164 replies to this topic

[J311yfish]

Here is a closer look at the Boeing P-26, Dewoitine D.500-510, and Breda Ba.27M, in a spectrum from Tier II (on the left) to Tier III (on the right).

 

There are many similarities, and interestingly, all of them served in China.

 

Comparison

-- P-26 in-game has flaps, meaning it is actually a P-26B (flaps + R-1340-33 engine upgrade); delivered 02/10/1936 to 03/07/1936 (details here).

-- Data above comes directly from other tech tree projects (USA, Italy, China; sources identified there) and Wargaming data in-game as of today (05/11/18).

-- Purple text = tier is known directly based on a module that exists in-game (SPAD.510, Fairey Fantome)

-- Maroon text = tier is inferred based on known modules

 

Summary

	D.500	D.501	D.510
Engine	II	II or III	IV
Airframe
Armament	II (S)	III (E) and ? (W)	III or IV (E) and ? (W)
Overall

 

 

Discussion

It is difficult to reach a firm (indisputable) conclusion for Overall tier for each without knowing Airframe tiers, but if some inferences can be made from the Comparison and Summary alone above, then it would seem that:

-- D.500 is tier II

-- D.501 is tier II or III

-- D.510 represents the apex of the design when compared to P-26 and Ba.27M. If premiums are still considered to be 'middle of the road' for a tier (as claimed in the distant past), then D.510 should be tier III ('top of the tier').

-- D.500-510 airframes could be considered to be 'sleeker' (better aerodynamic qualities) in that they are cantilevered with no external bracing, yet perhaps more 'fragile' (less hitpoints) for having a single-spar wing.

-- The 20mm Oerlikon cannon in-game for Fantome is the S9 and is rated tier IV.  The 20mm on the D.501 is the S7, so presumably tier III.  The 20mm on the D.510 could be either the S7 or S9, more data needed, but for balance purposes S7 alone could make sense if the 12Ycrs engine is indeed tier IV as it is for the Fantome.

 

But, let's try to look closer at airframes anyway -- 

 

Airframes

If it is possible to determine the tier of airframes based on their defining features compared to those of aircraft already in-game, then here is what is known:

 

-- P-26 analogues​

· ​​Nakajima Ki-11 -- inspired by Boeing P-26, 4 prototypes of Ki-11 completed 04/1935 - 12/1935; lost to Ki-10 (tier II).

· ​​Boeing YP-29 -- advancement of Boeing P-26; featured cantilever wings, retractable undercarriage, cockpit canopy, wing flaps; first flight 01/1934; did not proceed to production; in-game YP-29 (tier III).

· ​​Breda Ba.27M -- Italian implementation of P-26 concepts; Ba.27M (tier III).

 

-- D.500/501-510 analogues

· ​​Curtiss XP-31 -- all-metal; enclosed cockpit; wing flaps; full-span leading-edge slats; overweight [empty 1512kg, gross 1879kg]; XP-31 (tier II). (Bowers, 333-335)

· ​​Henschel Hs 125 -- 

· ​​Nakajima Ki-12 -- "apex of the design" could actually be the Ki-12 in Japan, inspired by D.510, developed with French engineers to have retractable undercarriage; lost to Ki-27 (tier III) for Japanese Army contract.  A similar evaluation was made by the Japanese Navy with A5M3a, but ultimately lost to A5M4 (tier III) (represented in-game with Kotobuki 41 engine).

 

Conclusion

If it were up to me (it's not!), then based on all the above, I would still do:

 

Tier II = D.501

-- 1 engine upgrade [H-S 12Xbrs 660hp ► H-S 12Xcrs 690hp]

-- 1 airframe upgrade [D.500 ► D.501]

-- 2 armament upgrades [2x 7.7mm Vickers (S) ► 4x 7.5mm Darne (S+W) ► 1x20mm S7 (E) + 2x Darne (S)]

 

Tier III = D.510

-- 1 engine upgrade [H-S 12Xcrs 690hp ► H-S 12Ycrs 760hp]

-- 1-2 armament upgrades (1x20mm S7 (E) + 2x Darne (W) ► 1x20mm S7 (E) + 2x MAC 1934 (W) and if balance permitting, then the 2nd armament upgrade (20mm S7 ► 20mm S9)

 

Will edit above as more detail discovered.

Edited by J311yfish, 25 May 2018 - 10:20 AM.

[jack_wdw]

Is there any other Tier II light fighter with a 20mm +2x7.7mm configuration?
I think it would be way too OP for tier II.
XP-31 is comparable at tier II and i read a lot of that plane being very OP for tier II.
Ar-80 at tier III would also be comparable in terms of armament upgrades, all metal monoplane witrh fixed undercarriage and more or less engine upgrades with the same hp-rate.

I still prefer them altogether as Tier III (2 airframes, 3 engine upgrades, 3 armament upgrades with 20mm starting from d.501 airframe)
(Last version of the D.510 was armed with one hub cannon and 4*30cal MG's, which is already a tad too heavy for tier III, maybe exclude the wing-mounted guns?)
But that's my opinion, i really prefer a parasol light fighter at tier II, because it was very typical for french aviation late 20's early 30's.

 

[J311yfish]

jack_wdw, on 12 May 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

Is there any other Tier II light fighter with a 20mm +2x7.7mm configuration?
I think it would be way too OP for tier II.
XP-31 is comparable at tier II and i read a lot of that plane being very OP for tier II.
Ar-80 at tier III would also be comparable in terms of armament upgrades, all metal monoplane witrh fixed undercarriage and more or less engine upgrades with the same hp-rate.

 

These are good points, and I have added both XP-31 and Ar 80 as reference aircraft.  They are certainly a closer match (better than P-26 and Ba.27M) since they both have liquid-cooled vee engines rather than air-cooled radials.  The XP-31 in particular has a very strong resemblance.

 

I will look closer at historical context and performance of the 20mm's, S7 & S9 (France), MG-FF (Germany).

Edited by J311yfish, 21 May 2018 - 10:35 AM.

[J311yfish]

jack_wdw, on 12 May 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

Is there any other Tier II light fighter with a 20mm +2x7.7mm configuration?

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.225 (1931) single-seater, as MS.227 (1933), appears to be the best example thus far.  Both of us have considered the MS.225 to be tier II.

 

Another example for context is the Mureaux 170 (11/1932) single-seater developed into Mureaux 180 (02/1935) two-seater, modified 04/1935 to have the 12xcrs and 20mm, but considered to be obsolete by 04/1936.

 

An article here (Flight 11/07/1935, 5 pages) does a good job covering the rapid changes in fighter design spanning what is here considered to be tier II-III; many of these aircraft are already in-game.

 

Another article here covers the cannon vs. machinegun debate, though somewhat after the fact (Flight 12/17/1936); Mureaux 190, Hispano Suiza 12X, 12Y, Dewoitine D.373, Dewoitine D.510, Potez 63, Amiot 144 all mentioned.

 

-- Dewoitine D.372 and Loire 46 C1 both have wing-mounted cannons at a time when armament was on the increase; article here (Flight 01/24/1935 p.88) describes them (among others) as a response to the British F.7/30 interceptor competition in which a move was made to 4 guns.  We do have an F.7/30 aircraft in-game -- the Bristol 133 (07/1934) at tier III, the Supermarine Type 224 (02/1934) at tier III and the Gloster Gladiator (09/1934) likewise anticipated at tier III.

Edited by J311yfish, 12 May 2018 - 10:08 PM.

[J311yfish]

Single-seat fighter ("C1") contests by year

 

Below is a list of single-seat fighter contests by year. It is not 100% complete yet but can be built upon.  The problem is that bits and pieces are scattered across individual aircraft histories, rather than compiled in one cohesive narrative.  Anyway, it is useful because it provides context that can be useful in prioritizing aircraft per tier.  The Ni-D.62/622/629 is an excellent choice for tier 1, for example, based on competition outcomes and orders placed. 

 

All information from The Complete Book of Fighters (Salamander 2001), by William Green and Gordon Swanborough, unless otherwise specified.

 

---

 

1923 C1 program -- programme chasseur monoplace -- evaluation held 1925-1926

Ni-D.42 -- 1st place

Ni-D.44

Ni.D-46

Gourdou-Lesseurre 32 -- 2nd place

Dewoitine D.9 (06/1924) -- 6th place

Dewoitine D.12 (06/1924) -- 3rd place; second prototype becomes D.21, exported

Dewoitine D.19 (summer 1925) -- sold to Switzlerland, Belgium

Dewoitine D.15 -- not submitted

 

---

 

1926 chasseurs legers (light fighters), a.k.a. Jocky program

Requirements:

-- moderate power
-- minimal equipment
-- 2x7.7mm Vickers with 300 rounds each
-- emphasis on climb rate
-- endurance of 1.5 hours at full throttle
-- ceiling 8000m

Contenders:

Ni-D.48 (11/1926; official trials 05/19270-8/1927; by this time Ni-D.62 already in production

Ni-D.52 (end 1927) -- to Spain

Ni-D.62 (01/1928) -- ordered -- refined 1930 and ordered again as Ni-D.622 (09/1930); deliveries continued into late 1933; late 50 completed as Ni-D.629 (trial late 1933; acceptance 05/1935)

MS.121 (1927) -- discarded in favor of MS.221

MS.221 (1928), MS.222, MS.223 (1930) -- Jockey concept deemed failure --> developed further MS.224 (1931), MS.225 adopted as interim fighter pending 1931 C1 program

Wib 13 (130) Trombe (Whirlwind) (1928) -- extremely robust, excellent agility, but insufficient power, further development as Wib 160 Trombe II and Wib 170 Tornade

Wib 170 Tornade (Tornado) (early 1929) -- excellent performance, but Jockey program pronounced failure

 

---

 

1928 C1 program

Wibault Wib 210 (04/1929) -- cantilever low-wing; abandoned due to vibration at 350 km/h

Dewoitine D.53/530 (03/1931) -- may have been a contender, verify

Ni-D.82 (10/.1931) -- may have been a contender, verify

 

---

 

1930 C1 program contenders -- "10 designs awarded prototype contracts" (Green, 417); "27 submissions, from which 11 basic designs selected for prototype development" (Green, 442)

 

-- LOW WING:

Dewoitine D.500 (06/18/1932) --> 60 ordered 11/1933 (15 Dewoitine, 45 LeO; 5 by LeO to permit H-S S7); the 15 Dewoitin 500s instead became 8xD500, 5xD501, 2xD.510

Wibault-Penhoet 313 (11/1932) -- the only contender to deviate from H-S 12Xbrs, instead choosing Gnome-Rhone 9Kbrs 520hp; the last Wibault fighter; variable-pitch propeller (innovative at the time)

MS.325 (early 1933)

Hanriot H.110 (Moulin, 7)

Bernard 260 (Moulin, 7)

 

-- PARASOL:

D.370 (10/1931) -- private venture, D.371 (02/1934) ordered by Armee de l'Air and D.373/376 for Aeronautique Navale; all delivered by 12/1935.

D.570 (11/1933)

Ni-D.121 (11/25/1932; official tests 05/01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production
Ni-D.122 (07/23/1932; official tests 09/28/1932; lost 04/13/1933; 2nd prototype 07/13/1933; official tests 01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production

MS.275 (1934)

 

-- GULL WING: -- "gull wing condemned by pilots" -- Pulawski wing pioneered in Poland

Loire 43 (09/1934) Loire 45 (02/1933), Loire 46 (09/1934; re-engined 02/1935; order for 5+60 to Armee de l'Air; last delivered 07/1937 obsolescent.

Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) --> developed further as 2-seat Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935)

Gourdou-Lesseurre 482 (02/1933) -- last G-L fighter to be built; "1 of 5 gull-wing fighters for contest" (Green, 256)

Dewoitine D.560 (10/05/1932) --> rebuilt as D.570 (11/1933) parasol

 

-- BIPLANE:

Bleriot-Spad S.510 (Moulin, 7)

 

1931 C1 program (01/26/1931) contenders: "9 competing aircraft" (Green, 61-62)

Dewoitine D.500 (06/1932) --> winner

Bernard 260 (09/1932) --> 261 retractable undercarriage incomplete; 262 carrier-borne unbuilt

 

---

1934 -- "Aviation Militaire" becomes "Armee de l'Air"

 

1934 C1 program (07/13/1934) contenders -- 9 proposals -- to replace D.500, LN.46, D.371 (Botquin, 3)

Requirements:
-- 450 km/h (279.6 mph) max speed
-- 2.5 hr duration at 320 km/h (198.8 mph)
-- climb to 4000m (13,123.4 ft) in less than 6 minutes
-- service ceiling of 11,500m (37,729.7 ft)
-- armament either [1x20mm HS-404 + 2x7.5mm MAC 1934] or [4x7.5mm] or [2x20mm]
2 Categories:
-- Standard fighter -- Hispano-Suiza or Gnome-Rhone 800-1000hp engine
-- Light Fighter -- Potez or Salmson 400-500hp engine
 

STANDARD:

Dewoitine D.513  ...    482.8 km/h …

Morane-Saulnier MS.405 Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 900hp 443 km/h @4000m 1x20mm H-S S9 + 2x7.7mm (W)** -- winner as of 07/1937 (Botquin, 3)

LN 160/161  Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs 690hp 480 km/h @4000m 1x20mm + 2x7.5mm (W)    --> CAO 200

Bloch 150  Gnome-Rhone 14Kfs 930hp @4350m ...  2x20mm H-S 404 (W)    --> Bloch 151/152 etc

Loire 250  Hispano-Suiza 14Ha 980hp  482.8 km/h 2x20mm (W) + 2x7.5mm (W)

Bleriot-SPAD S.710 Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp 470 km/h  1x20mm + 4x7.5mm (W) + 1x7.5mm aft-firing; FF 04/1937; crashed 06/18/1937, development abandoned. (Green, 68)

 

LIGHT:
Arsenal VG-30  Potez 12 Dc 610hp@1000m  ...  1x20mm + 2x7.5mm MAC (proposed)   --> VG-33 etc.
ANF-Les Mureaux 190 Salmson 12Vars 450hp   500 km/h 1x20mm + 2x7.5mm    --> Potez 230
Caudron-Renault CR.710 Renault 12R 01 450hp  ...  2x20mm   --> C.714

 

---

1936 C1 program (06/15/1936)

-- 500 km/h (310.7mph) max speed
-- climb to 8000m (26,246.7 ft) in less than 15 minutes

amdendment to specification (09/__/1936)
-- 520 km/h (310.7 mph) max speed

 

---

1937 C1 program (01/12/1937) -- 2 categories:

 

STANDARD:
 Dewoitine D.520  (FF 10/1938)  --> 200 ordered 03/14/1939; further order 07/11/1939
 Bloch 151/152 (08/1938, 12/1938)
 Loire-Nieuport 60 (CAO 200) (01/1939)
 Morane-Saulnier MS.450 (FF 04/1939)
 Arsenal VG 33 (FF 05/1939)
 

LIGHT:
Caudron CR.714 (07/1938)

 

---

Plan II for air force expansion (10/26/1936) -- achieve double strength by end of 1939

Plan III (1936) cancelled due to procurement difficulties late 1936

Plan IV (1937) cancelled due to procurement difficulties early 1937

As of (01/1938), 793 fighters on strength, of which 54 are Dewoitine D.510 (the most advanced)

Plan V hastily approved (03/15/1938); 3-stage plan to increase total number of aircraft to 2617, including 1081 fighters, over 3 years.

