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[spoiler] what the French tech tree could look like

France tech tree Dewoitine Morane-Saulnier Potez Bloch Dassault Arsenal Breguet Caudron

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J311yfish #121 Posted 27 April 2018 - 12:27 AM

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French tech tree project will be updated slowly over the coming weeks with information from these sources:

-- Combat Aircraft of World War II, by Elke C. Weal, John A. Weal and Richard Barker (Arms & Armour Press 1977)

-- Bombers 1939-1945, by Kenneth Munson (Blandford Press 1969)

-- War Planes of the Second World War: Fighters, Volume 1, by William Green (Hanover House 1960)

-- Jane's All the Worlds Aircraft, by C.G. Grey and Leonard Bridgman (issued 12/1938)

-- Biplane to Monoplane: Aircraft Development 1919-1939, by Philip Jarrett (Putnam 1997)

​-- Aircraft of the Second World War: The Development of the Warplane 1939-1945, by Philip Jarrett (Putnam 1997)

​-- Nieuport-Delage Ni-D 29 & Ni-D 62 family, (French Wings 2), by Jose Fernandez (2011 Stratus)

​-- Nieuport 1909-1950 (Docavia #38), by Leonard Rosenthal, Alain Marchand, Michel Borget, Michel Benichou

​-- The Talisman: The Autobiography of Marcel Dassault, translated by Patricia High Painton (1971)

 


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J311yfish #122 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:19 PM

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TWIN-ENGINE HEAVY FIGHTERS and BOMBERS

 

Tier I

 

Breguet XIX B.2 (05/1922) -- bomber -- ~1,500 built

 

 

Tier II

 

Hanriot H.110, H.115 (04/1933, 04/1934) -- heavy fighter prototype; 33mm cannon

 

Potez 65 (__/1936) -- transport/light bomber -- ~80 built

 

Potez 540 (__/193_)

 

Bloch MB 200 (__/1933) -- medium bomber -- 333 built -- entered service 1934

 

 

Bernard 82 (12/1933) -- long-range bomber -- 2 built

 

SAB AB-20 (01/1932) -- heavy night bomber -- ~2 built

 

Lioré​-et-Olivier LeO 206 (__/1933) -- 4-engine heavy bomber -- 43 built -- entered service 1934

 


Edited by J311yfish, 19 May 2018 - 12:16 AM.

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J311yfish #123 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:21 PM

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Tier III

 

Amiot 143M (spring 1935) -- reconnaissance bomber -- 144 built

 

Bloch 131 RB4 (__/19__) -- reconnaissance bomber -- 143 built

 

Bloch MB 210 BN5 (__/19__) -- medium night bomber -- 283 built -- entered service 1937

 

Douglas DB-7 -- attack bomber

-- 100 ordered from United States. (Camelio & Shores, 4)

 

Martin 167F -- attack bomber/reconnaissance

-- 115 ordered from United States. (Camelio & Shores, 4)

 

Caudron C.670 Typhon (03/1937) -- twin-engine light fighter-bomber

 

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 23 May 2018 - 05:15 PM.

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J311yfish #124 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:21 PM

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Tier IV

 

Potez 631 C3 (04/1936+) -- heavy fighter / night fighter -- ~1,360 built

 

Potez 633 B2 (__/19__) -- light bomber -- ~1,360 built

 

Potez 63.11 (__/19__) -- tactical reconnaissance/army co-operation -- ~1,360 built -- "France's Blenheim"

 

Hanriot H.220 (09/1937) -- twin-engine light fighter-bomber-reconnaissance

 

 

Breguet 462 "Vultur" (__/19__) -- bomber

 

Farman F.222.2 (__/19__) -- 4-engine heavy night bomber -- 53 built

 

Farman NC 223.3 BN5 (__/19__) -- heavy bomber -- 13+ built

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 13 May 2018 - 02:32 PM.

