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[spoiler] what the Swedish tech tree could look like

Saab Sweden Swedish tech tree neutral Svenska Aero Sparmann Hawker Heinkel

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hyghlandr #21 Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:51 PM

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My wife is Swedish shes so looking forward to the Swedish line. but she suggests the Saab 35  Draken for the tier 10.  It was one of Swedens Orignal jet fighters.

Carl_the_Cuttlefish #22 Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:50 PM

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That's really kinda cool that they almost have their own Swedish line. I would think this line would be considered after the italian and french line, but before the brazilian, indian, and finnish line.

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J311yfish #23 Posted 24 September 2014 - 01:40 AM

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View PostGarlicPudding, on 22 September 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I'd pay good money for this to be a reality--the uniqueness alone of having a roster for Swedish aircraft is a great draw.

Plus, I have a..."thing" for pusher-driven planes, so the Saab 21 is a warbird I'd LOVE to have in the game.


Hope this project is still alive!

 

I am working on a major revision and hope to have it refined over the next few weeks.  The tree that you see above was one of my first attempts and it is very crude with respect to chronology, historical narrative, and technology.

 

View Posthyghlandr, on 22 September 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

My wife is Swedish shes so looking forward to the Swedish line. but she suggests the Saab 35  Draken for the tier 10.  It was one of Swedens Orignal jet fighters.

 

It's an awesome aircraft but unfortunately it is way beyond the established parameters of the game (speed + timeline).  Perhaps the Lilldraken (double-delta research aircraft leading to Draken) could be viable as a premium if they are willing to give it armament.


Edited by J311yfish, 24 September 2014 - 02:06 AM.

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truemush #24 Posted 24 September 2014 - 03:28 AM

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View Posthyghlandr, on 22 September 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

My wife is Swedish shes so looking forward to the Swedish line. but she suggests the Saab 35  Draken for the tier 10.  It was one of Swedens Orignal jet fighters.

 

I'm half Swedish and I'd love to see this country planes in-game for sure! I'd totally elite every plane in the line in less then a month! :medal::playing:

J311yfish #25 Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:22 PM

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"Multi-role" designation really helps Sweden because that is exactly what their "attack line" is.  Anyway this needs an update.

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J311yfish #26 Posted 04 December 2014 - 09:44 PM

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thread bump to keep out of archive

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J311yfish #27 Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:15 AM

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bump to keep out of archive!  update in progress

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J311yfish #28 Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:09 PM

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Sweden 2.00 update

 

The Swedish technology tree has been considerably improved based on the introduction of the "Multirole" aircraft category.

 

Quick overview

 

Tier I

-- The first fighter of the Swedish Air Force is the Jaktfalken.  It was developed as a private venture and entered service 01/1930.  The company was founded by Carl Clemens Bücker, who had previous experience building aircraft of Heinkel design.  He hired Sven Blomberg to be his chief designer, and returned to Germany in 1932.  Bücker's company was purchased by another and retained Sven Blomberg as general manager.  Blomberg would later establish liaison with the De Havilland company in the United Kingdom (as early as 06/1935) and would go on to be the general manager of their regional office in Stockholm (03/1946), representing their interests in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark.  The relationship with De Havilland becomes important later with the development of jet engines.  It is also interesting to note that the J 21 and De Havilland Vampire have coinciding development timelines.  If the current trend for Tier I aircraft holds true, then the Jaktfalken would be considered to be a Multirole fighter.

 

Tier II

-- Björn Bjuggren was a Swedish Air Force officer that advocated the procurement of a multirole aircraft (function as a fighter, bomber, and reconnaissance) in order to reduce costs.  The Hawker Hart (a relative of the Hawker Demon currently in-game) designed by Sydney Camm was demonstrated in Sweden as early as 1932.  A license for manufacture was negotiated and Sweden began production of the Hawker Hart, as well as a navalized version of the Hart called the Osprey.  The Hart and Osprey were able to be equipped with wheels, skis, or floats, and were to serve in a reconnaissance role, yet it was found to be highly capable as a dive bomber.  This is important because it leads to the development of the Saab 'toss' mechanical computer bombsight that automates shallow (20-30º) dive bombing with precision, rendering steep dive bombing unnecessary.  It is one of the defining characteristics of Swedish development and is found all the way from Saab 17 (tier IV) to Saab 32 (tier X).  The Hart and Osprey differ from the Demon in part because they are powered by air-cooled radials (Bristol Mercury produced under license) rather than liquid-cooled inline engines.