 

Edited by J311yfish, 11 October 2018 - 12:46 PM.

[J311yfish]

Tier I alternates

 

Nieuport-Delage 72 (01/1928)

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Hb 500hp

2x7.7mm

Data: Green, 440

 

-- ordered by Belgium; first Belgian aircraft flown [10/24/1929] from Villacoublay to Diest (set a speed record in the process); also ordered for Brazil entering service 1931. (Green, 440)

-- max speed 268 km/h @ 4000m; max climb 9.5m/s; range 600km; empty 1210kg; loaded 1600kg; more (Green, 440)

 

 

Amiot-SECM 110 (06/1928) -- M.Dutartre -- 

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Mb 500hp -- 296 km/h

2x Vickers

Data: Green, 18

 

-- "Flown for the first time in [06/1928], the Type 110 was designed by M Dutartre as a contender in the so-called 'Jockey' lightweight interceptor contest in which it competed against 9 other types. 2 prototypes were built, these being of all-metal construction and powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Mb 500hp] 12-cylinder liquid-cooled engine, the 1st prototype having fabric and the 2nd metal wing skinning. Basically a parasol monoplane, the Type 110 was fitted with a jettisonable aerofoil-section fuel tank inserted in the fuselage aft of the main undercarriage members in the form of stub wings. Armament comprised of [2x Vickers]. On [07/01/1929], the 1st prototype was destroyed in an accident and no further development was undertaken." (Green, 18)

-- Empty: 2469lb (1120kg); Loaded: 3307lb (1500kg). (Green, 18)

 

 

 

Dewoitine D.27 (06/1928) -- Fighter -- Émile Dewoitine -- 66 for Switzerland; 4 for France -- development continued as D.53

 

-- "The Dewoitine Pursuit plane D.27, the latest addition to this well-known make, constructed entirely of duralumin.  This machine was flown by Doret ... who performed some especially well executed maneuvers.  It has a speed of 182 mph and handles very easily.  It is equipped with a [Hispano-Suiza 500hp]." (Flight Magazine 06/20/1930 p.650)

-- side view with stork emblem

-- "... the second-generation D.27 arrived in 1927 and was selected by Yugoslavia, Switzerland, and France, which also bought the D.53 derivative." (Boyne, 175)

-- "By 1926, worried that fighters were becoming too heavy, too slow and too expensive, the French instituted a lightweight fighter competition from which emerged 2 parasol monoplanes and 2 low-wing monoplanes.  One of the latter, the Bernard 20, had a maximum speed of 320 km/h (199mph). While the program was eventually deemed a failure, another of the contenders, the Dewoitine D.27, was built in Switzerland and went into service with the Swiss Air Force in 1931.  With a maximum speed of 310 km/h (193 mph) it was, for about a year, the fastest fighter in service anywhere." (Jarrett, 59)

 

-- "The design that took Émile Dewoitine's parasol fighter formula to the apex of its development was the D.27, which was evolved to meet the requirements of the STAé 1926 C1 léger program for lightweight fighters.  Adhering closely to the structural concept of preceding fighters, but embodying much aerodynamic refinement and a split-axle (with independently articulated wheels) rather than cross-axle undercarriage, the D.27 was powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Mb (HS 57) 500hp] 12-cylinder Vee engine and had an armament of [2x7.7mm (S)]. The liquidation of the Construction Aéronautique E Dewoitine in [01/1927] resulted in the transfer of development of the D.27 to the EKW in Switzerland, where a prototype flew on [06/03/1928]. By the end of the year, 3 had been ordered by Romania, 1 by Argentina, and 3 by Yugoslavia (of which 2 were to be delivered as assemblies for completion by Zmaj at Zemun), and the prototype was undergoing evaluation by the Swiss Fliegertruppe in competition with Alfred Comte's AC-1.  In the autumn of 1928, the EKW initiated a pre-series of 12 D.27 fighters, these adopting a redesigned tail and a revised wing of 4.84 sq ft (0.45 m²) less area, modifications first tested in Laboratoire Eiffel wind tunnel.  Meanwhile, in [03/1928], Émile Dewoitine had re-established himself in France, forming the Société Aéronautique Française-Avions Dewoitine. The 2nd and 3rd pre-series D.27s were delivered to France in [04/1929], the former being re-engined with [Hispano-Suiza 12Jb 400hp] as the D.272 for aerobatic demonstrations, and the latter undergoing STAé evaluation at Villacoublay from [05/28/1929] equipped with [2x7.7mm Darne]. On [11/29/1929], a contract was issued by France's DGT (Direction Générale Technique) of the Ministère de l'Air for the 2nd and 3rd pre-series aircraft plus 3 (later increased to 4) additional fighters to be assembled by Lioré-et-Oliver. The D.27 was offered to the Forces Aériennes Terrestres as the D.271 with the [Hispano-Suiza 12Hb 500hp] and as the D.273 with [Gnome-Rhone Jupiter VII] with a compressor enabling 425hp to be delivered at 13,125 ft (4,000m), but neither model was adopted.  At the end of 1929, however, the decision was taken in principle to re-equip the fighter element of the Swiss Fliegertruppe with the D.27, a pre-series of 5 being ordered from the EKW as D.27 III's, with deliveries commencing in 1931.  A pre-production batch of 15 followed, additional contracts being placed for 45 D.27 III's to bring deliveries to the Fliegertruppe to 66 (including the prototype). These remained first-line fighter equipment until 1940, when they were relegated to tuitional tasks, being finally scrapped in 1944." (Green, 177)

-- "The following data relate to the Swiss D.27 III: Max speed 298 km/h @ SL; 280 km/h @ 5000m; max climb 10m/s; range 425 km; empty 1038 kg; loaded 1415kg; span 10.30m; length 6.56m; height 2.78m; wing area 17.55m². (Green, 177)

-- see development continuation in France as D.53

 

 

Wibault 130 Trombe (Whirlwind) (__/1928) -- 

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Jb 400hp -- 242 k m/h @ SL; 253 km/h @ 3000m

2x7.7mm Vickers

Data: Green, 597

 

-- "In response to the STAé attempt, in 1926, to arrest the escalating cost of fighter weights and costs by calling for lightweight fighters, or chasseurs légers, under the so-called Jockey program, Avions Marcel Wibault proffered the Wib 13 C1. Of light allow construction throughout, with the usual Wibault corrugated sheet skinning, the Wib 13 was dubbed Trombe (Whirlwind) and was powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Jb 400hp]. Initially fitted with a cantilever tailplane, which was lowered and braced early in the flight test program, the trombe carried an armament of [2x7.7mm Vickers (S)]. Redesignated Wib 130 by the time it entered flight test at Villacoublay in 1928, the Trombe was an extremely robust aircraft and possessed excellent agility, but was adjudged to possess insufficient power, leading to further development as the Wib 170 Tornade …" (Green, 597)

-- Max speed 242 k m/h @ SL; 253 km/h @ 3000m; 5.95min to 3000m; endurance 3.0 hrs; empty 894kg; loaded 1236kg; span 9.07m; length 6.82m; height 2.77m; wing area 17.00². (Green, 597)

 

 

Wibault 160 Trombe II (__/1928) -- development continued from Wib 130 Trombe

 

-- see Wib 170

 

 

Wibault 170 Tornade (Tornado) (__/1929) -- 2 built -- development continued from Wib 130 Trombe, Wib 160 Trombe II

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Hb 500hp -- 272 km/h @ SL; 275  km/h @ 5000m

2x7.7mm (S)

Data: Green , 597

 

-- "After proposing a more powerful Wib 130 as the Wib 160 Trombe II, Avions Marcel Wibault produced a further chasseur léger to participate in the so-called Jockey program, the Wib 170 Tornade (Tornado). The Tornade was fundamentally similar to the earlier Trombe, but was powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Hb 500hp] and fuel capacity was increased from 48 to 66 Imp gal (220 to 300 L). Armament remained [2x7.7mm (S)], and the wing and tail surfaces were common to Trombe and Tornade. The 1st of 2 prototypes of the Wib 170 Tornade was displayed statically at the 1928 Salon de l'Aeronautique in Paris, and entered flight test early 1929. Although it overcame the climb and speed shortcomings of the Wib 130, and demonstrated an excellent performance during Villacoublay trials, the entire Jockey program had meanwhile been pronounced a failure." (Green, 597)

-- "Max speed 272 km/h @ SL; 275 km/h @ 5000m; 9.15min to 5000m; ceiling 9600m; empty 965kg; loaded 1350kg; dimensions as for Wib 130 apart from length of 7.15m." (Green, 597)

-- "... the Wib. 170, is a [single-seat fighter] similar [to Wib. 121 two-seat fighter] in a general way, but with the sides of its fuselage slightly curved." (Flight Magazine 07/05/1928 p.573)

 

 

Bernard 20 (07/1929) -- Louis Béchereau -- low-wing monoplane; racing heritage; resemblance to Bernard 70-series, Dewoitine D.500/501/510

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Jb 400hp -- 320 km/h @ 4000m

2x7.7mm Vickers

Data: Green, 61

 

-- all-wood construction (Flight Magazine 07/05/1928 p.572)

-- "Following the termination of the activities of S.I.M.B., a new company, the Société des Avions Bernard, was established in 1927, and immediately initiated work on a single-seat lightweight fighter of wooden construction and designed by Louis Béchereau. Intended to meet the requirements of an official specification, referred to unofficially as the Jockey program, the Bernard 20 was of wooden construction and of exceptionally clean aerodynamic form. An unusual feature of the design was the construction of the fuselage between firewall and cockpit and the one-piece wing as a single structure. Power was provided by [Hispano-Suiza 12Jb 400hp] 12-cylinder water-cooled Vee engine and armament [2x7.7mm Vickers] … flown for the first time in [spring 1929], but, in the event, the Jockey program was cancelled and none of the competing designs was ordered into production." (Green, 61)

-- max speed 320km/h @ 4000m; ceiling 6000m; empty 1023kg; loaded 1370kg; (more). (Green, 61)

 

-- "Avec le Bernard 20 C1, la firme reprenait la formule du monoplane à aile basse. Il répondait à un programme élaboré en 1926 par la XII^e Direction conernant des monoplaces de chasse dits << jockey >>. Si la vitesse demandée par rapport aux << C1 normaux >> plus lourds, était pratiquement la même, l'autonomie, le plafond et principalement l'armement (deux mitrailleuses seulement) étaient diminués. // Sur la douzaine d'avions proposes, le meilleur fut certainement le monoplace Bernard qui volait à 328 km/h, mais qui ne fut pas retenu par les services officiels à cause de sa << trop grande vitesse d'atterrissage >> qui atteignait 110 km/h! // L'avion avait été conçu sous la direction de Louis Béchereau, successeur de Jean Hubert. Une maquette grandeur de l'avion, utilisant des éléments de la cellule d'essais statiques fut exposée en juin 1928 au Salon de l'Aviation … à côté du monoplane commercial 190 T N^o 104. // Dérivée de celle du V-2 de vitesse, la voilure, d'une seule pièce, renflée en son milieu, formait par un tunnel la partie centrale du fuselage (Brevet 669 379 du 8-2-29). Elle était traverse par quatre tubes d'acier aux extrémités desquels étaient boulonnés, à l'avant le bâti-moteur en dural suportant l'Hispano-Suiza en V de 400 ch et, à l'arrière, le fuselage-coque. Le revêtement, travaillant, était en contreplaqué, comme celui du fuselage et des empennages. // Le siege du pilote était réglable en hauteur et un appui-tête resistant permettait la protection du pilote en cas d'atterrissage manqué avec passage sur le dos. L'atterrisseur à essieu et formé de deux panneaux de bois compose, comprenait des amortisseurs Béchereau associés avec des anneaux de sandows, l'ensemble loge à l'intérieur des panneaux. // Assemblé à Orly en mai 1929, l'avion commença ses essais en vol fin juillet aux mains d'Antoine Paillard pour être présenté ensuite au STIAé. Au cours d'un vol (officieux) en décembre, une vitesse de 318 km/h fut obtenue. // Tous essais officiels achevés en octobre 1930, l'appareil, conduit par Baptiste, ne volera plu beaucoup et sera remise dans un hangar des Services Techniques, le programme des << jockeys >> n'ayant eu aucune suite et le Bernard en particulier, éliminé pour vitesse < excessive >> à l'atterrissage, comme indiqué précédemment."  (Docava #31, 181-187)

 