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J311yfish #125 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:22 PM

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Tier V

 

Breguet 693 AB2 (03/1938+, 03/1940) -- Georges Ricard -- light attack bomber -- 386 built -- "France's Beaufighter"

 

Potez 670/671 (03/1939) -- 2-seat long-range escort fighter / bomber destroyer -- ~1 built

 

Bloch 174 A3 (02/1938, 01/1939) -- reconnaissance/light bomber -- 59 built

 

Bloch 175 B3 (12/1939, 04/1940) -- light bomber/attack -- Henri Deplante -- ~21 built

 

Hanriot NC.600 (05/1940) -- twin-engine long-range escort and attack fighter -- 6 under construction

 

 

Amiot 354 B4 (__/19__) -- medium bomber -- ~65 built

 

Lioré-et-Olivier LeO 451 B4 (__/19__) -- medium bomber -- 584 built

 

SNCAC NC.150 (05/1939)

 

SNCAO CAO.600 (03/1940) -- twin-engine torpedo bomber -- 1 built

 

Dewoitine D.770 (06/1939) -- 1 built

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 28 October 2018 - 02:59 AM.

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J311yfish #126 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:23 PM

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Tier VI

 

Breguet Br-480 (__/19__) -- 2-engine bomber -- 

 

Bloch 162 (06/1940) -- 4-engine long-range heavy bomber -- 1 built

 

SNCAO 700 (06/1940) -- 4-engine bomber -- 1 built

 


Edited by J311yfish, 30 April 2018 - 03:30 PM.

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J311yfish #127 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:23 PM

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Tier VII

 

Breguet Br-482 (__/1947) -- 4-engine bomber

 

Nord 1500 Noreclair (08/1947) -- twin-engine dive-bomber/ASW

 


Edited by J311yfish, 17 May 2018 - 10:38 AM.

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J311yfish #128 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:28 PM

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Tier VIII

 

SNCAC NC.1071 (10/1948)


Nord 1500 Noreclair (__/19__) -- twin-engine dive-bomber/ASW

 

SNCASO SO.4000 (03/1951) -- 2-engine bomber

 

SNCAC NC.270 (planned 09/1949) -- M.Robin -- 1 incomplete

 


Edited by J311yfish, 18 July 2019 - 12:11 PM.

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J311yfish #129 Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:29 PM

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Tier IX and X

 

SNCASO SO.4050 Vautour IIA (Vulture) (10/1952) -- ~153 built

 


Edited by J311yfish, 18 July 2019 - 04:11 PM.

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J311yfish #130 Posted 07 May 2018 - 09:27 PM

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Update

 

 

The tree above so far represents a 'best-estimate' based on:

-- Premium aircraft in-game (and their associated modules)

-- Reference aircraft in-game (and their associated modules and/or concepts)

-- First flight dates, engine progression, designers, development notes (all of which have been verified by one-or-more published sources, all listed in original post)

 

It is still a 'work-in-progress' but it is possible at this point to derive some obvious conclusions:

 

1) A primary line of French fighters from I-X is possible

-- it would probably be the in-line fighters composed primarily of Dewoitine and Morane-Saulnier, featuring motor cannons and wing-mounted machine guns

-- it would probably utilize the high-production Ouragan, Mystere II, Mystere IV sequence to achieve VIII-X

 

2) Secondary lines (mini-branches) are possible

-- the Bloch radial fighters would be durable, with wing-mounted cannons, and good dive speed

-- the lightweight fighters of Mureaux, Potez, Arsenal are another opportunity and might resemble the Caudron C.714 characteristics (maneuverability, dive speed)

-- (Note that Caudron C.714/760/770 lightweight fighter progression, while good, was effectively cannibalized by offering C.714 premium; thus Arsenal is the avenue to progression)

-- an outgrowth of the Dewoitine line, by way of the dorsal-intake SE.580 developed in secret, is the Grognard attack jet; SE.580 could be fighter, or attack, depending on interpretation but it certainly seems like the most obvious bridge to Grognard in any case.

-- the heavy fighter sequence is limited; the Potez 63 series has been described as 'the French Blenheim' and the Breguet 693 has been described as 'the French Beaufighter'

-- (Note that Arsenal VB.10 and SNCASE SE.100 heavy fighters offered as premiums indicates Potez and Breguet for progression; also,Arsenal VB.10 was one of the few options available for Tier VII, and NC.1070 for Tier VIII, indicating narrower options for progression)

 

3) A line of French medium bombers from II-X could be possible

-- more detail saturation is necessary to verify, but so far looks promising!


Edited by J311yfish, 07 May 2018 - 11:21 PM.

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jack_wdw #131 Posted 08 May 2018 - 06:23 AM

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Bloch should go over in Dassault, since it is the same manufacturer.

J311yfish #132 Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:26 AM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 08 May 2018 - 01:23 AM, said:

Bloch should go over in Dassault, since it is the same manufacturer.