-- Edmund Sparmann proposed a fighter for the Swedish Air Force, but was denied in part because he lacked production capability and the prevailing political climate was not one that favored competition.  The Swedish government instead purchased Gloster Gladiator fighters, many of which would be used for the mutual defense of Finland.

 

Tier III

-- In late 1935 arctic explorer Lincoln Ellsworth flew across Antarctica in a Northrop Gamma 2B, designed by Jack Northrop.  The Gamma 2B was able to be equipped with wheels, skis, or floats.  It was a prolific design and inspired many adaptations.  In 1937, Sweden obtained a license for manufacture of the Northrop 8A-1, an export version of the A-17 dive bomber derived from the Gamma.  The same year, turmoil at Northrop (a Douglas subsidiary) led to an employee strike, and eventually dissolution as the company was taken over by Douglas.  Jack Northrop would go on to re-form the Northrop company in 1939, but in the interim, many talented American engineers were recruited by Sweden to assist in the manufacture of the Northrop 8A-1.  They would go on to assist with the development of the Saab 17 before being recalled to the United States at the outbreak of World War II.

 

Tier IV

-- Like its forerunner, the Saab 17 was developed to be a multirole aircraft designed from the outset with dive bombing in mind.  It was the first all-metal stressed-skin aircraft designed in Sweden, and Saab's first true product.  It was able to be equipped with retractable wheels, retractable skis, or floats.  Design began late in 1938, but the first flight did not occur until May 1939, approximately 9 months into the war.  The secret development of the Saab bombsight mentioned previously was first tested on the Saab 17.  

-- As development continued, Sweden looked with urgency to acquire fighters for defense.  They hoped to acquire the Seversky-Republic EP-1 fighter, an export version of the P-35, as well as a two-seat variant the 2 P-A, and Vultee Vanguard fighters, and licensed production of the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp.  The order was denied by the U.S. government, in part due to fear that the equipment might be seized by the Germans.  Sweden turned to Italy and purchased some obsolete Fiat CR.42 biplane fighters, powered by a Fiat derivative of the Twin Wasp.  Sweden also purchased from Italy the Reggiane Re.2000 designed by Longhi who had previously worked at Seversky.  The Re.2000 design was an imitation of the Seversky P-35 with some aerodynamic improvement.  Sweden also placed an order for the Fokker G.I heavy fighter, but the order was not filled due to the rapid occupation of the Netherlands by the Germans.  Swedish designer Bo Lundberg, at that time working for Vultee in the United States, developed a plan for Sweden to have a native fighter despite limited material and means.  The result was the FFVS J 22, later powered by a reverse-engineered copy of the Twin Wasp.

 

Tier V

-- At this point Sweden's lack of capable engines becomes clear and they have to rely on a twin-engine aircraft to achieve greater speed.  The Saab 18 was (again) designed with dive bombing and strategic reconnaissance in mind,  and continued the use of the Saab mechanical computer bombsight.  Plans to use the Bristol Taurus engine fell through, as well as a negotiation with Germany for licensed production of the Daimler Benz DB601.  The Saab 18 was the first Swedish aircraft to carry radar, the American AN/APS-4 radar (also used by Curtiss Helldiver and Grumman Avenger).  It continued to serve in that reconnaissance capacity until eclipsed in avionics by the Saab 32 Lansen.

 

Tier VI

-- The Germans finally allowed licensed production of the Daimler Benz DB605 engine.  The Saab 18 was modified to use them and flew 06/1944.  The Saab 18 was modified further to have a 57mm cannon mounted in the nose, in addition to its ability to carry bombs and torpedoes.  It was also the first Swedish aircraft to carry rockets, which were then also given to the Saab 17.  Saab 18 was also used to test experimental anti-ship missiles which were later used by Saab 32.

 

Tier VII

-- Development of the Saab 21 paralleled the development of the De Havilland Vampire (both of which trailed the Fokker G.I), though the Saab 21 used the DB605 engine in a pusher configuration first, and was later adapted to use a De Havilland jet engine.  Doubts were expressed in development about its unorthodox design but it proved to be a robust and well liked, with good visibility and low-level characteristics.  A Rolls-Royce Griffon engine was proposed as an upgrade but Saab elected to instead convert the Saab 21 to jet power with the arrival of the De Havilland Goblin.   Saab 21 continued use of the mechanical computer bombsight, but from this point on aircraft are designated with an "A" for Attack rather than simply "B" for Bomber -- this is perhaps due to the added employment of rockets and elimination of the necessity for steep dives.