-- "Le Bernard 20 reprit du service en 1932 lorsque le pilote d'état Jacques Lecarme le découvrit à Villacoublay dans le hangar << Guynemer >>, parmi les avions << tous usages >>, mais non usages, utilizes par la Section de Servitude. // Jacques Lecarme et le lieutenant Fernand Collin, également ingénieur-pilote, allaient l'utiliser afin d'étudier et de comprendre ce que pouvait être la voltage sur un avion fin (coefficient 13,5), démuni de toute excroissance parasite. // Devant évoluer hors des limites du terrain, l'avion reçut une immatriculation << bidon >>, en l'occurrence celle déjà donnée à l'ex-Bernard 74-01, F-AKDB. Le 20, ayant conserve sa peinture bleu clair, permit d'apercevoir des vérités jusqu'alors méconnues ou jugées irréfragables par les augures en ce qui concernait la manoeuvrabilité ainsi que la stabilité pour des exercices de haute École sur avion monoplane et fin." (Docavia #31, 187)

-- "Au printemps de 1933 l'appareil subit une cure de jouvence : train sans essieu, derive vertical agrandie et pare-brise plus enveloppant. De plus, le radiateur d'origine, usé, fut remplacé par un de marque Chausson place dans un carénage profile. Malheureusement, en mars 1934, le moteur Hispano, excellent mais fragile, fut << out >> et l'avion dut être réformé, sans appel." (Docavia #31, 187)

-- "En 1929, un nouveau programme de monoplaces de chasse ultra-lé-gers fut élaboré par le 2^e Bureau l'Inspection Générale de l'Aéronautique et émis, comme suite à la demande de l'État-Major aérien, par la Direction Générale des Services Techniques de l'Air. Il était demandé à ces appareils, d'une puissance oscillant entre 230 et 320 ch, de voler à 300 km/h à l'altitude de rétablissement, avec un plafond de 10,000 mètres. L'armement était toujours fixé à deux mitrailleuses. De plus, l'avion devait être entièrement métalique et son atterrisseur recevoir des amortisseurs oleo-pneumatiques et des freins différenciels. Cinq projets furent soumis à CEPANA.  Cette commission ne retint que le Bernard 70, pour deux prototypes …" (Docavia #31, 187)

 

 

Bernard 74 (02/1931, 10/1931) -- 2 built -- low-wing monoplane; racing heritage; resemblance to later Bernard 260, Dewoitine D.500/501/510

 

74-01 -- Gnome-Rhone 7Kd 360hp -- 310 km/h

74-02 -- Gnome-Rhone 7kd 360hp -- 350 km/h @ 4000m

75 proposed production

2x7.7mm Vickers (S)

Data: Green, 61

 

placeholder

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Bernard_70

http://forum.worldof...969-bernard-74/

 

-- "A lightweight fighter derivative of the Bernard 72 and 73 single-seat racing monoplanes, which, in turn, had been evolved from the Bernard 70 lightweight fighter project, the Bernard 74 was of wooden stressed-skin construction and employed structural principles similar to those of the earlier Bernard 20. Armament comprised [2x7.7mm Vickers (S)] and power was provided by [Gnome-Rhone 7Kbs 280hp] 7-cylinder radial engine. The first of 2 prototypes was flown in [02/1931], being joined by the 2nd prototype on [10/21/1931], the latter having [Gnome-Rhone 7Kd 360hp] which increased its maximum speed to [350 km/h @ 4000m], loaded weight being raised to [1240kg]. The proposed production version, designated Bernard 75, was similar to the 2nd prototype." (Green, 61)

-- "The following details relate to the [first prototype with G-R 7Kbs]: max speed 310 km/h; ceiling 8000m; empty 825kg; loaded 1106kg; (more). (Green, 61)

 

 

Dewoitine D.53 (03/1931) -- Fighter -- Émile Dewoitine -- ~7 built -- development continued from D.27

 

 -- "Following the loss, at the end of [07/1930], of the first pre-series D.27 as a result of a wing structural failure, a substantially reinforced wing structure was designed to meet new requirements imposed by France's Service Technique. Émile Dewoitine had, at this time, been assured by the Ministère de l'Air of an order for 90 D.27 fighters with reinforced wings, although this was not, in the event, to be confirmed.  The structural changes were accompanied by a change in designation from D.27 to D.53, the first reinforced wing being completed on [02/27/1931] and this being applied by Lioré-et-Olivier to D.27 No.14 to produce the D.530 which flew at the end of the following month. The D.530 was powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Md], a lightened version of the [Hispano-Suiza 12Mb (HS 57) 500hp]. The HS 12Md was not acceptable to the STAé, the 2nd, 3rd and 5th D.53 series fighters therefore being fitted with the standard HS 12Mb as D.531's for official evaluation.  Weighing 3,130 lb (1,420kg), these recorded maximum speeds of [269 km/h @SL] and [258 km/h @ 5000m] during trials at Villacoublay." (Green, 177-178)

-- "In [08/1931] the Turkish government expressed interest in the D.53 and was offered versions with either the compressor-equipped [Skoda Lr 580hp] or [Curtiss V-1570 Conqueror 600hp]. The 4th D.53 series fighter prototype flown in the autumn of 1931 was the D.532 with a compress-equipped [Rolls-Royce Kestrel]. This attained [313 km/h @ 4000m], climbing to that altitude in 6.9min, but excessive oscillation of the tail led to discontinuation of flight testing and re-engining with [Hispano-Suiza 12Mb] as the D.534 LP. Flown in [04/1932], the D.535 was equipped with a [Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 500hp], this becoming the D.536 when fitted with a Farman compressor which raised the output of the HS 12Xbrs engine to 570hp @ 5800m." (Green, 177-178)

-- "In [07/1933], a twin-float fighter version of D.535 was offered to Peru, which, in the event, procured Nieuport-Delage 123s." (Green, 178)

-- "Only 7 D.53 series aircraft were flown of which 2 D.531's allegedly found their way to Republican Spain during the Civil War, becoming known as Dewoitinillos or Dewoitine pequeños (little Dewoitines) to distinguish them from D.371's … The dimensions of the D.53 series were similar to those of the D.27 [see D.27 data above]." (Green, 178)

 

 

 

Nieuport-Delage 82 (10/1931) -- ~1 built -- eclipsed by Ni-D.120 series

 

-- "Displayed, prior to completion [at the Paris Salon] … during [11/1930-12/1930], and flown for the first time in [10/1931], the Ni-D.82 resembled preceding Nieuport-Delage fighters configurationally, but differed in virtually all other respects. Between its appearance [at the Paris Salon] and the initiation of flight testing, the sesquiplane configuration was discarded in favor of that of parasol monoplane, and the height of the cabane was increased. Of all-metal construction, the Ni-D.82 featured an entirely new wing of rectangular planform, a semi-monocoque metal fuselage of revised form (by comparison with that of the Ni-D.52), new, more angular tail surfaces and [Lorraine 12Ha Pétrel 500hp] 12-cylinder Vee-type water-cooled engine. Intended armament remained [2x7.7mm (S)]. By the time that the Ni-D.82 prototype commenced flight test, the Ni-D.120 series of fighters was already on the drawing boards, and considered conceptually passé, the Ni-D.82 was discontinued." (Green, 440-441)

 

 

 

 

Potez 25 TOE (__/1925) -- reconnaissance-bomber/army co-operation -- Louis Coroller -- 3,500+ built

 

Lorraine-Dietrich 12Eb 450hp -- 170 km/h @ 5000m -- 208 km/h @ SL

1x7.5mm MAC or Vickers fixed-forward

2x7.5mm flex rear -- or 2x7.7mm Vickers​ -- on a TO 7 ring

bombs: up to 200kg

crew: 2

Data: Weal, 97 / Winchester, 217

 

-- Total production = 3,500+. (Weal, 97)

-- "First flown 1925, Potez 25 subsequently produced in multiplicity of versions; widely exported (supplied approx. 20 foreign AFs), also extensive FAF service in variety reconnaissance, army cooperation, training and ancillary roles both at home and overseas; equipped single army reconnaissance Group, plus number of observation Groups upon outbreak WWII, disappearing from all but 4 of latter (3 based metropolitan France, 1 North Africa) by time of German invasion [05/10/1940]; individual examples continued perform second-line duties with overseas FFAF/FVAF units, including North Africa and Middle and Far East (1 of latter reportedly captured/used by IJAAF in Indo-China as late as 1945)." (Weal, 97)

-- "Apart from Potez, ANF Les Mureaux and Hanriot built 25s in France." (Winchester, 216)

-- "Designed by Louis Coroller, the Potez 25 was derived from the Potez 24 A.2-category fighter aircraft." (Winchester, 217)

Potez 25

-- "Prototype and production models; 87 individual variants, civil and military; various 450/500hp power plant (including Gnome-Rhone, Hispano-Suiza, Lorraine, Renault) and/or armament/equipment modifications." (Weal, 97)

Potez 25 A.2

-- reconnaissance (Winchester, 217)

Potez 25 B.2

-- bomber (Winchester, 217)

-- 12x12kg or 4x50kg under fuselage, plus 6x12kg under wings. (Winchester, 217)

Potez 25-O

-- long-range variant (Winchester, 217)

Potez 25H

-- floatplane variant (Winchester, 217)

Potez 25 TOE

-- "... 2,270 examples of this general-purpose variant built.  They were designed for colonial use but many saw home service ..." (Winchester, 217)

-- Winchester compares the Potez 25 TOE to the Westland Wapiti and Fairey Firefly IIIF Mk.IV. (Winchester, 217)

 

 

 

Levasseur P.L.7 Series 2 (__/1926) -- long-range carrier-borne torpedo-bomber -- 41 built

Hispano-Suiza 12 Lbr 600hp -- 170 km/h @ SL

Crew: 3

Data: Weal, 94

 

-- Total production = 41. (Weal, 94)

-- "First flown 1926, still in service 1 Escadrille FNAF upon outbreak WWII." (Weal, 94)

-- "The machine exhibited [1928] carries the somewhat mystic letters P.L.7 TBb … the power plant is a geared Renault of 550hp.  The machine is designed for use on the aircraft carrier Béarn." (Flight 07/05/1928 p.573)

P.L.7.01/02

-- "Prototypes; 3-seat long-range torpedo-bomber biplane; alternative wheel- or float-undercarriage; folding upper wing; P.L.7.02 with reduced wing span (2)." (Weal, 94)

P.L.7 series 1

-- "Production model; as P.L.7.01 (9)." (Weal, 94)

P.L.7 series 2

-- "Production model; as P,L.7.02 (30)." (Weal, 94)

 

 

 

 

 

Levasseur P.L.101 (__/1929) -- carrier-borne reconnaissance -- 60 built

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Lb 600hp -- 220 km/h @ SL

2xLewis flexible in center cockpit

provision for bomb/s or 1 torpedo

crew: 3

Data: Weal, 94

 

-- Total production = 60. (Weal, 94)

-- "P.L.10 first flown 1929; improved P.L.101 still operated by 1 FNAF Escadrille [09/1939].

P.L.10

-- "Initial production model; reconnaissance biplane (30)." (Weal, 94)

P.L.101

-- "Modified P.L.10; redesigned widetrack undercarriage (30)." (Weal, 94)

 

 

 

Levasseur P.L.14 (__/1929) -- torpedo-bomber/reconnaissance floatplane -- 30 built

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Nb 650hp -- 165 km/h @ SL

Crew: 2

Data: Weal, 94

 

-- "Total production = 30. (Weal, 94)

-- "First flown 1929, several examples (since converted to landplane configuration) still in FNAF service (in support role) [09/1939]." (Weal, 94)

P.L.14 prototypes

-- "2-seat torpedo-bomber/reconnaissance floatplane (2)." (Weal, 94)

P.L.14 production model

-- "As prototypes; various power plants; a number subsequently converted as landplanes (28)." (Weal, 94)

 

 

Breguet Bre 270 (__/192_) -- observation -- 176 built

 

 

-- Total production = 176. (Weal, 88)

-- "First flown late 1920s, Bre 270 observation sesquiplane still equipped 3 GAOS (Groupes Aé​riens d'Observation) upon outbreak of WWII; suffered heavy losses over Western Front/Rhineland before withdrawal from service Winter 1939-1940." (Weal, 88)

Bre 270

-- "Prototypes and initial production model; 2-seat general-purpose/reconnaissance version (inc 10 export models) (100)." (Weal, 88)

Bre 271

-- "Modified Bre 270; various power plants (inc prototypes) (50)." (Weal, 88)

Bre 272

-- "Prototype; modified Bre 270 (1)." (Weal, 88)

Bre 273

-- "Prototype and production models; long-range reconnaissance/bomber version; [Hispano-Suiza 12Nb 650hp] or [Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs supercharged]; production model for export only (22)." (Weal, 88)

Bre 274

-- "Prototype; re-engine Bre 273; [Gnome-Rhone 14 Krsd 700hp supercharged] (1)." (Weal, 88)

Bre 330 R2

-- "Prototypes; re-engine Bre 270; [Hispano-Suiza 12Nb 650hp] (2)." (Weal, 88)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 24 May 2018 - 11:44 AM.