 

It is true that Marcel Bloch and Marcel Dassault are the same person (industrialist), but beyond that there is nothing (as far as I can tell) that can reasonably bind the Bloch 150-157 series to Dassault Ouragan-Mystere IV.

 

I have looked at it from these angles:

-- Nationalization -- Bloch was absorbed by SNCASO 1937, and Dassault was a new company 1947+.  A look at factory locations, many of which were simply reused, confirms this.

-- Subcontracting -- aircraft and aircraft parts built and/or assembled by different companies at different factories.  Ouragan forward fuselage was actually made at old Dewoitine factory, for example.

-- Designer -- the Bloch 150-157 series of aircraft, and Dassault Ouragan-Mystere IV, were not designed by Marcel Bloch/Dassault (he was not a designer).  The apex of Bloch fighters, the 157 by Lucien Servanty (designer), was a modification of 152, itself a modification of 150/151 (Maurice Roussel).  Servanty went on to develop the SNCASO SO.6000 Triton (first French jet to fly, but crude and unarmed), as well as the SNCASO SO.6020 Espadon.

-- practicality -- a singular line of Bloch to Dassault aircraft would not be possible in any case based on aircraft and modules identified; it would have to pull from other potential lines, at approximately tier VI and VIII.

 

Overlooking all of the above, the strongest case for Bloch-to-Dassault continuity, in my opinion, would be to say that Bloch 157 and Dassault Ouragan fulfill the same or similar role, or that they have similar designs or flight characteristics.  I don't think there is any evidence to support that.  Do you agree?


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Trophy_Wench #133 Posted 08 May 2018 - 05:29 PM

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Jelly, is the Ouragan really a tier 8? Based on where a lot of the early jets stack up, I'd have put it at tier 9 and have had just the Mystere II as the 10. But then again, would there be any suitable alternatives to drop into tier 8 were that to happen?

J311yfish #134 Posted 09 May 2018 - 02:32 AM

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View PostTrophy_Wench, on 08 May 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

Jelly, is the Ouragan really a tier 8? Based on where a lot of the early jets stack up, I'd have put it at tier 9 and have had just the Mystere II as the 10. But then again, would there be any suitable alternatives to drop into tier 8 were that to happen?

 

The short answer is that there are very few options available without resorting to high fiction (fictional engine development and/or fictional armament).  I have accounted for them here.

 

The longer answer is that resorting to high fiction may not even be necessary.  Yes, the Rolls-Royce Nene has been characterized as a Tier IX engine in the Supermarine Attacker; yet this does not account for the tier designation of Airframe or Armament.  It could be that, though the engine is tier IX, the airframe and armament might both be VIII, and therefore enough to warrant keeping the aircraft at VIII.  There are examples in-game of aircraft having engine modules a tier above or below the tier of the overall aircraft.  Also, the prototype and pre-production Ouragans appear to be weak on armament.  The first armed prototype flew with 4x15mm; and later versions flew with 2x20mm, 4x20mm, and 2x30mm.

 

There is more that could be said.  If Ouragan is truly considered to be IX, then SE.580 could be a good choice at VIII from the earlier Dewoitine fighters.


Edited by J311yfish, 09 May 2018 - 02:33 AM.

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jack_wdw #135 Posted 09 May 2018 - 10:04 AM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 08 May 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

 

It is true that Marcel Bloch and Marcel Dassault are the same person (industrialist), but beyond that there is nothing (as far as I can tell) that can reasonably bind the Bloch 150-157 series to Dassault Ouragan-Mystere IV.

 

I have looked at it from these angles:

-- Nationalization -- Bloch was absorbed by SNCASO 1937, and Dassault was a new company 1947+.  A look at factory locations, many of which were simply reused, confirms this.

-- Subcontracting -- aircraft and aircraft parts built and/or assembled by different companies at different factories.  Ouragan forward fuselage was actually made at old Dewoitine factory, for example.

-- Designer -- the Bloch 150-157 series of aircraft, and Dassault Ouragan-Mystere IV, were not designed by Marcel Bloch/Dassault (he was not a designer).  The apex of Bloch fighters, the 157 by Lucien Servanty (designer), was a modification of 152, itself a modification of 150/151 (Maurice Roussel).  Servanty went on to develop the SNCASO SO.6000 Triton (first French jet to fly, but crude and unarmed), as well as the SNCASO SO.6020 Espadon.

