valuable in order to move the project forward, thank you for that.


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


jack_wdw #155 Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:47 PM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 2196 battles
  • 591
  • Member since:
    09-28-2012
Well my case for the Tier III altogether is that it will start stock on the D.500. Which may indeed be underpowered for tier III.
But it's only the stock configuration. The entire serie would consist of 3 engine upgrades, 3 armament upgrades and 1 airframe upgrade (D.501).
For what i've always read the D.510 was a D.501 airframe paired with an upgraded HP12Y engine.
So either you put D.500 at tier II and you have a very little margin for upgrades over this tier and the next tier.

I would suspect the french light fighter line to be a TNB-line,  situated somewhere between british and yak light fighter lines.
The Bulldog in the British line on tier II is a plane that entered service in the late twenties.
It's a biplane with (stock) a 450hp bristol jupiter as engine and a pair of vickers MG's as armament.
Most tier II light fighters only carry a double machinegun as offensive armament.

A fast and manoeuverable cannon armed light fighter in tier II would be a sealclubber's heaven.
The British tier III Bristol 133 would be more or less equal to a D.500/501/510 line at tier III, as well as the German Tier III Ar.80.



 

J311yfish #156 Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:05 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Klimov engines in-game as an approximation for Hispano-Suiza 12Y's:

 

Tier 

(aircraft)

Aircraft

 

Engine

 

HP

 

Tier 

(engine)

Notes

 

IV I-17 M-100 750 IV = license-built 12Y (wiki)
    M-100A 860 V  
    M-103 960 V  
IV LaGG-3 series 4 M-105PA 1050 IV  
V Yak-7 M-105P 1050 V "design derived based on experience with 12Y" (wiki)
    M-105PD 1160 VI  
    M-105PF 1180 VI  
VI Yak-9 M-105PF 1180 VI  
    VK-109PF2 1280 VI  
    M-106-1sk 1350 VI "new engine, low alt, reduced compression ratio, single-speed supercharger" (wiki)
VII Yak-9U VK-105PF2 1280 VI  
    M-106-1sk 1350 VI "new engine, low alt, reduced compression ratio, single-speed supercharger" (wiki)
    VK-107A 1500 VII "new design, little in common with precursors" (wiki)
VII Yak-3 VK-108 1850 VIII "attempt to further develop VK-107" (wiki)

 


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #157 Posted 18 May 2018 - 01:47 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

 Here is an excellent reference aircraft -- the Renard R-36 from Belgium.  It is excellent because it utilized 3 different engines over a short duration of time, with development in parallel, very little change to the airframe, and just prior to the German invasion -- meaning a direct comparison across engine lines is possible, despite variability in horsepower and drag.  

 

Airframe -- (first flight) -- Engine -- Max speed -- weight; dimensions

R-36 -- (11/05/1937) -- Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 910hp 12-cylinder liquid-cooled Vee -- 505 km/h @ 4000m; empty 1,770kg; loaded 2,470kg; span 11.64m; length 8.80m; height 2.90m; wing area 20.00m2.

R-37 -- (07/__/1939) -- Gnome-Rhone 14N-21 1,100hp 14-cylinder air-cooled radial -- 510 km/h @ 5000m; empty 1,810kg; loaded 2,460kg; dimensions as R-36 except for length 8.40m.

R-38 -- (08/04/1939) -- Rolls-Royce Merlin II 1030hp 12-cylinder liquid-cooled Vee -- 545 km/h @ 5000m; empty 1,950kg; loaded 2,600kg; dimensions as R-36.

Data: (Green, 490-491)

 

Data for R-37 is estimated by Green.  It was displayed statically 07/1939 (here too with Merlin) but flight data is not known, even though it was flown by a German officer after occupation 05/1940.

 

Links above are to the engines in-game for Fairey Fantôme (tier IV), SNCASE SE.100 (tier V), and Supermarine Spitfire I (tier V).

 

The R-36 competed against the Fairey Fantôme (tier IV) for a Belgian order, whose specifications (noted here) can be compared directly to French specifications (noted here) that resulted in MS.405 and Bloch 150 -- meaning their placement at tier IV/V can be authenticated.