 

Tier VIII

-- The Saab 21 was re-engined with a De Havilland Goblin engine and re-designated Saab 21R.  The De Havilland engines were then produced under license, while native Swedish jet research continued.  The Saab 21R armament was augmented with a belly-mounted gunpod, for a total of 13 guns, and retained the ability to equip rockets like its predecessor.  In comparison to the De Havilland Vampire expected to reside at the same tier (not yet in-game), the Saab 21R is slower but carries a greater armament.

 

Tier IX

-- The Saab 29 Tunaan ("Flying Barrel") was the first West European jet fighter to have swept wings, an all-movable tail plane, automatic leading-edge slats,  full-span ailerons/flaps, De Havilland Ghost in a single-engine configuration, and a new Saab ejection seat.  It put Saab at the forefront of fighter aircraft development and boasted a considerable array of attack weaponry.  Later variants featured a Swedish-designed afterburner for a 25% increase in thrust, and modified outer wing to raise the critical mach number from 0.86 to 0.89.

 

Tier X

-- The Saab 32 Lansen ("Lance") was developed to replace all existing attack, reconnaissance, and night fighter aircraft.  It was planned to use a Swedish jet engine (STAL Dovern II) that rivaled the Rolls-Royce Avon (currently in-game for Tier X, Supermarine Swift), but due to budget constraints it was decided to instead produce the Avon under license.  The Lansen was a formidable strike fighter and finally broke the sound barrier in 1953 while in a shallow dive.  The iconic Saab 35 Draken double-delta, while awesome and interesting, is supersonic and currently beyond the scope of the game.

 

Conclusion

Anyway that's an overview.  The primary line is Multirole.  A second line of Fighters might be possible, but it would be composed primarily of imported aircraft, and not necessarily indicative of any overarching theme.  It would also be at the expense of having those aircraft show up in their native countries.  There are several other discontinued Saab designs but stringing them together in a separate fashion is also somewhat illogical (divorced from narrative) and does not appear to provide much value.  It would be more appropriate, I think, to withhold them as premiums, with possible exception for the FFVS J 22.

 

If due to chronological constraints the Saab 32 is somehow considered to be out of bounds (it shouldn't, based on IL-40P's development timeline), then there are some interesting undeveloped Saab jet projects (pre-Lansen or pre-Draken) that could make interesting alternatives for Tier X -- more on those later.

 

 

Further refinement

-- details for undeveloped Saab jet projects.

-- details for imported aircraft on the off-chance that they might be used as premiums.

-- the possibility of combining with Finland due to their mutual defense.

 


Edited by J311yfish, 12 July 2015 - 04:15 PM.

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spittoon #29 Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:23 PM

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great job researching all those planes!

 

I'm of long-ago Welsh ancestry, so maybe there was a ww2 plane built in Wales?  

 

(long-ago enough to where the Welsh portion has been bred out of me, i hope)


 

 

honoring all those who fought, and especially all those who fell


J311yfish #30 Posted 19 July 2015 - 06:33 PM

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Airfoils

-- this is just another way to look at data

-- source -- unverified information

 

Tier Aircraft Wing Root / Wing Tip
I Jaktfalken  
II

Hawker Hart

Sparmann E4

RAF 28 ? / RAF 28 ?

 

III Northrop 8A-1 NACA 2215 / NACA 2209 (Northrop A-17)
IV

Saab 17

NACA 0012 / NACA 0010 (source)

V

Saab 18

FFVS J 22

 

NACA 23015 / NACA 23010

VI

Saab 18

 

VII

Saab 21

Saab laminar / Saab laminar

VIII

Saab 21R

 

IX

Saab 29

 

X

Saab 32

NACA 64A010 / NACA 64A010 *

*same airfoil found on Grumman F9F, Republic F-84F, others.

 


Edited by J311yfish, 19 July 2015 - 07:43 PM.