-- practicality -- a singular line of Bloch to Dassault aircraft would not be possible in any case based on aircraft and modules identified; it would have to pull from other potential lines, at approximately tier VI and VIII.

 

Overlooking all of the above, the strongest case for Bloch-to-Dassault continuity, in my opinion, would be to say that Bloch 157 and Dassault Ouragan fulfill the same or similar role, or that they have similar designs or flight characteristics.  I don't think there is any evidence to support that.  Do you agree?

I do appreciate all the effort you put in these lines, but regarding the french line i have a different opinion.
 

I still think the Bloch line should go over in the Dassault line.

Not only because Marcel Bloch and Marcel dassault are one and the same person, but i would make it a multirole-line instead of a light fighter line. ((cfr us thunderbolt line)
Tier IX and X Dassault Ouragan and Mystere are also fighter bombers.

There might be discussion about the Bloch fighter-line, which were rather intended as interceptors than fighter-bombers, but P-47 Thunderbolts also only materialized later in the war as a fighter bomber.
P-35, P-43, XP-44 and early thunderbolts were meant as interceptors just the same as the Bloch 150 family.

I would do it like this:

Light Fighters:

 

Tier I: Nieuport 62

Tier II: Morane-Saulnier M.S.225

Tier III: Dewoitine D.500/501/503/510
Tier IV Morane-Saulnier MS.406

Tier V  Dewoitine D520/521/522
Tier VI Dewoitine D530/D551/D552
Tier VII SNCASE SE520Z (same engine as D552, improved armament)

Tier VIII SNCASE SE.580
Tier IX Nord 2200
Tier X 
Sud-Ouest S.O.6026

 

 

Multirole Fighters:


Starting from Tier IV
 

Tier IV Bloch Mb150/151

Tier V  Bloch MB.152/155

Tier VI Bloch  MB.700/720 (but maybe a better fit would be to uptier the Bloch Mb.155, because the MB.700 is a actually new airframe with a lighter engine but better performance and same armament compared to the Tier V Mb.152)
Tier VII Bloch MB.156/157

Tier VIII SNCASO SO.8000 Narval
Tier IX: Dassault Ouragan
Tier X: Dassault Mystere
 


Edited by jack_wdw, 09 May 2018 - 01:47 PM.


J311yfish #136 Posted 09 May 2018 - 10:42 PM

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I appreciate the dialogue.  That is how these things get better.  I have some questions and thoughts for you, if I may:

 

View Postjack_wdw, on 09 May 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

Light Fighters:

 

Tier I: Nieuport 62

Tier II: Morane-Saulnier M.S.225

Tier III: Dewoitine D.500/501/503/510
Tier IV Morane-Saulnier MS.406
Tier V  Dewoitine D520/521/522
Tier VI Dewoitine D530/D551/D552
Tier VII SNCASE SE520Z (same engine as D552, improved armament)
Tier VIII SNCASE SE.580
Tier IX Nord 2200
Tier X 
Sud-Ouest S.O.6026

 

II -- MS.225 -- a parasol fighter for which the French and Polish were known; yet deviates from the rest of the line by way of a radial engine.  Are you okay with that?  If so, why MS.225 over Dewoitine D.371-376, which is also a radial?

III -- D.500 -- moved to tier 3 as the basis for D.510, okay.  Do you consider the P-26 at tier II to be a good reference, or a bad reference?  One source compares their features directly, and considers the D.500 to be the slightly more ambitious forward-looking design; but does that warrant tier III?  Also, the first engine for D.500 is the same as that for SPAD.510, in-game designated tier II.

VIII -- SE.580 --  would you still use this as a bridge to Grognard (twin-engine with dorsal air intake)? Why or why not?

IX -- Nord 2200 -- How do you determine Nord 2200 over SNCAC NC.1080 and Arsenal VG-90?  All 3 prototypes were evaluated and rejected for carrier strike role; all 3 used the Nene; all 3 to have similar armament to meet the spec.

X -- SO.6026 -- If Espadon is to be tier X only, okay; how do you choose 6026 over, say, 6021?  The 6025 exceeded mach 1 in level flight (not that I'm complaining!  There needs to be an incentive to reach and play tier X after all).