 

Airframe -- armament

R-36 -- 4x7.7mm (W) + 1x20mm (E) -- flown with this

R-37 -- 4x7.7mm (W) or 2x13.2mm (W) -- proposed, but not necessarily flown with this

R-38 -- 4x7.7mm (W) or 4x13.2mm (W) -- flown with this

 

So, by switching from H-S 12Ycrs (tier IV) to Merlin II (tier V):

  • loss of 20mm motor cannon
  • loaded weight +130kg
  • airspeed +40 km/h @ greater altitude

 

Now we have a quantifiable (and verifiable) assessment of the value of the 20mm as it relates to airspeed at tier IV/V.

 

Going further, if we look at in-game values for the 20mm motor cannon on Fantôme, especially effective range, then perhaps we can figure out how much "time on target" might be achieved by the D.501/510 if it is placed at tier II or tier III. For example, if you go head-to-head with someone, then you turn to fire at their tail -- how much time do you have to land a shot? and how quickly must you turn in order to have a reasonable chance of putting that 20mm to work?  I mention this, because as it looks right now, the A5M and Ki-27 appear to murder the D.510 at tier III.

 

20mm Oerlikon S9 (H)  IV

Damage per Second 70

Rate of Fire 300 rounds/min

Effective range 580m

* D.500 -- 371 km/h 

D.501 -- 367 km/h @ 5000m

D.510 -- 402 km/h @ 5000m

Fairey Fantôme (tier IV) -- 430 km/h @ best altitude (premium)

 

MG-FF (H)  IV

Damage per Second 60

Rate of Fire 320 rounds/min

Effective range 580m 

Fw 57 (tier III) -- 350km/h (default engine with default 2x20mm); 400 km/h at best alt (max config)

Fw 159 (tier III) -- 400 km/h @ best alt (default engine, max cannon); 440 km/h @ best alt (max config) -- 2470 xp to unlock cannon

Do 17Z-7 (tier III) -- 410 km/h @ best alt (premium)

Ar 80 (tier III) -- 420 km/g @ best altitude (first engine capable of cannon); 450 km/h @ best altitude (max config) -- 650 xp + 2470 xp to unlock cannon

 

Based on the above, the D.510 at maximum configuration is comparable in speed to the Fw 159 at its earliest cannon configuration.

 

Also based on the above, the amount of time (battles) to get from D.500 to D.510 would probably be <5 battles (~650 xp for engine upgrade + ~2470 xp for cannon).

 

This may make a strong case for D.500/501/510 at tier II, and D.513 or MS.405, or something else at tier III.  Perhaps a closer look horizontally at pre-Hurricane UK will be more telling.  Another possibility is to remove D.500/501/510 from progression entirely and replace with parasol fighter development.

 

Something else to consider, though, would be dive speed and dive acceleration, because all of the above are level flight speeds only. The Fw 57's slower default level speed is made up for by attacking from altitude, for example.  Also, if C.714's performance is indicative of a overall theme for the French, then perhaps we will see D.500/501/510's 'deficiency' in level speed made up for with good dive speed.

 

Anyway, there's kicking the can around a bit :)

 


Edited by J311yfish, 18 May 2018 - 11:48 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


jack_wdw #158 Posted 18 May 2018 - 03:45 PM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 2196 battles
  • 591
  • Member since:
    09-28-2012

Now your discussing my heritage. :)
As a belgian i am very fond of the R.36.
It was a beautiful and excellent plane.
It entered a competition to replace the Fairey Firefly.
It don't know if it competed with the Fantome but definitely with the Hurricane (which in hindsight was considered inferior to the R.36).
There was a cool documentary about Alfred Renard on belgian television some years back.
He really was a visionary but didn't get the appreciation he deserved.
During the war years he was an active member of the resistance movement in belgium.

The r.36 prototype crashed during its demonstration flight because it's radio equipment came loose in a dive, knocking out the testpilot.
Rumors have it, that some foul play might have been involved. Certain politicians were in heavy favour of a SABCA license build of the hurricane  (with 4x 0.50 cals instead of the 30cals).
Being a lighter, more streamlined and agile fighter and packing a 20mm cannon, in hindsight the r.36 was regarded to be the better choice.
It was faster than the hurricane which had a more powerful engine. It actually had more or less the performance of a Dewoitine D.520
https://en.wikipedia...iki/Renard_R.36

R.36 may be a tier IV, but R.37 and R.38 feel more at place in Tier V
The plane in-game that (according to me) bears the most resemblance with the R.36 is the early Yak-1 with bubble canopy.