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J311yfish #31 Posted 16 November 2015 - 11:20 PM

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Secret Saab projects, from Air Enthusiast No.90 (Nov/Dec 2000):

 

Project 1100 (spring 1948) -- "...defined as a two-seat ground attack aircraft with some fighter capability (including radar), a top speed of Mach 0.9 and armament of four 3/4in (20mm) cannon, two 1,100lb (500kg) bombs, 12x6in (15cm) rocket projectiles or a single Rb 303 missile.  Type 1100 itself was fairly similar to the 1119 below, but had a low wing." (Buttler, 15)

 

Project 1108 (05/1948) -- "... moved the wings above the intakes to provide space for a one tone (1,016 kg) 'automatic' rocket launcher enclosed within the body beneath the spar.  The weapon was manufactured by Bofors and fired 12x7in (18cm) rockets from a three barrel magazine.  The 1108 was developed into the Type 1114 before culminating in Project 1119 in mid-1948." (Buttler, 15)

 

Project 1119 (mid 1948) -- "... featured a swept shoulder wing placed higher than the 1100 to make room for an internal weapon bay or 'rocket ammunition box'.  Four cannon were placed beneath the two-seat cockpit and the engines were fed by relatively small and simple side fuselage intakes.  This became the most favored layout at Saab, and in July [07/1948] the firm was authorized to proceed with it.  Almost all the effort went towards the twin Ghost machine (the 1119B), but a version did appear with two STAL Dovern engines (called 1119A). // At over 50 in (127cm) diameter, the centrifugal Ghost was too fat for a military engine, prolonged studies having showed that the 1119 was just too large, complex and expensive, and its width restricted top speed to Mach 0.88.  Worked stopped in October [10/1948], and was substituted by an alternative proposal called the 1150." (Buttler, 15)

 

Project 1150 (1947+) -- "This was powered by a single slim axial-flow engine unit, new studies having revealed that one powerful engine instead of two medium thrust units offered a more modern and economical aircraft than the 1119, along with a better performance.  The 11150 lacked the 1119's internal weapons bay, but was a smaller and altogether a more straightforward design.  Design work on the 1150 had, in fact, been under way since early 1947. // Prior to this, British turbojets had featured strongly in Swedish jet aircraft, but in 1947 support was given to the development of two new experimental home-grown units.  SFA was responsible for a centrifugal compressor type called R201 while STAL proceeded with an axial flow engine called the Dovern, first bench-tested in [02/1950].  Late that year, encouraged by the Air Force, the companies began their co-operation on the Dovern, and when the Dovern II (Swedish designation RM4) was prepared for series production, it offered a maximum static thrust of 7,275 lb (32.3kN) at 7,200 rpm from a weight of 2,632 lb (1,194 kg). // The Dovern II had a nine-stage compressor with a pressure ratio of 5.2:1 with rotors, blades and casing all in steel.  Nine tubular combustion chambers were manufactured in Nimonic (nickel base alloy) and the single stage turbine disc in H46 steel.  A IIB version had a de-icing system while the IIC was a B equipped with an afterburner.  Availability of this powerful slim 43in (109cm) diameter, 151.5in (385cm) long axial as replacement for the medium thrust units was a critical driving force behind project 1150. // In [06/1951] one of several Dovern test units was first flown in a test bay fitted beneath the fuselage of an Avro Tp 80 Lancaster, the aircraft having been modified in England.  Dovern ground tests were completed in [07/1952] but, despite its promise, there were delays and Rolls-Royce Avon RA.2's were ordered for the Lansen prototypes.  The Air Force finally terminated the Dovern program in [11/1952] and reached agreement with Rolls-Royce for SFA to build that firm's Series 100 Avon under license as the RM5 ... Also abandoned was a large, more powerful and highly advanced two-spool engine called the Glan which was expected to give up to 15,500 lb (68.9 kN) thrust. // On [12/20/1948], Saab received a Phase I order to proceed with Project 1150 project work and construction of a mock-up.  The specification now requested a single-engine two-seat aircraft primarily intended for attack operations against ground and sea targets under all-weather conditions and at night.  At the beginning of 1949, Saab organized its deisgn team and on [10/08/1949] the Royal Swedish Air Board (Flygforvaltningen) gave a full go-ahead for what was now designated Saab 32; the first prototype flew [11/03/1952].  It was later named Lansen (Lance) and proved so successful that the last survivors of over 450 built were only retired in 1996." (Buttler, 15-16)

 