[J311yfish]

Tier II alternates

 

Bernard 260 (09/1932) -- fighter prototype; 2 underwing cannons (verify); lost to D.500

 

II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp -- 315 km/h @ SL -- 360 km/h @ 5000m

II  2x7.7mm Vickers

Data: Green, 61-62

 

-- "The Benard 260 was designed to meet the … 1931 competitive specification for a single-seat fighter in the 3,748-3,968 lb (1700-1800kg) weight category with a max speed ranging from [300 km/h @ SL] to [350 km/h @ 5000m]. It was the only one of 9 competing aircraft to feature high-lift devices in the form of leading-edge slats and trailing-edge flaps.  Of all-metal construction with an armament of [2x7.7mm Vickers] beneath the wings and powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp] 12-cylinder water-cooled engine … flown for the first time in [09/1932]. Initially tested with a fixed radiator bath beneath the nose and subsequently with twin radiators attached to the undercarriage legs, and finally with a Chausson frontal radiator … underwent numerous modifications during its test program. However, no production was undertaken, [D.500] being selected as winning contender." (Green, 61-62)

-- Max speed 315 km/h @ SL; 360 km/h @ 5000m; 30min to 10,000m; empty 1357kg; loaded 1800kg; (more). (Green, 62)

 

H.52

-- "The H.52 (the prefix indicating Hydravion) resulted from a proposal to the Marine Nationale late in 1932 that a single-seat float fighter be built which could utilize the wing, rear fuselage and tail surfaces of the Bernard 260.  Of all-metal construction … mid-wing cantilever monoplane powered by [Gnome-Rhone 9Kdrs 500hp] and armed with [2x7.5mm Darne] beneath the wings. Construction followed the practice adopted by previous Bechereau-designed Bernard fighters in that the center fuselage between the firewall and cockpit was built integral with the wing, and Handley Page slots occupied most of the wing leading edge. The first prototype was flown [06/16/1933], and was tested with 2-, 3- and 4-bladed propellers.  A 2nd prototype joined the test program in 1934, but no production order was placed." (Green, 62)

-- Max speed 285 km/h @ SL; 328 km/h @ 4000m; 9min to 4000m; normal range 600km; empty 1480kg; loaded 1888kg; (more). (Green, 62)

 

H.110

-- "In the autumn of 1934, after abandoning further work on the H.52, Avions Bernard initiated development of a new single-seat fighter, the H.110, which was to be evaluated in competition with the Loire 210 and the Romano 90.  Powered by [Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs 710hp] 9-cylinder radial (license-built derivative of the Wright Cyclone), the H.110 bore a close resemblance to the earlier H.52, and employed generally similar structure and armament, but featured fabric-covered rather than metal stressed-skin wings. With the liquidation of the Bernard concern, work on the prototype was taken over by Société Schreck, flight trials being initiated in [06/1935]. In the event, the Loire 210 was selected for production to meet the float fighter requirement and development of the H.110 was abandoned." (Green, 62)

-- Max speed 330 km/h @ 2500m; loaded 1900kg; (more). (Green, 62)

 

 

Nieuport-Delage 121 (11/1932)  -- Albert Mary -- ~2 built -- eclipsed by D.500

 

-- "A new single-seat fighter requirement framed by the Service Technique in 1930 (and amended in 1931) resulted in no fewer than 27 submissions, from which 11 basic designs were eventually selected for development to prototype stage. To this requirement … evolved its Ni-D.120 series fighters under a design team by Albert Mary." (Green, 440)

-- "The Ni-D.121 was first flown on [11/25/1932] … before evaluation at the official test center [05/01/1934] … By this time, the [D.500] had been pronounced the winning contender and committed to production. The level speed and climb rates of the Ni-D.121 were commended, but landing speed was considered excessive, the undercarriage weak and the large wing surface radiator area vulnerable." (Green, 442)

-- Max speed 367 km/h @ 5000m; 7.1min to 5000m; empty 1433kg; loaded 1866kg; (more). (Green, 442)

 

 

ANF-Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) -- fighter prototype -- 2 built -- [1,670 kg] -- rejected

II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp -- 380 km/h @ 4500m

Data: Green, 19

(Image: Flight Magazine 11/24/1932)

 

 -- "Designed to meet the requirements of the 1930 single-seat fighter program which specified the use of a supercharged engine and a maximum speed of at least 217 mph (350 km/h), the Mureaux 170 was powered by a [II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp] and [2x7.7mm MAC (Vickers) (W)].  Of all-metal construction …  first flown in [11/1932], a 2nd prototype, built as a private venture, flying in [03/1934].  Several changes were made to the size and positioning of the radiator bath, and the fighter was rejected primarily because of the poor visibility from the cockpit for landing." (Green, 18-19)

 

-- "3 complete aircraft are exhibited by this firm [A.N.F. Mureaux], all of metal construction (including covering), and all high-wing monoplanes.  The 170 C.1 is a single-seater fighter, with wings having their maximum chord some little distance out, tapering to tips and root, and slightly bent as in the Polish P.Z.L. machines, but to a smaller extent. The engine is a [Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs]. Flat plate covering is used for wings and fuselage. The machine looks as if it ought to be very fast indeed, as it is carefully streamlined and has a very small wing area." (Flight Magazine 11/24/1932 p.106)

 

-- Flight Magazine 05/10/1934

 

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.325 (__/1933)

 

placeholder

https://en.wikipedia...aulnier_M.S.325

 

 

Hanriot H-110 (04/1933)

Image: Flight 11/07/1935 c

 

placeholder

https://en.wikipedia...i/Hanriot_H.110

 

 

Nieuport-Delage 125 (06/1934) --- 1 built -- 20mm provision -- eclipsed by D.510

Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp -- 400 km/h @ 4500m

1x20mm

Data: Green, 442

Image: Flight 11/07/1935 b

 

-- "... powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp] with provision for a 20mm moteur-canon, and differed in several other respects from previous Ni-D.120 series fighters. The wing leading-edge coolant pipe system was discard in favor of surface radiators comprising 3 panels of small-bore pipes attached on each side of the fuselage beneath the wing section; several degrees of dihedral were applied from the wing centerline; the wing cabane was marginally deepened and the cut-out above the cockpit was enlarged. The sole prototype of the Ni-D.125 entered flight test in [06/1934], and, on [07/16/1934], commenced official flight trials at the Centre d'Essais du Matériel Aérien. There on [(08/09/1934], it suffered minor damage during minimum approach speed trials. Testing was resumed later in the month, but despite what was by consensus an excellent performance, no further development was undertaken as the similarly-powered Dewoitine D.510 had entered flight test and offered the advantages of a high degree of commonlaity with the D.500 already in production. Furthermore, work had already begun on the very much more advanced [Nieuport 160] cantilever low-wing monoplane fighter [which becomes LN.161]." (Green, 442-443)

-- max speed 400 km/h @ 4500m; 6.0min to 5000m; empty 1461kg; loaded 1970kg; (more). (Green, 443)

 

 

 

ANF-Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935) -- 2-seat fighter prototype -- 1 built -- [1,953 kg] -- development from ANF-Mureaux 170 -- 20mm

II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp

Hispano-Suiza 12 Xcrs

1x20mm (E) + 2x7.7mm MAC + 1x7.7mm flex rear

Data: Green, 19

Image: Flight 11/07/1935 b

 

-- "Essentially a 2-seat derivative of Mureuax 170 … similar all-metal structure, but a frontal radiator was provided for the [II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp]. The sole prototype was first flown on [02/10/1935], but in [04/1935] the original single fin-and-rudder assembly was replaced by twin fins and rudders, and an [Hispano-Suiza 12 Xcrs] engine with provision for a 20mm Hispano-Suiza cannon firing through the propeller shaft was installed, engine output being unchanged. Proposed armament comprised [1x20mm (E) + 2x7.7mm MAC + 1x7.7mm flex rear].  The following figures relate to the Mureaux 180 in its final form: Max speed 379 km/h @ 5000m; climb to 6500m in 7.5min; range 750 km; empty weight 2791 lb (1266kg); loaded weight 4306 lb (1953kg); (more)." (Green, 19)

 

 

 

 

Potez 39 A2 (01/1934) -- observation -- ~250 built

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 720hp -- 286 km/h @ 5000m

2xVickers fixed-forward

2xLewis rear

1xrearward-firing machine-gun in ventral position

Data: Weal, 98

 

-- Total production = ~250. (Weal, 98)

-- "Standard mid-1930s reconnaissance/observation machine, number still employed by FAF for general-purpose duties upon outbreak of WWII." (Weal, 98)

-- "Two-seat high-wing observation monoplane; various power plants including [Hispano-Suiza 12 Ybrs 650hp]; [Hispano-Suiza 12 Xbrs]; [Lorraine 12 Hars]." (Weal, 98)

 

Potez 39/10

-- "First flown in [01/1934], the Potez 39 was a 2-seat reconnaissance aircraft intended to replace the earlier Potez 25. It was a strut-braced parasol-wing monoplane of all-metal construction with corrugated duralumin sheet covering, powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs 860hp] and other engine types. Armament consisted of 2 forward-firing machine guns, 2 guns on a ring in the rear cockpit and a 5th gun arranged to fire through an opening in the floor of the cockpit. Deliveries of the Potez 39 were made to the air forces of France and Peru. The only example built of the Potez 39/10 version (c/n 1/2343, the former Potez 39.0 prototype) was presented to a Soviet mission visiting Villacoublay in France, probably in 1934, but nothing is known about its fate." (Andersson, 307)

-- Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs -- 315 km/h; 4min climb to 3500m; range 740km; empty 1683kg; loaded 2396-2650kg; (more). (Andersson, 307)

-- image / 3-view

 

 

ANF-Mureaux 115 (03/1935) -- observation -- 297 built -- 20mm

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
2 prototypes	110/112
49 (​FF Spring 1931)	113	Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs 650brs
2	114 CN2
3 (FF 03/1935)	115 R2	Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp		1x20mm (N)
120	115 R2 B2	Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 650hp	340 km/h @ ___m	1x20mm (E)* 2x7.5mm flex rear	up to 300kg
57 ​(FF 01/1935)	117 R2	Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp
60	117 R2 B2				4x50kg
1	200 A3			2x7.5mm forward 2x7.5mm rear

*Weal claims that the 1x20mm(E) was subsequently replaced by either 1x7.5mm (W) or 2x7.5mm (F)

​Data: Weal, 97​ / unverified

 

-- Total production = 297. (Weal, 97)

-- "Mureaux 113 first flown Spring 1931, but obsolescent by [09/1939], over half having been replaced by later models; Mureaux 115/117 most modern army observation aircraft available upon outbreak WWII (first flown [03/1935] / [01/1935] respectively); equipped 19 out of 45 GAOs (army observation groups); provided Luftwaffe with first FAF 'kill' of war, one 115 being brought down on 6th day of hostilities; in process of replacement by Potez 63.11, over 100 115/117s still in service [05/10/1940]; many destroyed during ensuing Battle of France, including some reportedly employed in emergency light bomber role." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 110/112

-- "Prototypes; 2-seat reconnaissance version (6)." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 113

-- "Initial production; reconnaissance model; [Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs 650brs] (49)." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 114 CN2

-- "Night-fighter version; modified 113 (including 2 conversions) (2)." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 115 R2

-- "Reconnaissance version; [Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp]; repositioned radiator; one cannon in nose (including prototype) (3)." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 115 R2 B2

-- "Reconnaissance-bomber version of Mureaux 115 R2; revised armament (120)." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 117 R2

-- "As Mureaux 113; [Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp]; strengthened wing (57)." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 117 R2 B2

-- "Reconnaissance-bomber version; as Mureaux 117 R2; provision for [4x50kg] bombs underwing (60)." (Weal, 97)

Mureaux 200 A3

-- "3-seat assault version; 1 Mureaux 115 conversion." (Weal, 97)

 

 

-- [all of these notes are from unconfirmed internet sources but will have to do for now]

-- design by André Brunet beginning 1928, first prototype 110 flown 04/1931

-- image

 

 

Lioré​-et-Olivier LeO H-257bis (__/19__) -- torpedo-bomber floatplane -- 91 built -- entered service mid-1935

 

2xGnome-Rhone 14Knrs/ors 870hp -- 230 km/h @ 3500m

nose: 1x7.5mm Darne flex

dorsal: 1x7.5mm Darne flex

ventral: 1x7.5mm Darne flex

bombs: up to 1310kg or 1x670kg torpedo

Crew: 6

Data: Weal, 95

 

-- Total production = 91 (all marks). "Weal, 95)

-- LeO 250 series last of long line of twin-engine LeO biplane bombers dating back to LeO 7 of immediate post-WWI vintage; entered service (H-258) mid-1935; operating in both landplane/floatplane version, equipped 3 Escadrilles FNAF plus single Groupe FAF outbreak WWII; employed maritime patrol Channel, Atlantic, Mediterranean areas, as well as in day and night bombing roles during latter stages of Battle of France; subsequent limited use training and communications duties FVNAF and FF(N)AFs, latter (as landplane) until late 1944." (Weal, 95)

LeO H-254-01

​​-- "Prototype; [2xHispano-Suiza 12Mbr 500hp] (1)." (Weal, 95)

LeO H-255-01

​​​-- "Prototype; as H-254-01; [2xHispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp; alt land-/floatplane undercarriage (1)." (Weal, 95)

LeO H-256-01

-- "Prototype; modified H-254-01; [2xHispano-Suiza 12 Nbr 650hp]; increased wing area (1)." (Weal, 95)

LeO H-257-01

-- "Production prototype; as H-256-01; [2xGnome-Rhone 14Kbr 800hp]; enclosed cockpit (1)." (Weal, 95)

LeO H-257bis

-- "Production model; [2xGnome-Rhone 14Kirs/jrs 870hp supercharged]; some later re-engined [Gnome-Rhone 14Knrs/ors]; strengthened wing (60)." (Weal, 95)

LeO H-258

-- "Initial production model; [2xHispano-Suiza 12Nbr 650hp] (26)." (Weal, 95)

LeO H-259-01

-- "Prototype; alt land-/floatplane; modified rear fuselage and wing struts; [2xHispano-Suiza 12Ydrs/frs] (1)." (Weal, 95)

 

 

 

 

Latécoère Laté 29.0 (__/1931) -- torpedo-bomber floatplane -- ~35 built

Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr 650hp -- 210 km/h @ SL

1x7.7mm Vickers (fixed forward)

2x7.7mm Lewis (dorsal turret)

bombs: up to 300kg or 1xType 1926 DA torpedo

crew: 3

Data: Weal, 93

 

-- Total production = approx. 35. (Weal, 93)

-- "First flown 1931, Laté 29.0 torpedo-bomber floatplanes withdrawn from first-line service Winter 1938-1939; 4 examples returned to operations immediately prior outbreak WWII; equipped 1 naval Escadrille for Channel coastal patrol duties, [09/1939-06/1940]; dive-bombed German naval units during retreat along Channel and Atlantic seaboards, subsequently serving as emergency evacuation/transports (5 troops), before final immobilization on lake north of Bordeaux [06/25/1940]." (Weal, 93)

Laté 29.0-01/2

-- "Prototypes (2)." (Weal, 93)

Laté 29.0

​-- "Initial production model; Laté 29.3, 4, 6, experimental versions; Gnome-Rhone 14Krs 800hp, Gnome-Rhone 14Kdrs 830hp, Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 840hp respectively (total approx. 33)." (Weal, 93)

 

 

 

Levasseur P.L.15 (__/1932) -- torpedo-bomber/reconnaissance floatplane -- 17 built

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr (or NB) 650hp or Hispano-Suiza 12Lbr 600hp -- 190 km/h @ SL

1x7.7mm Vickers fixed forward

2x7.7mm Lewis flex rear

bombs: up to 500kg or 1x750kg torpedo

Crew: 2-4

Data: Weal, 94

 

-- Total production = 17. (Weal, 94)

-- "First flown 1932, P.L.15 one of oldest floatplanes to see service in WWII, 5 equipping 1 Escadrille for Mediterranean coastal patrol duties [09/1939-06/1940]; scrapped after Armistice." (Weal, 94)

P.L.15

-- "2-seat torpedo-bomber, 3-seat observation or 4-seat reconnaissance floatplane versions (16)." (Weal, 94)

P.L.151

-- "Modified P.L.15; redesigned (inverted sesquiplane) wing (1)." (Weal, 94)

P.L.154

-- "One P.L.15 conversion; wheel undercarriage." (Weal. 94)

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 27 May 2018 - 06:50 PM.