The R.37 was a much later evolution (+2 years) on the same airframe with a radial.
It got a lot of positive attention at Paris Air Salon 1939, but the war prohibited its development.
It had a lighter machinegun armament and no 20MM cannon, but it could fitted with 8 light bombs and  grenade launchers.
This airplane was last seen at Melsbroek airfield, when a luftwaffe pilot flew it to germany for testing.
www.belgian-wings.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/CivilPics/civil_pics_ooaaa_ooczz/Renard%20R-37%20OO-ATJ/Renard_R37%20FNAR.pdf


The r.38/40 was an evolution with a merlin II engine, mainly to give it better altitude performance. The french were interested in this one, but it never materialized due to the occupation of both countries.
http://www.belgian-w.../renard_r38.htm
There was even a propsed zwilling version of this version in the pipeline.

Look we can discuss this as much as we want.
I can't be really convinced otherwise as the D500/501/510 being the perfect french candidate for tier III.
I see similarity in terms of upgrades with the english and german light fighter line.

I do agree with you that  D.500 is more of a tier II, but i can only see it as a premium in tier II.
I'm absolutely opposed to d.501 as tier II, mainly because of its cannon armament which i think is too OP for that tier for a light fighter.
D.501/510 can be a tier III line.
Or if you think D.501 is too weak for tier III, you can have the D.510 as a tier III premium.
But a lot of other planes start undertiered in their stock configuration.
First to come to mind are the F2a and LaGG-3, which also feature as a premium in a lower tier.
 


Edited by jack_wdw, 18 May 2018 - 06:48 PM.


J311yfish #159 Posted 19 May 2018 - 11:52 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

It may be that the difference in level speed is made up for in Optimum Altitude and Dive Speed, like Fw 57 -- here is a quick comparison of Ar 80, Fw 57, Ki-27, with configurations noted (spoiler tag):

 

 

It could be imagined that the D.500/501/510, at tier III, would resemble the Ar 80 and Fw 57 in Optimum Altitude and Dive Speed, yet resemble the Ki-27 in turn rate.

 

(I don't know how Optimum Airspeed is derived, or exactly how it affects physics, but that is another variable for which they will have to account.)

 

One more comparison -- XP-31 vs Ki-27 vs Ar 80:

 

 

This just gives us an approximation for basement values of D.500 if it were instead to begin at tier II.  It would be faster than XP-31 at best altitude.

 

Okay on to other things!


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #160 Posted 27 May 2018 - 10:21 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2700 battles
  • 1,374
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Minor update 05/2018

 

 

Where we are at:

-- standardized metric values for speed, altitude, span, length, height, weight, etc.

-- standardized color schemes for first flight dates, designers, significant historical notes, significant performance figures, delivery dates

-- standardized criteria for data inclusion; published primary sources or first-hand accounts as highest priority, Wikipedia for leads only

-- detail saturation from multiple sources to verify information, identify historical development and determine tier placement via module progression

-- lateral inferences made from premium aircraft in-game (France and U.K.'s Fairey Fantome with Hispano-Suiza engine and 20mm motor cannon)

-- lateral inferences made from aircraft known to feature French engines (I'm looking at YOU, Hs 129B!)

-- lateral inferences made from highly-detailed United Kingdom tech tree project

-- lateral inferences made from Poland tech tree project

-- identification of 'alternates' -- those prototypes and projects that for one reason or another did not proceed to production, and may show up premiums

-- added tags for early use of 20mm cannons (Ex: 20mm) -- this is necessary to identify potential for imbalance if any

-- added tags for normal loaded weight (Ex: 2,000 kg) -- this is necessary to understand the influence of the early Jockey program on subsequent development

 

 

Where we are going!

-- detail refinement via William Green, Flight Magazine archive (British aviation history) -- ongoing

-- working on Germany to improve France and Italy: historical development, first flight dates, production dates, service entry dates

-- lateral inferences from Germany suggest MS.225 as tier 1 for France, and Fiat CR.30 for Italy, for example

-- French Secret Projects 1: Post War Fighters, by Jean-Christophe Carbonel (Crecy 2016)

-- French Secret Projects 2: Cold War Bombers, Patrol, and Assault Aircraft, by Jean-Christophe Carbonel (Crecy 2017)

-- identify potential for alternate timeline looking forward from 05/1940 -- such as Bugatti 100P fighter development

-- identify potential for alternate timeline for Italy that is favorable to Sergio Stefanutti -- such as light fighter development response to France

-- investigate all development related to and leading up to Fouga Magister (Robert Castello previously of D.520)

 


Edited by J311yfish, 27 May 2018 - 11:53 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users