 

View Postjack_wdw, on 09 May 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

Multirole Fighters:


Tier IV Bloch Mb150/151

Tier V  Bloch MB.152/155

Tier VI Bloch  MB.700/720 (but maybe a better fit would be to uptier the Bloch Mb.155, because the MB.700 is a actually new airframe with a lighter engine but better performance and same armament compared to the Tier V Mb.152)
Tier VII Bloch MB.156/157
Tier VIII SNCASO SO.8000 Narval
Tier IX: Dassault Ouragan
Tier X: Dassault Mystere
 

 

P-47esque durability with wing-mounted cannons, okay.  Add bombs, okay.

 

V -- MB.155 -- if up-tiered to VI, would rely on Airframe durability, streamlining, and Armament options to achieve it ("the first French production fighter to feature belt-fed cannon and an armored windshield [40mm Triplex glass].")

VI -- MB.700 -- a home-grown fighter built from non-strategic materials with a tier IV/V engine (as indicated by HS 129B); resembles FFVS J 22 for Sweden, Commonwealth Boomerang in-game tier V, and VL Myrsky for Finland.  All 4 are comparable, so perhaps MB.700 should be tier V.  Also comparable to Roussel 30 (designed by brother of MB.150 designer).

VIII -- SO.8000 Narval -- I know there are not many choices available, but what is the basis for going from Narval (6x20mm) to Ouragan (4x15mm, 2x20mm, 4x20mm, and 2x30mm)?  Would it not make more sense to go to Espadon (6x20mm)?  Or, on the basis of twin-boom architecture and carrier-borne strike role, would use of the Mistral (French development of Vampire) and Aquilon (French development of Sea Venom) be permissible?

 

Now, not to leap forward into the realm of fiction, but here are some other things to consider:

 

-- Grumman F6F Hellcat and De Havilland Vampire are both conspicuously absent from the game, and both happened to serve with France. Is that a coincidence, or are they being deliberately withheld for use there?  Hellcat would be tier VI approx., and Vampire tier VIII approx.  That would certainly be convenient given the challenges identified here for France.

-- Would a tree for France be based on the current/known historical timeline, or based on an alternate timeline (as for Germany and Japan), looking forward from prior to the fall of France? If alternate timeline, then a very wide creative license would be granted to developers to create something new and interesting, while still being uniquely "French".  Ramjets are just one example.  More could be said about this but I'll stop there.


Edited by J311yfish, 09 May 2018 - 10:58 PM.

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J311yfish #137 Posted 10 May 2018 - 07:33 AM

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Bugatti

-- "The well-known automobile designer, Bugatti, is reported to have completed the design, in France, of an almost flat double-eight aero-engine of 1,500hp.  The cylinders are of cast light alloy with steel liners and the engine has overhead camshafts and a centrifugal blower. Reduction gearing, permitting the driving of 1 or 2 airscrews, is provided. Frontal area is said to be very low and the engine is suitable for mounting in wing or fuselage. The output of 1,500 hp is obtained at 3,000 rpm and a dry weight of 1 lb per hp is claimed." (Flight 01/04/1940 p.8)

-- "Before the fall of France, it was known that the French had a number of new engines in preparation, including a liquid-cooled 24-cylinder multi-bank (6 banks of 4 cylinders). There was also the opposed 16-cylinder liquid-cooled Bugatti engine reputedly suitable for wing-submerged installations.  Recently, the design of the Hispano-Suiza V-12 engine has been brought up to date and the power stepped up to 1,500 hp; a further increased of power to 2,000 hp is anticipated for this engine, which has a displacement of 36.07 liters. The H-24-cylinder liquid-cooled Hispano of 72.14 liters originally rated at 2,400 hp may be increased to nearly 4,000 hp within the next few years." (Flight 05/07/1942 p.450)

-- [Note: this would presumably be for the Bugatti 110P fighter project]

 

 


 

 

Hispano-Suiza 12B -- post-war continuation of Hispano-Suiza 12Z for up to 2200hp -- this is a way to bring Dewoitine to Tier VIII

https://www.flightgl...949 - 1397.html

https://www.flightgl...949 - 1398.html

https://www.flightgl...949 - 0802.html (2nd paragraph on left)

-- "The war interrupted design of the 12B, but this ran in 1945 and emerged in several forms in 1947 with ratings up to 2,200hp.  Still using the 150 x 170 mm cylinders, the 12B was mechanically a completely different and much stronger engine, but it was too late." (Gunston, 101)

 

 


 

 

SNECMA 14U -- post-war continuation of Gnome-Rhone 14R -- this is a way to bring Bloch to Tier VIII

https://www.flightgl...949 - 0802.html (4th paragraph from bottom, on left)