[J311yfish]

Tier III alternates

 

Nieuport-Delage 140 (03/1935) -- 2-seat carrier-borne diver bomber

Image: Flight 11/07/1935 c

 

placeholder

https://en.wikipedia...Nieuport_LN.401

 

 

Loire 210 (03/1935) -- ship-borne fighter floatplane -- 21 built -- entered service 08/1939

Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs 980hp -- 280 km/h @ SL -- 300 km/h @ 3000m

4x7.5mm Darne (W)

Data: Weal, 96

 

-- Total production = 21. (Weal, 96)

-- "Unsuccessful fighter floatplane design intended for service aboard French Navy battleships; equipped 2 shore-based Escadrilles opening weeks WWII, before high accident rate from wing failure led to premature grounding and disbandment [11/1939]." (Weal, 96)

-- "In 1933, the Marine Nationale formulated and issued a requirement for modern float-equipped fighter that could be launched from the rotatable catapults of such cruisers as the Foch and the Richelieu. Contenders were built by Loire, Bernard (H.52), Potez (452) and Romano (R-90). The Loire 210, first flown on [03/21/1935], was of all-metal construction with metal skinning apart from the outboard sections of the wings which were fabric covered. It employed a fuselage essentially similar to that of the Loire 46.  Powered by [Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs 720hp] 9-cylinder radial, the Loire 210 began official trials in [06/1938]. A production order, which called for 20 aircraft, was not placed until [03/19/1937], the first series aircraft flying on [11/18/1938]." " (Green, 353)

Loire 210

-- "Prototype; ship-borne fighter floatplane; [2x7.5mm Darne (W)] (1)." (Weal, 96)

Loire 210

-- "Production model; increased armament (20)." (Weal, 96)

-- "The production model carried an armament of [4x7.5mm Darne (W)], 2 escadrilles forming with this fighter in [08/1939]. However, after several accidents resulting from wing structural failures, the remaining aircraft were withdrawn from service and their units disbanded." (Green, 353)

-- Max speed 299 km/h @ 3000m; 5.35min to 3000m; range 750km; empty 1440kg; loaded 2180kg; span 11.79m; length 9.51m; height 3.80m; wing area 20.30m². (Green, 353)

Loire 211

-- "Re-engined Loire 210; [Gnome-Rhone 14M-2]; project only." (Weal, 96)

 

 

 

Curtiss SBC Helldiver (12/1935) -- from USA

 

placeholder

https://en.wikipedia...s_SBC_Helldiver

 

 

Vought SB2U Vindicator (01/1936) -- from USA

 

placeholder

https://en.wikipedia...SB2U_Vindicator

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 24 May 2018 - 05:58 PM.

[J311yfish]

Tier IV alternates

 

 

Curtiss Hawk 75A -- entered French service starting 03/1939-05/1939

 

-- entered French service starting 03/1939-05/1939. (Botquin, 7)

 

-- "Certainly the Hurricane and Spitfire are strong enough to meet any contingency which may arise in aerial combat. Neither can there be any doubt of the sturdiness of the Curtiss, for one of the machines for L'Armee de l'Air was dived on test at 575 mph, though one has heard that when one of these machines was dived by a French pilot at about 500 mph some small inspection doors blew off. The Morane is another sturdy design and should stand up to more or less anything." (Flight Magazine 12/14/1939 h)

 

 

Koolhoven F.K.58 (07/1938, 06/1939) -- Erich Schatzki -- 36 ordered (07/1939); 13+1 delivered -- [2,750 kg]

Image: Flight Magazine 03/30/1939 p.309

 

Gnome-Rhone 14N-39 1036hp @ 5000m -- 4x7.5mm FN-Browning Mle 38

Hispano-Suiza 15AA

Bristol Taurus III 1080hp

Data: Green, 323-324

 

- "Evolved specifically to meet a French requirement, the F.K.58 single-seat fighter, designed by Dr Erich Schatzki, was created within barely 3 months and flew for the first time on [07/17/1938].  A 2nd prototype followed, and production was launched before, in [01/1939], an order was placed by France for 50 F.K.58 fighters powered by [Gnome-Rhone 14N-39 1036hp @ 5000m] and armed with [4x7.5mm FN-Browning Mle 38].  Both the 2nd prototype and the first production fighter were completed on [01/27/1939]. These and the next 3 production examples were fitted with [Hispano-Suiza 14AA], all subsequent having the Gnome-Rhone. The F.K.58 was of standard Koolhoven construction, with plywood-covered wings and a welded steel tube fuselage with duralumin and fabric covering. Interest in the F.K.58 was meanwhile being shown by the Luchtvaart Afdeling, and Koolhoven arranged with the Belgian SABCA concern to sub-contract some of the future F.K.58 production, commencing with 10 of the French contract aircraft.  In the event, the French government was unable to furnish SABCA with the necessary engines, and the Belgian-built airframes were scrapped after the occupation of the country by the Wehrmacht. On [07/22/1939], an order was placed by the Luchtvaart Afdeling for 36 F.K.58s powered by [Bristol Taurus III 1080hp], the first Gnome-Rhone-engined production aircraft having meanwhile flown on [06/26/1939]. 13 were delivered to France before the start of [WWII], prior to which the remaining 23 aircraft also being built by the company against the French contract and in various stages of assembly were shipped to Le Havre. From there they were transported to Nevers where it was proposed that they be completed. Only one F.K.58 was in fact finished at Nevers, and those under construction for the Luchtvaart Afdeling were destroyed by bombing before completion at the Koolhoven factory." (Green, 323-324)

-- Max speed 475 km/h @ 5000m; initial climb 14 m/s; loaded 2750kg; span 10.97m; length 8.68m; wing area 17.30m². (Green, 324)

-- "The Koolhoven FK.58 monoplane fighter, described in Flight of [10/06/1938], recently reached a speed of 500 mph [804.6 km/h] during diving tests at Villacoublay." (Flight Magazine 10/20/1938 a)

-- "... the final number of Koolhoven F.K.58 single-seater fighters ordered by France is 50." (Flight Magazine 03/02/1939 p.223)

-- "Some time ago it was announced that the Dutch Army had placed an order for Koolhoven F.K.58 fighters. Apparently this order is for forty, and the machines, which will be fitted with Bristol Taurus sleeve-valve engines, will be delivered early next year. Another batch of these machines has been ordered by the French Air Force, but these are being fitted with Hispano-Suiza 14Aa radials." (Flight Magazine 08/03/1939 b)

-- "... Koolhoven F.K.58s … about 315 mph [507 km/h]." (Flight Magazine 12/14/1939 h)

 

 

 

 

more

 

Loire-Nieuport LN 401 (mid-1938) -- ship-borne dive-bomber -- ~72 built -- only 3 in service by 09/1939

Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs 690hp -- 320 km/h @ SL -- 380 km/h @ 4000m

1x20mm Hispano-Suiza (E)

2x7.5mm Darne (W)

bombs up to 225kg

Data: Weal, 96

 

-- Total production = ~72. (Weal, 96)

-- "Prototype first flown mid-1938; only 3 LN 401s in FNAF service by outbreak WWII, 2 Escadrilles converting before capitulation; operated as land-based dive-bomber during Battle of France, suffering heavy casualties (on one occasion half of 20-strong force attacking German armor failed to return, all others damaged to varying degree); subsequently relegated reconnaissance, night-attack roles on southern (Italian) front; 12 of 24 examples produced under Vichy control later seized by Germany." (Weal, 96)

LN 40 No.01

-- "Prototype; ship-borne dive-bomber version; semi-retractable undercarriage; folding-wing (1)." (Weal, 96)

LN 401

-- "Initial production model; modified wing (23+)." (Weal, 96)

LN 402

-- "As LN 401; [Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31​]; prototype only (1)." (Weal, 96)

LN 411

-- "Land-based dive-bomber version of LN 401; arrester hook, floatation bags, and wing-fold mechanism deleted (23+)." (Weal, 96)

LN 420

-- "Re-engine LN 411; [Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 1100hp]; redesigned wing; modified tail (1 conversion)." (Weal, 96)

 

 

 

Latécoère 298D (05/1936, 10/1938) -- torpedo bomber/reconnaissance floatplane -- 130+ built -- entered service end 1938

Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs1 880hp -- 290km/h @ 2000m

2x7.5mm Darne (W)

1x7.5mm Darne (rear)

bombs: up to 500kg or 1x700kg torpedo or depth-charges

Crew: 2-3

Data: Weal, 93

​

-- Total production = 130+. (Weal, 93)

-- "Entered service end 1938, equipping 4 Escadrilles by outbreak of WWII; during Battle of France employed not as naval torpedo-bomber, but primarily in ground-attack role in support of French Army; also engaged in southern France and Mediterranean areas against Italy; after French capitulation continued to serve FVNAF, and later FFNAF, from Mediterranean and West African bases; latterly co-operated RAF Coastal Command Wellingtons as U-boat hunter/killer team; late 1944 returned mainland France, participated actions against German-held strongpoints on Atlantic/Biscay coasts; immediate post-war months performed policing duties as part occupation forces southern Germany; retired FNAF first-line service Spring 1946." (Weal, 93)

Laté 298-01

​-- "Prototype; 3-seat torpedo-bomber floatplane (1)." (Weal, 93)

​-- "The [298-01] was flown for the first time on [05/08/1936], and was sent to St Raphael in the following [09/1936] for official French Navy trials.  As a result of these an order was placed in 1937 for 36 generally similar production aircraft.  Powerplant of the prototype was [Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 1] with provision for mounting a 20mm cannon between the engine cylinder banks ... but this option was rejected in the production models in favor of a 7.5mm Darne [in each wing], with a 3rd similar gun on a movable mounting in the rear cockpit." (Munson & Wood, 144)

Laté 298A

​-- "Initial production model; modified canopy; land-based fixed wing; dual controls (24)." (Weal, 93)

​-- "The first production aircraft [298A] was flown for the first time on [10/29/1938]." (Munson & Wood, 144)

-- "Range with torpedo: 495 miles (800km)." (Munson & Wood, 77)

​-- "Take-off weight with torpedo: 10,141 lb (4,600 kg)." (Munson & Wood, 77)

​-- "Operational Celing: 21,325 ft (6,500m)." (Munson & Wood, 77)

​-- for more detail see Munson & Wood.

Laté 298B

-- "Seaplane carrier-borne; folding wing; 4 crew (27+)." (Weal, 93)

Laté 298C

​-- "Project only." (Weal, 93)

Laté 298D

​-- "Modified 298B; fixed wing (approx. 60)." (Weal, 93)

Laté 298E

​-- "Observation/coastal patrol version; torpedo/bomb crutch replaced by ventral observation gondola; increased canopy area; 298D conversion." (Weal, 93)

Laté 298F

​-- "as 298D; minor modifications; German controlled wartime productions; 30 ordered." (Weal, 93)

Laté 299

-- "Prototypes; carrier-borne reconnaissance/torpedo-bomber version of Laté 298B; retractable undercarriage; lengthened fuselage; Hispano-Suiza 12Y 43 970hp." (Weal, 93)

 

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 29 October 2018 - 08:18 PM.

[J311yfish]

Tier V alternates

 

SNCAO C.A.O.200 (01/1939) -- interceptor fighter -- M.Marie -- 1 built -- [2,500 kg]

 

V  Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31 860hp @ 2400rpm @ 10,660' [3250m] -- 445 km/h @ SL -- 550 km/h @ 5000m -- 277 mph [446 km/h] @ SL -- 304 mph @ 13,120' [489 km/h @ 4000m] -- 332mph @ 15,090' [534 km/h @ 4600m] -- 342 mph @ 19,685' [550km/h @ 6000m]

     Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 1100hp @ 2500rpm @ 10,695' [3260m] -- 612 km/h @ 5500m est.

1x20mm Hispano-Suiza 404 (E)

2x7.5mm MAC 1934 (W)

Data: Weal, 96 / Green, 38

 

-- Total production = 1. (Weal, 96)

-- "Produced as a competitor to Dewoitine D.520, prototype C.A.O.200 first flew [01/31/1939]; none of initial Service Trials order completed before capitulation; sole prototype returned SNCAO works as part of factory defense flight." (Weal, 96)

-- "... produced by the [SNCAO] at the former Nieuport works at Issy-les-Moulineaux, was designed by M.Marie of the former Nieuport design team and was, in fact, a progressive development of the earlier Nieuport Ni-161 fighter designed to the same specification as the [MS.405].  Produced to compete with the [D.520], and exhibited as a full-scale mock-up during the 1938 Salon de l'Aeronautique, the CAO.200 was designed to take the [Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 1100hp @ 2500rpm @ 10,695'], but the prototype, which flew for the first time on [01/31/1939] at Villacoublay, was fitted with the [Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31 830hp (860hp @ 2400rpm @ 10,660')]. With this engine the CAO.200 was somewhat underpowered." (Green, 37)

-- "The structure ... made extensive use of electric welding. The single-piece wing possessed a single metal girder structure with metal stressed-skin covering.  The forward fuselage was constructed of electrically-welded steel tubes with detachable duralumin panels, and the rear section was a duralumin monocoque.  Leading-edge wing slats were interconnected with the trailing-edge flaps, opening automatically when the flaps were lowered 40º​, and the incidence of the tailplane could be varied." (Green, 37)

-- "During flight trials several modifications were made.  The leading-edge slats were modified to open when the flaps were lowered 32º, auxiliary vertical surfaces were attached to the tailplane, and ejector exhaust stubs were fitted, the thrust augmentation provided by these increasing maximum speed by 10 mph." (Green, 38)

​-- "The prototype had flown 30 hours when it was handed over to the CEMA in [08/1939].  Official trials were successful but the [D.520] had already been ordered into quantity production.  Nevertheless, work on an evaluation batch of 12 CAO.200 fighters powered by [H-S 12Y-51] began but, in the event, none of these was completed before France's collapse.  With [H-S 12Y-51] it was anticipated that ... would attain 380mph [612 km/h] @ 18,045' [5500m].  The prototype ... was returned to the SNCAO to supplement Villacoublay's defenses, but there is no record of this aircraft seeing action." (Green, 38)

-- "... the C.A.O. 200, which looks like a development of the Nieuport 161. The estimated speed of 340 mph (for the present version with Hispano 12Y) can be believed, for the machine is small and very clean though the undersurface of the deep fuselage is somewhat angular.  Radiators are apparently installed in the wings. Slotted flaps are specified and the wings are very heavily tapered and have an unusually sharp dihedral.  The climb to 19,600 ft is said to take only 7.5 minutes." (Flight 12/01/1938 p.489)

C.A.O.200 prototype:

-- "Development of Nieuport Ni-161; [V  Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31 860hp]." (Weal, 96)

C.A.O.200

-- "Preproduction model; [V  Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51 1100hp]; 12 ordered, none completed." (Weal, 96)

-- "Development of the CAO.200 was abandoned as the competitive [D.520] had already been selected for quantity production for the Armee de l'Air, and reports that work was initiated on a pre-production batch of CAO.200s and that the sole prototype participated in the defense of Chateauroux had no foundation in fact." (Green, 107)

-- max speed 446 km/h @ SL; 550 km/h @ 6,000m; 2.45min to 2,000m; endurance 2.0 hrs; normal loaded 2,500 kg; span 9.50m; length 8.90m; height 3.50m; wing area 13.30m². (Green, 107)

 

 

 

Roussel 30 (04/1939) -- fighter-bomber -- M.Roussel -- 1 built -- [1,765 kg]

 

IV Gnome-Rhone 14M7 690hp -- 323 mph @ 19,030' [520 km/h @ 5800m] -- [ref: Henschel Hs 129 B]

V  Gnome-Rhone 14M 800hp

2x20mm Oerlikon AS

​1x550lb bomb

​Data: Green, 67

 

-- "...designed and built privately by M.Roussel, the brother of the designer of the Bloch M.150 fighter.  Construction of the prototype began in the autumn of 1938 at Courbevoie, near Paris, and the machine was completed within 6 months, flying for the first time in [04/1939] at the Etampes Armée de l'Air base." (Green, 67)

-- "... structure comprised a duralumin monocoque fuselage and an all-metal wing with fabric-covered ailerons and flaps on the outboard panels and a metal-skinned split-flap across the center section. Tanks between the main and auxiliary wing spars housed 88 Imp. gal. of fuel, a Messier retractable undercarriage was fitted, and power was provided by [Gnome-Rhone 14M7] radial engine." (Green, 67)

-- "Initial flight trials dictated some modification to the rudder balance and the fitting of an improved locking system for the tailwheel, and after completing 30 hours in the air ... was handed over to the CEMA (Centre d'Essais du Matériel Aé​rien) for official trials [08/1939].  During these trials a 22 Imp. gal. fuel tank was installed behind the cockpit and, in [05/1940], the armament was installed.  No 20mm Hispano-Suiza 404 cannon were available, as these were required for operational aircraft, and, therefore [2x20mm Oerlikon AS] were fitted, installed immediately outboard of the undercarriage points. Attachment points were provided under the center fuselage for [1x550 lb] bomb." (Green, 67)

-- "The proposed radio equipment was not installed and, owing to the design of the internal contours of the intake, the Gnome-Rhone engine gave optimum power 2950 ft higher than the specified altitude.  Handling trials were extremely successful and the Roussel 30 prototype was being fitted with a new 800hp version of the Gnome-Rhone 14M engine when the German forces approached Paris.  The fighter was, therefore, hastily dismantled and sent to Bordeaux where it was later destroyed when the building in which it was stored burned down." (Green, 67)

-- Max speed 520 km/h @ 5,800m; initial climb 19.0m/s; endurance 2.0 hrs; empty 1,030kg; loaded 1,765kg; span 7.75m; wing area 10.00m². (Green, 504)

 

 

Potez 230 (~12/1939) -- lightweight fighter -- Brunet, Lemaitre, Hubert -- 1 built -- [1,800 kg]

III  Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs 670hp -- 273 mph [439 km/h] @ SL -- 348 mph [560 km/h] @ 16,400' [5000m]

     Hispano-Suiza 12Y -- 391 mph est. [629 km/h]

1x20mm H-S (E) proposed

4x7.5mm MAC 1934 M39 (W) proposed

Data: Green, 61

 

-- from Mureaux 190 above

-- "...employed a similar wing planform to that of the earlier fighter, the wing comprising 2 semi-elliptic sections which were attached at 4 points on the fuselage center line.  The leading and trailing edges of the wing were attached to a torsion box of integral construction -- the first of its type to be flown -- and hydraulically-operated split flaps were attached to the trailing edges.  The oval section fuselage was built up of 4 longerons and a number of open-section frames, the forward section being covered by removable metal panels and the rear section having stressed skinning.  Power was provide by [Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs 670hp @ 13,120ft] driving a Ratier airscrew, and the legs of the main Messier undercarriage members contracted as they retracted so that the main-wheels lay flat in fuselage wells." (Green, 60)

-- "Flight tests with the Potez 230 commenced at Villacoublay during [12/1939] and [01/1940] with test pilot Georges Detré​ at the controls.  Only minor teething troubles were encountered during the initial test phase, and on [05/08/1940] after modifications to the coolant water pump and some softening of the undercarriage shock absorbers ... the prototype attained speeds of 273 mph [440 km/h] @ SL and 348 mph [560 km/h] @ 16,400ft [5000m].  The proposed installation of the more powerful Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine would, it was estimated, have resulted in a maximum speed of 391 mph [629 km/h]." (Green, 60-61)

-- "When German forces occupied Villacoublay [06/1940], they discovered the Potez 230 intact, and ... a technical team, interested in the integral structure of the wing torsion box, had the prototype ferried to a German test center, and seized all drawings and data related to the machine's construction.  Performance data quoted in the following specification is that attained during test flying." (Green, 61)

-- (same engine as Loire-Nieuport 161, additional 2x7.5mm on wings; only 1 prototype made, captured by Germans)

-- Max speed 560 km/h @ 5,000m; endurance 1.5 hrs; loaded 1,800kg; span 8.74m; length 7.57m; height 2.18m; wing area 10.97m². (Green, 483)

 

 

 

Bloch MB.700 (04/1940) -- Light Interceptor Fighter -- André Herbemont -- 1 built -- [1,850+ kg]

IV  Gnome-Rhone 14M6 700hp -- 342 mph @ 13,120' [550 km/h @ 4000m] -- [ref: Henschel Hs 129 B]

2x20mm Hispano-Suiza HS-404 (W) and 2x7.5mm MAC 1934 M39 (W)

or IV  4x7.5mm MAC 1934 M39 (W)

Data: Green, 36

 

-- the only monoplane design by SPAD master craftsman André Herbemont; prototype burned by the Germans.

-- "During the late 1930s, the French Air Ministry began to consider the use of non-strategic materials ... specification was issued for a single-seat fighter of wooden construction ... André Herbemont, who had previously designed all SPAD types produced after 1918, prepared the MB.700.  Conceived and built at the former Blériot-Aé​ronautique works at Suresnes which had been incorporated in the SNCASO when the French aircraft industry was nationalized in 1937, the MB.700-01 was flown first on [04/19/1940] at Buc." (Green, 35)

-- "For its relatively low power (700hp), the MB.700 had an excellent performance, but the prototype had only completed a dozen hours in the air when Buc airfield was occupied by German forces.  For some unexplained reason, the MB.700-01 was not ferried to safety before the arrival of enemy forces, and the Germans, evidently believing the prototype to be booby-trapped, promptly burnt the machine." (Green, 35)

-- "At the time of France's collapse, M. Herbemont's team was working on a shipboard development of the basic design, the MB.720." (Green, 35)

-- 3-view

-- "In 1936, the Ministère de l'Air established a requirement for a lightweight fighter of wooden construction which resulted in the development of the Arsenal VG 30, the Caudron C.713 and the Bloch 700. The last-mentioned type, designed by André Herbemont, who had been responsible for the Bleriot SPAD fighter series, was built at the former Bleriot-Aéronautique plant at Suresnes which had been incorporated in the Société Nationale de Construction Aéronautiques du Sud-Ouest (SNCAS) on [01/01/1937], under the directorship of Marcel Bloch. Of stressed-skin construction, the Bloch 700 was powered by [Gnome-Rhone 14M6 700 hp @ t/o] 14-cylinder radial engine … and had provision for [2x20mm Hispano-Suiza 404 and 2x7.5mm MAC 1934 M39]. The sole prototype was destroyed at Buc after capture by German forces." (Green, 71-72)

-- Max speed 550 km/h; endurance 2 hrs; loaded weight (excluding armament) 1,850 kg; span 8.90m; length 7.34m; height 3.40m; wing area 12.40m². (Green, 72)

-- wing span 5.98m; length 4.93m; height 1.67m; wing area 12.40m²; weight total 1850kg; wing loading 148 kg/m²;  Gnome-Rhone 14M6 700 CV; maximum speed 500 km/h @ 4000m; endurance 2hrs. (Herbemont, 113)

-- datasheet by Dassault Aviation

 

 

 

 

Grumman F4F Wildat

https://worldofwarpl...planes/usa/f4f/

https://en.wikipedia...man_F4F_Wildcat

Edited by J311yfish, 27 January 2019 - 04:57 AM.

[J311yfish]

Tier VI alternates

 

Caudron C.760/770 (early 1940, 05/1940) -- lightweight fighter -- Louis Renault -- 3 built -- [2,000 kg / 2,248 kg]

 

C.715

-- "... based on [C.714] but was powered by an Italian Isotta-Fraschini Delta RC.40 air-cooled engine offering some 300hp more than the Renault engine of the C.714.  Although it was originally proposed to install a supercharged Renault engine in the new fighter, the non-availability of this power plant necessitated the acquisition of a manufacturing license for the Isotta-Fraschini. // While still on the drawing board, the designation ... was changed from C.715 to CR.760." (Green, 41)

C.720 Trainer version of C.714

-- "Renault 'Bengali' 6Q 220hp or Renault 4 Pei 100hp." (Weal, 90)

CR.760

-- "Prototypes; modified C.714; Isotta-Fraschini Delta RC.40 750hp." (Weal, 90)

-- "Pre-assembled elements were employed in the CR.760s construction.  The wing comprised 2 wooden box spars with wooden ribs and a stressed plywood skin, and carried electrically-actuated leading-edge slots in magnesium alloy, and electrically-actuated light-alloy fabric-covered split flaps.  The fuselage was a welded steel-tube structure with moulded dural skinning. An 86 Imp. gal. fuel tank was housed in the fuselage between the firewall and the forward bulkhead of the cockpit, and the main undercarriage members were retracted hydraulically.  The armament of 6 machine guns was housed in 2 trays attached to the undersurfaces of the wings, outboard of the undercarriage wells, with 300 r.p.g.  The ammunition compartments were later exteneded towards the wingtips to increase the number of rounds per gun to ... ultimately 3,000 [r.p.g]." (Green, 41)

-- "3 CR.760 prototypes were built, the CR.760-01 and -02 commencing flight trials at Guyancourt at the beginning of 1940, tests being conducted by the Caudron-Renault chief test pilot, Raymond Delmotte, assisted by the Isotta-Fraschini test pilot Ferrarin [see Italian Ambrosini SAI.403].  Tests proved the CR.760 to possess a phenomenal performance for the power available.  It was also extremely maneuverable and simple to maintain. Both machines were at Orlé​ans-Bricy when the German forces approached the airfield, and were destroyed to prevent them falling into German hands." (Green, 42)

-- Isotta-Fraschini Delta RC.40 730hp -- 285 mph [458.6 km/h] @ SL -- 534 mph @ 16,400ft [5000m]. (Green, 42)  

-- 6x7.5mm MAC 1934 M39 (W). (Green, 44)

-- Max speed 555 km/h @ 4900m; 5.4min to 4,000m; max range 1,200 kg; empty 1,548 kg; loaded 2,000 kg; span 8.97m; length 8.89m; height 2.90m; wing area 12.50m². (Green, 112)

C.770

-- "Prototype; modified C.714; Renault 626 800hp." (Weal, 90)

​-- "The 3rd prototype [CR.760] airframe was completed as the CR.770-01." (Green, 42)