-- "The 14K was progressively developed until 1953, via the extremely important 14N family of 900-1,100 hp of 1935-1950, the 1,500-1,600hp 14R of 1939-1950 and the post war 14U of 2,200 hp. In 1945 the company [Gnome-Rhone] vanished into the nationalized group SNECMA, and the final member of the family was the 1,600 hp SNECMA R.210.  Small numbers were made of the L-series, with stroke increased to 185 mm, the 14L being a 1,400 hp unit and the 18L a giant 56-liter engine of 1,900 hp, both dropped in 1939.  Far more important was the attractive 14M Mars series, with smaller cylinders 122 x116 mm, capacity 18.98 liters.  The Mars was only 0.95mm in diameter at first, later versions being about 1 m, and this helped it gain many applications in 1936-1943 at ratings from 600 to 710 hp at 3,100 rpm [used in the Hs 129B, Bloch MB.700, Roussel 30].  SNECMA later developed these engines into the 14X with output up to 820hp at 3,400 rpm, an exceptionally high speed for a large radial." (Gunston, 92)

 

 


 

 

Hispano-Suiza jet engines

-- "In 1946 Hispano-Suiza obtained a license for the Rolls-Royce Nene turbojet, and large numbers were made of the Mks 101, 102, 104 and 105, as well as prototypes of the afterburning Mk 102B.  Hispano itself developed the [Hispano-Suiza] R.300 with increased airflow and hollow air-cooled turbine stators, rated at 2,700kg.  This was dropped in 1951 in favor of a license for the [Rolls-Royce] Tay of 2,850kg thrust; the afterburning 250R of 3,850kg thrust remained a prototype. The final derived engine was the Verdon 350, first flown in a Mystere in [08/1953], in which further increases in mass flow, rpm and temperature increased thrust to 3,500kg at 11,100 rpm, weight being 935 kg.  The company participated in the [Rolls-Royce] Avon installations in the Caravelle airliner and Dassault fighters, and in 1954 designed a small axial turbojet, the [Hispano-Suiza] R.800, for light fighters.  Rated at 1,800kg at 12,200 rpm, this had a 7-stage compressor, diameter of 692mm and weight of 303kg.  It was dropped in early 1956.  Hispano-Suiza then diversified, later engine work including production, for SEP of the SEPR 844 rocket for the Mirage III, and license-assembly and participation in manufacture of the [Rolls-Royce] Tyne." (Gunston, 101-102)

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 26 May 2018 - 11:46 AM.

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jack_wdw #138 Posted 10 May 2018 - 10:52 AM

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My excuses it was something i put out really quickly at work yesterday.

I have revised a couple of planes regarding your comments.

 

                                                                                                             

TIER

Light Fighters

Multirole Fighters

Premium Light Fighters

1

Nieuport 62

N/A

 

2

Dewoitine D.27

Loire 41/43/45

Morane-Saulnier MS.225, Spad S510

3

Dewoitine D.500/501/503/510

Loire 46

 

4

Morane Saulnier MS.405/406

Bloch MB.150/151

Caudron Cr.714

5

Dewoitine D.520/521/522

Bloch MB.152

Bloch Mb.700, Arsenal VG.33,  Potez.230, Arsenal-Delanne AD10, Morane-Saulnier MS.410, Bugatti 110P

6

Dewoitine D.530/551/552

Bloch MB.155

Arsenal VG39

7

SNCASE SE.520Z

Bloch MB.156/157

 

8

SNCASE SE.580

Bloch MB.158/159

 

9

SNCASE SE.535 Mistral (license built vampire)

Dassault Ouragan

 

 

10

SNCASE SE.5000 Baroudeur

Dassault Mystere

 



Tier revisions:


Tier II: I replaced light fighter tier II MS.225 with the Dewoitine D.27. It is a parasol fighter powered by an inline Hispano-Suiza 12Mc engine delivering the same HP as the GR9K radial as fitted in the MS.225, all other specs are more or less the same. The Hispano-Suiza 12Mc engine is an engine upgrade of the first tier Nieuport 62.
I've also marked the start of the multirole fighter in this tier with the Loire 41/43/45. They mark the switch to a radial line powered by Gnome-Rhone engines and gradually with heavier firepower. The Loire 41 starts with the Hispano Suiza 12Mc, as used in the Nieuport 62, then they shift to radial engines.
MS.225 can be a premium.
I don't agree with the p-26 as a good reference for tier II. I consider the p-26 actually more a tier III plane since it was considered marginally faster than the I-16(e) which is a tier III plane ingame.
Tier III: I've added the Loire 46 parasol fighter to the multirole line. It has an early version of the GR.14 engine which makes it a better stepping stone to the bloch MB.15x series.
Tier IV: no changes
Tier V: removed MB.155 from this tier
Tier VI: uptiered MB.155 (faster, better armed and longer range than MB.152) instead of MB.700. MB.700 will be a Tier V premium (comparable to British Venom)
Tier VII: MB.156/157 (MB.155 with 1600HP GR14R engine)
Tier VIII: Replaced Narval with MB.158/159 (largely fictional aircraft - see ref - based on MB.155 with a GR14U engine evolving to 4-row Snecma 28T1 engine with two counter rotating props(GR15D), 4*20MM cannons, bubble canopy  comparable to the F2G or XP-72) 
Tier IX: replace Nord 2200 with SNCASE Mistral (license built vampire)
Tier X: replace SO.6023 with SNCASE Baroudeur

I choose the SE.580 to continue the Dewoitine line in tier VIII. Dewoitine was merged into SNCASE and the SE.580 was designed mainly by Dewoitine engineers. At the time it could have been the pinnacle of french piston engined fighter design, but jet technology rendered it obsolete before it could really materialize. I think it would be a good fit compared with I-250 and La-9 which basically also have two engines.
I've chosen to continue this tree with SNCASE planes.

I chose to remove the Narval at Tier VIII for the multiroles and replace it with the largely fictional Bloch MB..158/159.
My first opinion to put the Narval there was based on the merging of Bloch into SNCASO, but you're right, it doesn't make sense.
The Narval was also engineered by former LeO engineers, instead of Bloch engineers.
The Narval maybe has a place as a tier VII multirole premium? (compared to the japanese J4M?)



 

References:
https://clausuchroni...g/bloch-mb-159/

http://www.stardestr... la Air OOB.htm







 


Edited by jack_wdw, 10 May 2018 - 01:37 PM.


J311yfish #139 Posted 11 May 2018 - 01:17 PM

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A close look at P-26 (tier 2) and Breda Ba.27M (tier 3) may be a good way to verify D.500-510.
 
D.27 has a potential chronology issue, if first flight dates are a prime metric.  Exceptions have been made (in-game) according to (presumably) when the design was initiated (Ex: IL-40P), but if it can be safeguarded then it probably should be.
 
Still very curious about the potential for Vampire showing up in France.  Note that, with the Nene being a tier IX engine, and the French having upgraded to it from Goblin, that Goblin engine could be VIII, and Vampire VIII.  Meteor (tier 7) is also a good indicator.

Edited by J311yfish, 11 May 2018 - 06:46 PM.

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jack_wdw #140 Posted 11 May 2018 - 01:54 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 11 May 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

A close look at P-26 (tier 2) and Breda Ba.27M (tier 3) may be a good way to verify D.500-510.
 
D.27 has a potential chronology issue, if first flight dates are a prime metric.  Exceptions have been made (in-game) according to (presumably) when the design was initiated, but if it can be safeguarded then it probably should be.
Still very curious about the potential for Vampire showing up in France.  Note that, with the Nene being a tier IX engine, and the French having upgraded to it from Goblin, that Goblin engine could be VIII, and Vampire VIII (also in-game Meteor VII).
 

 

Yeah i only added the D.27 there, because of the parasol wing and the inline engine, otherwise an airplane with radial would feature there.
D.535 (Variant of D.27) would provide the continuity to the next line with the Hispano-Suiza 12Xbrs engine, which is the stock engine for the D.500.
In my opinion D.500 and D.510 should be in the same tier, there was so little time and so little difference between these planes (200HP engine upgrade) that you can't really call it a new design. I would suggest the d.501 as an airframe upgrade to host the cannon upgrade, and offer the Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs(D.501) and 12Ycrs(D.510) as possible engine upgrades.

I think the french vampire (with Nene: 61% more thrust than Goblin) should be tier IX. The British one with the Goblin could/should indeed be a Tier VIII. The Meteor F.1 is in the right place at tier VII , because it is powered by R&R Wellands, which really have a weak thrust.

Edited by jack_wdw, 11 May 2018 - 02:03 PM.





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