​-- "Although the Renault company had purchased manufacturing licenses for the Isotta-Fraschini Delta and Zeta air-cooled engines at the beginning of 1940, M. Louis Renault decided to proceed with the development of a new 16-cylinder air-cooled inverted-Vee engine to replace the Renault 12Roi which, installed in the C.714 fighter, offered insufficient power ... Within the remarkably short period of 50 days, the new engine [Renault 626 800hp] which employed many 12Roi components, ran for the first time ... installed in the CR.760-03 airframe, which, with a new wing, became the CR.770-01.  The fuselage and tail assembly were identical with those of the CR.760." (Green, 43)

​-- "The first and only flight ... took place at Guyancourt in [05/1940] with Raymond Delmotte at the controls.  10 minutes after take-off the Renault 626's long crankshaft broke, but Delmotte succeeded in landing the prototype safely.  The hastily constructed engine had been provided with insufficient bearings, and the necessary changes were being made when the Wehrmacht approached the Paris area ... [prototype destroyed]." (Green, 43-44)

​-- 278mph [447 km/h] @ SL -- 367 mph @ 14,765ft [590.6 km/h @ 4500m]. (Green, 44)

-- Max speed 590 km/h @ 4,500m; 4.67 min to 4,000m; range 1,500km; empty 1,740kg; loaded 2,248kg; span 8.68m; length 9.90m; height 2.92m; wing area 12.50m². (Green, 112)

C.780

-- project only. (Weal, 90)

-- "A further development ... the CR.780, was planned at the time of France's capitulation.  This, powered by a [Renault 468 500hp] and carrying [2x20mm H-S 404 and 2x or 4x7.5mm] was expected to attain a maximum speed of 331mph [533 km/h] @ 12,000ft [3658m]." (Green, 44)

 

 

 

SNCAC NC.900 (Focke-Wulf Fw-190)

 

-- Focke-Wulf Fw-190 continued to be built after the war from factories in France, used as a stop-gap fighter

 

 

Douglas SBD Dauntless (__/19__) -- to France (__/19__)

 

to be replaced by SO.8000 Narval

 

 

 

 

Tier VII alternates

 

Chance-Vought F4U-7 Corsair (__/19__) -- to France (__/19__)

 

-- "French post-war naval aviation was rebuilt around 2 aircraft carriers acquired from the Royal Navy and re-christened as the Dixmude​ and the Arromanches​.  Among the aircraft types with which Aé​ronavale was re-equipped was the Chance Vought Corsair [F4U-7] ... which retired from service only in 1965 in favor of the Dassault Etendard." (Munson, 119)

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 27 May 2018 - 08:50 PM.

[J311yfish]

Tier VIII, IX, X alternates

 

Heinkel He 162 (12/1944) -- [2,805 kg] -- developed by Germany; continued in-game for Japan as Ki-162-I and Ki-162-III

 

-- early jet development captured 1945 by the Americans, British, and French; if used it would help to explain the developments that arose from captured BMW jet technology.

 

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.710 (design 1947)

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.711 (design 1947)

 

Morane-Saulnier MS.752 (proposal 03/1952)

Edited by J311yfish, 11 October 2018 - 03:47 PM.

[jack_wdw]

J311yfish, on 16 May 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

Tier II alternates

 

Bernard 260 (09/1932) -- fighter prototype; 2 underwing cannons (verify); lost to D.500

 

II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp -- 315 km/h @ SL -- 360 km/h @ 5000m

II  2x7.7mm Vickers

Data: Green, 61-62

 

-- "The Benard 260 was designed to meet the … 1931 competitive specification for a single-seat fighter in the 3,748-3,968 lb (1700-1800kg) weight category with a max speed ranging from [300 km/h @ SL] to [350 km/h @ 5000m]. It was the only one of 9 competing aircraft to feature high-lift devices in the form of leading-edge slats and trailing-edge flaps.  Of all-metal construction with an armament of [2x7.7mm Vickers] beneath the wings and powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp] 12-cylinder water-cooled engine … flown for the first time in [09/1932]. Initially tested with a fixed radiator bath beneath the nose and subsequently with twin radiators attached to the undercarriage legs, and finally with a Chausson frontal radiator … underwent numerous modifications during its test program. However, no production was undertaken, [D.500] being selected as winning contender." (Green, 61-62)

-- Max speed 315 km/h @ SL; 360 km/h @ 5000m; 30min to 10,000m; empty 1357kg; loaded 1800kg; (more). (Green, 62)

 

H.52

-- "The H.52 (the prefix indicating Hydravion) resulted from a proposal to the Marine Nationale late in 1932 that a single-seat float fighter be built which could utilize the wing, rear fuselage and tail surfaces of the Bernard 260.  Of all-metal construction … mid-wing cantilever monoplane powered by [Gnome-Rhone 9Kdrs 500hp] and armed with [2x7.5mm Darne] beneath the wings. Construction followed the practice adopted by previous Bechereau-designed Bernard fighters in that the center fuselage between the firewall and cockpit was built integral with the wing, and Handley Page slots occupied most of the wing leading edge. The first prototype was flown [06/16/1933], and was tested with 2-, 3- and 4-bladed propellers.  A 2nd prototype joined the test program in 1934, but no production order was placed." (Green, 62)

-- Max speed 285 km/h @ SL; 328 km/h @ 4000m; 9min to 4000m; normal range 600km; empty 1480kg; loaded 1888kg; (more). (Green, 62)

 

H.110

-- "In the autumn of 1934, after abandoning further work on the H.52, Avions Bernard initiated development of a new single-seat fighter, the H.110, which was to be evaluated in competition with the Loire 210 and the Romano 90.  Powered by [Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs 710hp] 9-cylinder radial (license-built derivative of the Wright Cyclone), the H.110 bore a close resemblance to the earlier H.52, and employed generally similar structure and armament, but featured fabric-covered rather than metal stressed-skin wings. With the liquidation of the Bernard concern, work on the prototype was taken over by Société Schreck, flight trials being initiated in [06/1935]. In the event, the Loire 210 was selected for production to meet the float fighter requirement and development of the H.110 was abandoned." (Green, 62)

-- Max speed 330 km/h @ 2500m; loaded 1900kg; (more). (Green, 62)

 

 

Nieuport-Delage 121 (11/1932)  -- Albert Mary -- ~2 built -- eclipsed by D.500

 

-- "A new single-seat fighter requirement framed by the Service Technique in 1930 (and amended in 1931) resulted in no fewer than 27 submissions, from which 11 basic designs were eventually selected for development to prototype stage. To this requirement … evolved its Ni-D.120 series fighters under a design team by Albert Mary." (Green, 440)

-- "The Ni-D.121 was first flown on [11/25/1932] … before evaluation at the official test center [05/01/1934] … By this time, the [D.500] had been pronounced the winning contender and committed to production. The level speed and climb rates of the Ni-D.121 were commended, but landing speed was considered excessive, the undercarriage weak and the large wing surface radiator area vulnerable." (Green, 442)

-- Max speed 367 km/h @ 5000m; 7.1min to 5000m; empty 1433kg; loaded 1866kg; (more). (Green, 442)

 

 

ANF-Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) -- fighter prototype -- 2 built -- rejected

 

II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp -- 380 km/h @ 4500m

Data: Green, 19

 

 -- "Designed to meet the requirements of the 1930 single-seat fighter program which specified the use of a supercharged engine and a maximum speed of at least 217 mph (350 km/h), the Mureaux 170 was powered by a [II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp] and [2x7.7mm MAC (Vickers) (W)].  Of all-metal construction …  first flown in [11/1932], a 2nd prototype, built as a private venture, flying in [03/1934].  Several changes were made to the size and positioning of the radiator bath, and the fighter was rejected primarily because of the poor visibility from the cockpit for landing." (Green, 18-19)

 

 

 

Nieuport-Delage 125 (06/1934) --- 1 built -- 20mm provision -- eclipsed by D.510

 

Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp -- 400 km/h @ 4500m

1x20mm

Data: Green, 442

 

-- "... powered by [Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp] with provision for a 20mm moteur-canon, and differed in several other respects from previous Ni-D.120 series fighters. The wing leading-edge coolant pipe system was discard in favor of surface radiators comprising 3 panels of small-bore pipes attached on each side of the fuselage beneath the wing section; several degrees of dihedral were applied from the wing centerline; the wing cabane was marginally deepened and the cut-out above the cockpit was enlarged. The sole prototype of the Ni-D.125 entered flight test in [06/1934], and, on [07/16/1934], commenced official flight trials at the Centre d'Essais du Matériel Aérien. There on [(08/09/1934], it suffered minor damage during minimum approach speed trials. Testing was resumed later in the month, but despite what was by consensus an excellent performance, no further development was undertaken as the similarly-powered Dewoitine D.510 had entered flight test and offered the advantages of a high degree of commonlaity with the D.500 already in production. Furthermore, work had already begun on the very much more advanced [Nieuport 160] cantilever low-wing monoplane fighter [which becomes LN.161]." (Green, 442-443)

-- max speed 400 km/h @ 4500m; 6.0min to 5000m; empty 1461kg; loaded 1970kg; (more). (Green, 443)

 

 

 

ANF-Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935) -- 2-seat fighter prototype -- 1 built -- development from ANF-Mureaux 170 -- 20mm

 

II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp

Hispano-Suiza 12 Xcrs

1x20mm (E) + 2x7.7mm MAC + 1x7.7mm flex rear

 

-- "Essentially a 2-seat derivative of Mureuax 170 … similar all-metal structure, but a frontal radiator was provided for the [II  Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs 690hp]. The sole prototype was first flown on [02/10/1935], but in [04/1935] the original single fin-and-rudder assembly was replaced by twin fins and rudders, and an [Hispano-Suiza 12 Xcrs] engine with provision for a 20mm Hispano-Suiza cannon firing through the propeller shaft was installed, engine output being unchanged. Proposed armament comprised [1x20mm (E) + 2x7.7mm MAC + 1x7.7mm flex rear].  The following figures relate to the Mureaux 180 in its final form: Max speed 379 km/h @ 5000m; climb to 6500m in 7.5min; range 750 km; empty weight 2791 lb (1266kg); loaded weight 4306 lb (1953kg); (more)." (Green, 19)

 

 

 

 

I would personally choose the ANF-Mureaux 170 then, just because its a parasole fighter without cannon armament and powered by HP12Xbrs engine.
D.53 might also rather be more at its place in Tier II.

Personally i think light fighters armed with 20mm cannons or powered by HP12Ybrs engines are way too OP for tier II.
I remain convinced that D.500/501/510 would perfectly fit in that Tier III spot.

Edited by jack_wdw, 16 May 2018 - 09:54 AM.

[J311yfish]

 

jack_wdw, on 16 May 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

 

I would personally choose the ANF-Mureaux 170 then, just because its a parasole fighter without cannon armament and powered by HP12Xbrs engine.

Personally i think light fighters armed with 20mm cannons or powered by HP12Ybrs engines are way too OP for tier II.
I remain convinced that D.500/501/510 would perfectly fit in that Tier III spot.

 

ANF-Mureaux 170 is not a parasol, it is actually a gull wing.  If any consideration is to be given to historical narrative, then it would not likely have much place in a progression over the alternatives that happened to be favored by the French.  See the results of their 1930 C1 competition in which 3 categories (low-wing, parasol, gull-wing) are compared against each other:

 

J311yfish, on 14 May 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

1930 C1 program contenders -- "10 designs awarded prototype contracts" (Green, 417); "27 submissions, from which 11 basic designs selected for prototype development" (Green, 442)

 

-- LOW WING:

Dewoitine D.500 (06/18/1932) --> 60 ordered 11/1933 (15 Dewoitine, 45 LeO; 5 by LeO to permit H-S S7); the 15 Dewoitine 500s instead became 8xD500, 5xD501, 2xD.510

Wibault-Penhoet 313 (11/1932) -- the only contender to deviate from H-S 12Xbrs, instead choosing Gnome-Rhone 9Kbrs 520hp; the last Wibault fighter; variable-pitch propeller (innovative at the time)

MS.325 (early 1933)

 

-- PARASOL:

D.370 (10/1931) -- private venture, D.371 (02/1934) ordered by Armee de l'Air and D.373/376 for Aeronautique Navale; all delivered by 12/1935.

D.570 (11/1933)

Ni-D.121 (11/25/1932; official tests 05/01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production
Ni-D.122 (07/23/1932; official tests 09/28/1932; lost 04/13/1933; 2nd prototype 07/13/1933; official tests 01/1934; by this time D.500 pronounced winner and committed to production

MS.275 (1934)

 

-- GULL WING: -- "gull wing condemned by pilots" -- Pulawski wing pioneered in Poland

Loire 43 (09/1934) Loire 45 (02/1933), Loire 46 (09/1934; re-engined 02/1935; order for 5+60 to Armee de l'Air; last delivered 07/1937 obsolescent.

Mureaux 170 (11/1932, 03/1934) --> developed further as 2-seat Mureaux 180 (02/1935, 04/1935)

Gourdou-Lesseurre 482 (02/1933) -- last G-L fighter to be built; "1 of 5 gull-wing fighters for contest" (Green, 256)

Dewoitine D.560 (10/05/1932) --> rebuilt as D.570 (11/1933) parasol

 

 

1931 C1 program (01/26/1931) contenders: "9 competing aircraft" (Green, 61-62)

Dewoitine D.500 (06/1932) --> winner

Bernard 260 (09/1932) --> 261 retractable undercarriage incomplete; 262 carrier-borne unbuilt

 

 

The list above is simplified from the narratives for each aircraft, yet when they are put together you can see that the French chose a winner from each category (as evidenced by production orders placed), and an overall winner, D.500.

 

The Mureaux 170 was not a winner in its category -- that honor would go to the gull-winged Loire 46 despite being obsolescent 2 years later.  The gull wing concept is Polish in origin, there called the Pulawski wing (see PZL P.1 for Poland).  It is one of the defining characteristics of their early aircraft (with many imitators).  If it were up to me (it's not), I would leave the gull-winged progression to Poland, not just because it started there but because they don't have much going for them otherwise.

 

If you are determined to have D.500/501/510 all-together at tier III then a better choice, in my opinion, would be either to have continuity from tier I (such as a follow-on Nieuport-Delage parasol that was promising in trials but eclipsed by D.500), or continuity with tier III (such as a low-wing design like Bernard 74, Bernard 260, both of which have racing heritage -- a common theme).  A gull-wing at tier II would be kind of an odd duck.

 

I remain skeptical about having D.500/501/510 all together at tier III, though.  I can understand how you might consider a 20mm cannon to be "OP", especially given that the 20mm Oerlikon S9 in-game with Fantome is designated tier IV, but consider the severe lack of speed D.500/501/510 would have if placed at tier III.  Really -- look horizontally at other countries and try to imagine how that might play out.  Another thing to consider is that the D.500/501 entered service 7+ months prior to the SPAD S.510 (already designated in-game tier II) and the D.510 did not actually follow until 2 years later. Is that significant?  Maybe.  It starts to look significant when you look at neighboring aircraft (horizontally and vertically).  D.510 was also not the only early aircraft to propose, experiment with, or feature a 20mm motor cannon (early adopters will be identified by a 20mm tag).  Article here Flight Magazine 01/24/1935 p.38-39 describes the P.Z.L. P.24 (anticipated tier III Poland) as being an early adopter (radial + wing-mounted 20mm cannons), as well as the MS.225 with 20mm motor cannon (anticipated tier II France).

 

I think you have an interesting idea by leading up to Bloch with other radials, and I think more might be discovered along those lines by looking closer at specifications and orders for the French Navy.

 

These kinds of discussions are very valuable in order to move the project forward, thank you for that.

[jack_wdw]

Well my case for the Tier III altogether is that it will start stock on the D.500. Which may indeed be underpowered for tier III.
But it's only the stock configuration. The entire serie would consist of 3 engine upgrades, 3 armament upgrades and 1 airframe upgrade (D.501).
For what i've always read the D.510 was a D.501 airframe paired with an upgraded HP12Y engine.
So either you put D.500 at tier II and you have a very little margin for upgrades over this tier and the next tier.

I would suspect the french light fighter line to be a TNB-line,  situated somewhere between british and yak light fighter lines.
The Bulldog in the British line on tier II is a plane that entered service in the late twenties.
It's a biplane with (stock) a 450hp bristol jupiter as engine and a pair of vickers MG's as armament.
Most tier II light fighters only carry a double machinegun as offensive armament.

A fast and manoeuverable cannon armed light fighter in tier II would be a sealclubber's heaven.
The British tier III Bristol 133 would be more or less equal to a D.500/501/510 line at tier III, as well as the German Tier III Ar.80.



 

[J311yfish]

Klimov engines in-game as an approximation for Hispano-Suiza 12Y's:

 

Tier  (aircraft)	Aircraft	Engine	HP	Tier  (engine)	Notes
IV	I-17	M-100	750	IV	= license-built 12Y (wiki)
		M-100A	860	V
		M-103	960	V
IV	LaGG-3 series 4	M-105PA	1050	IV
V	Yak-7	M-105P	1050	V	"design derived based on experience with 12Y" (wiki)
		M-105PD	1160	VI
		M-105PF	1180	VI
VI	Yak-9	M-105PF	1180	VI
		VK-109PF2	1280	VI
		M-106-1sk	1350	VI	"new engine, low alt, reduced compression ratio, single-speed supercharger" (wiki)
VII	Yak-9U	VK-105PF2	1280	VI
		M-106-1sk	1350	VI	"new engine, low alt, reduced compression ratio, single-speed supercharger" (wiki)
		VK-107A	1500	VII	"new design, little in common with precursors" (wiki)
VII	Yak-3	VK-108	1850	VIII	"attempt to further develop VK-107" (wiki)

 

[J311yfish]

 Here is an excellent reference aircraft -- the Renard R-36 from Belgium.  It is excellent because it utilized 3 different engines over a short duration of time, with development in parallel, very little change to the airframe, and just prior to the German invasion -- meaning a direct comparison across engine lines is possible, despite variability in horsepower and drag.  

 

Airframe -- (first flight) -- Engine -- Max speed -- weight; dimensions

R-36 -- (11/05/1937) -- Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 910hp 12-cylinder liquid-cooled Vee -- 505 km/h @ 4000m; empty 1,770kg; loaded 2,470kg; span 11.64m; length 8.80m; height 2.90m; wing area 20.00m².

R-37 -- (07/__/1939) -- Gnome-Rhone 14N-21 1,100hp 14-cylinder air-cooled radial -- 510 km/h @ 5000m; empty 1,810kg; loaded 2,460kg; dimensions as R-36 except for length 8.40m.

R-38 -- (08/04/1939) -- Rolls-Royce Merlin II 1030hp 12-cylinder liquid-cooled Vee -- 545 km/h @ 5000m; empty 1,950kg; loaded 2,600kg; dimensions as R-36.

Data: (Green, 490-491)

 

Data for R-37 is estimated by Green.  It was displayed statically 07/1939 (here too with Merlin) but flight data is not known, even though it was flown by a German officer after occupation 05/1940.

 

Links above are to the engines in-game for Fairey Fantôme (tier IV), SNCASE SE.100 (tier V), and Supermarine Spitfire I (tier V).

 

The R-36 competed against the Fairey Fantôme (tier IV) for a Belgian order, whose specifications (noted here) can be compared directly to French specifications (noted here) that resulted in MS.405 and Bloch 150 -- meaning their placement at tier IV/V can be authenticated.

 

Airframe -- armament

R-36 -- 4x7.7mm (W) + 1x20mm (E) -- flown with this

R-37 -- 4x7.7mm (W) or 2x13.2mm (W) -- proposed, but not necessarily flown with this

R-38 -- 4x7.7mm (W) or 4x13.2mm (W) -- flown with this

 

So, by switching from H-S 12Ycrs (tier IV) to Merlin II (tier V):

• loss of 20mm motor cannon
• loaded weight +130kg
• airspeed +40 km/h @ greater altitude

 

Now we have a quantifiable (and verifiable) assessment of the value of the 20mm as it relates to airspeed at tier IV/V.

 

Going further, if we look at in-game values for the 20mm motor cannon on Fantôme, especially effective range, then perhaps we can figure out how much "time on target" might be achieved by the D.501/510 if it is placed at tier II or tier III. For example, if you go head-to-head with someone, then you turn to fire at their tail -- how much time do you have to land a shot? and how quickly must you turn in order to have a reasonable chance of putting that 20mm to work?  I mention this, because as it looks right now, the A5M and Ki-27 appear to murder the D.510 at tier III.

 

20mm Oerlikon S9 (H)  IV

Damage per Second 70

Rate of Fire 300 rounds/min

Effective range 580m

* D.500 -- 371 km/h 

* D.501 -- 367 km/h @ 5000m

* D.510 -- 402 km/h @ 5000m

* Fairey Fantôme (tier IV) -- 430 km/h @ best altitude (premium)

 

MG-FF (H)  IV

Damage per Second 60

Rate of Fire 320 rounds/min

Effective range 580m 

* Fw 57 (tier III) -- 350km/h (default engine with default 2x20mm); 400 km/h at best alt (max config)

* Fw 159 (tier III) -- 400 km/h @ best alt (default engine, max cannon); 440 km/h @ best alt (max config) -- 2470 xp to unlock cannon

* Do 17Z-7 (tier III) -- 410 km/h @ best alt (premium)

* Ar 80 (tier III) -- 420 km/g @ best altitude (first engine capable of cannon); 450 km/h @ best altitude (max config) -- 650 xp + 2470 xp to unlock cannon

 

Based on the above, the D.510 at maximum configuration is comparable in speed to the Fw 159 at its earliest cannon configuration.

 

Also based on the above, the amount of time (battles) to get from D.500 to D.510 would probably be <5 battles (~650 xp for engine upgrade + ~2470 xp for cannon).

 

This may make a strong case for D.500/501/510 at tier II, and D.513 or MS.405, or something else at tier III.  Perhaps a closer look horizontally at pre-Hurricane UK will be more telling.  Another possibility is to remove D.500/501/510 from progression entirely and replace with parasol fighter development.

 

Something else to consider, though, would be dive speed and dive acceleration, because all of the above are level flight speeds only. The Fw 57's slower default level speed is made up for by attacking from altitude, for example.  Also, if C.714's performance is indicative of a overall theme for the French, then perhaps we will see D.500/501/510's 'deficiency' in level speed made up for with good dive speed.

 

Anyway, there's kicking the can around a bit 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 18 May 2018 - 11:48 PM.

[jack_wdw]

Now your discussing my heritage.
As a belgian i am very fond of the R.36.
It was a beautiful and excellent plane.
It entered a competition to replace the Fairey Firefly.
It don't know if it competed with the Fantome but definitely with the Hurricane (which in hindsight was considered inferior to the R.36).
There was a cool documentary about Alfred Renard on belgian television some years back.
He really was a visionary but didn't get the appreciation he deserved.
During the war years he was an active member of the resistance movement in belgium.

The r.36 prototype crashed during its demonstration flight because it's radio equipment came loose in a dive, knocking out the testpilot.
Rumors have it, that some foul play might have been involved. Certain politicians were in heavy favour of a SABCA license build of the hurricane  (with 4x 0.50 cals instead of the 30cals).
Being a lighter, more streamlined and agile fighter and packing a 20mm cannon, in hindsight the r.36 was regarded to be the better choice.
It was faster than the hurricane which had a more powerful engine. It actually had more or less the performance of a Dewoitine D.520
https://en.wikipedia...iki/Renard_R.36

R.36 may be a tier IV, but R.37 and R.38 feel more at place in Tier V
The plane in-game that (according to me) bears the most resemblance with the R.36 is the early Yak-1 with bubble canopy.

The R.37 was a much later evolution (+2 years) on the same airframe with a radial.
It got a lot of positive attention at Paris Air Salon 1939, but the war prohibited its development.
It had a lighter machinegun armament and no 20MM cannon, but it could fitted with 8 light bombs and  grenade launchers.
This airplane was last seen at Melsbroek airfield, when a luftwaffe pilot flew it to germany for testing.
www.belgian-wings.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/CivilPics/civil_pics_ooaaa_ooczz/Renard%20R-37%20OO-ATJ/Renard_R37%20FNAR.pdf

The r.38/40 was an evolution with a merlin II engine, mainly to give it better altitude performance. The french were interested in this one, but it never materialized due to the occupation of both countries.
http://www.belgian-w.../renard_r38.htm
There was even a propsed zwilling version of this version in the pipeline.

Look we can discuss this as much as we want.
I can't be really convinced otherwise as the D500/501/510 being the perfect french candidate for tier III.
I see similarity in terms of upgrades with the english and german light fighter line.

I do agree with you that  D.500 is more of a tier II, but i can only see it as a premium in tier II.
I'm absolutely opposed to d.501 as tier II, mainly because of its cannon armament which i think is too OP for that tier for a light fighter.
D.501/510 can be a tier III line.
Or if you think D.501 is too weak for tier III, you can have the D.510 as a tier III premium.
But a lot of other planes start undertiered in their stock configuration.
First to come to mind are the F2a and LaGG-3, which also feature as a premium in a lower tier.
 

Edited by jack_wdw, 18 May 2018 - 06:48 PM.

[J311yfish]

It may be that the difference in level speed is made up for in Optimum Altitude and Dive Speed, like Fw 57 -- here is a quick comparison of Ar 80, Fw 57, Ki-27, with configurations noted (spoiler tag):

 

 

 

It could be imagined that the D.500/501/510, at tier III, would resemble the Ar 80 and Fw 57 in Optimum Altitude and Dive Speed, yet resemble the Ki-27 in turn rate.

 

(I don't know how Optimum Airspeed is derived, or exactly how it affects physics, but that is another variable for which they will have to account.)

 

One more comparison -- XP-31 vs Ki-27 vs Ar 80:

 

 

This just gives us an approximation for basement values of D.500 if it were instead to begin at tier II.  It would be faster than XP-31 at best altitude.

 

Okay on to other things!

[J311yfish]

Minor update 05/2018

 

 

Where we are at:

-- standardized metric values for speed, altitude, span, length, height, weight, etc.

-- standardized color schemes for first flight dates, designers, significant historical notes, significant performance figures, delivery dates

-- standardized criteria for data inclusion; published primary sources or first-hand accounts as highest priority, Wikipedia for leads only

-- detail saturation from multiple sources to verify information, identify historical development and determine tier placement via module progression

-- lateral inferences made from premium aircraft in-game (France and U.K.'s Fairey Fantome with Hispano-Suiza engine and 20mm motor cannon)

-- lateral inferences made from aircraft known to feature French engines (I'm looking at YOU, Hs 129B!)

-- lateral inferences made from highly-detailed United Kingdom tech tree project

-- lateral inferences made from Poland tech tree project

-- identification of 'alternates' -- those prototypes and projects that for one reason or another did not proceed to production, and may show up premiums

-- added tags for early use of 20mm cannons (Ex: 20mm) -- this is necessary to identify potential for imbalance if any

-- added tags for normal loaded weight (Ex: 2,000 kg) -- this is necessary to understand the influence of the early Jockey program on subsequent development

 

 

Where we are going!

-- detail refinement via William Green, Flight Magazine archive (British aviation history) -- ongoing

-- working on Germany to improve France and Italy: historical development, first flight dates, production dates, service entry dates

-- lateral inferences from Germany suggest MS.225 as tier 1 for France, and Fiat CR.30 for Italy, for example

-- French Secret Projects 1: Post War Fighters, by Jean-Christophe Carbonel (Crecy 2016)

-- French Secret Projects 2: Cold War Bombers, Patrol, and Assault Aircraft, by Jean-Christophe Carbonel (Crecy 2017)

-- identify potential for alternate timeline looking forward from 05/1940 -- such as Bugatti 100P fighter development

-- identify potential for alternate timeline for Italy that is favorable to Sergio Stefanutti -- such as light fighter development response to France

-- investigate all development related to and leading up to Fouga Magister (Robert Castello previously of D.520)

 

Edited by J311yfish, 27 May 2018 - 11:53 PM.