Project 1210 (12/1949) -- "A rocket-powered alternative ... of 24.6 ft (7.50 m) span and a much reduced loaded weight of 19,180 lb (8,700 kg) which offered the capability to reach 49,210 ft (15,000m) altitude in just two minutes." (Buttler, 17)

 

Project 1220 -- "The 18,740 lb (8,500 kg) single seat Project 1220 which was really a more radically modified Type 32 [Lansen] fitted with the most advanced Dovern so far proposed of 9,920 lb (44.1kN) dry and about 13,600lb (60.4kN) with reheat.  The 1220 had two wing tip mounted Type 321 air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and 6,562lb (2,000 kg) of internal fuel; wing area was 301ft2 (28m2) and it was estimated that this aircraft would reach 15,000m in [4:10].  Project 1220 was considered the superior design." (Buttler, 17)

 

Project 1250 (04/1951) pre-Draken -- "The concept of a double delta wing with nose air intake appeared on [02/10/1950], as Project 1250 and Saab christened it the 'Gapande Flundran' or 'Gaping Flatfish'; one version had a small delta T-tail.  By [04/1950], the 1220 and 1250 were the most favored designs, Saab recommending the 1250 since although the 1220 might well be capable of Mach 1 in level flight, it had insufficient internal space for fuel and equipment (details for Projects 1230 and 1240 and how they fit the story are unavailable). // When this arrangement was first drawn, no delta aircraft was in service anywhere in the world, but a strictly logical balancing of the need for space and a small frontal area, combining a relatively thin wing, had led ultimately to consideration of the low aspect ratio double delta.  By putting the engine, pilot and equipment in the fuselage, the size of the engine covered all the rest, which conveniently limited cross-section area.  Similarly, when the intakes, fuel, undercarriage and armament were placed in the wings, the intake frontal area screened them all as well. // The radar was unlikely to be ready before 1951 and a late decision was where to put the intakes and how they would affect the deign.  One option was to use the nose intake and put the radar in a centre-body cone like the British English Electric Lightning; a second introduced side intakes with a conventional scanner inside a nose radome.  The latter method was eventually chosen, with the intakes forming part of the inner wing since it was found that the nose intake created structural problems for housing the antenna. // Further investigations showed that the double delta was not only feasible but actually provided the most effective solution.  Basically, the center section triangle gave least drag at supersonic speeds whilst the delta shape of the outer wings greatly improved flying qualities in the subsonic range and cut down the take-off run.  With the aid of a half-scale aeroplane flown in [01/1952] to test the wing, originally Project 1251 but later Saab 210, it was revealed that the combined delta gave greater stability at low speeds.  The exceptional promise of the double delta was confirmed. // Project 1250 was accepted for full development in early 1952 and a mock-up authorized.  In [04/1952], the Air Force awarded a contract for three prototypes to be called Type 35 and the first of these flew on [10/25/1955].  Over 600 Draken (Dragon) were built in numerous versions; again, the last survivors in the Swedish Air Force service have only recently [as of 12/2000] been withdrawn and the Draken still serves in Austria.  Possibly the only fighter type to employ a wing approaching the Draken's shape was the F-16XL variant of the Fighting Falcon which flew in 1982." (Buttler, 17) // Project 1250 variant // [Project 1250 becomes Saab 35 Draken]

 

Project 1325 03/1954 -- all-purpose fighter/attack aircraft

 

Project 1338 12/1954


Edited by J311yfish, 10 January 2016 - 07:01 PM.

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ArrowZ_ #32 Posted 17 November 2015 - 01:27 AM

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J311yfish #33 Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:05 AM

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A note on aircraft armament in Sweden:

 

"Sweden also used a version of the Browning HMG chambered for the 13.2x99 Hotchkiss round, a similar weapon to the IJN 13mm Type 3.  Known as the m/39A, this was later converted to 12.7x99.  At the other end of the heavy weapon spectrum, Bofors produced the 57mm m/47 airborne anti-shipping gun which was fitted to the SAAB T18B twin-engined attack bomber, but this was a post-war development." (Williams, 180)

 

"The major nations were not the only ones to design new aircraft cannon.  Despite making some use of the HS 404 (known as the m/41) and HS 804 (m/47), Sweden also used Bofors weapons for their initial post-war generations of aircraft.  These short-recoil guns, the m/45 and a modified version, the m/49, were designed around the Hispano's 20x110 ammunition and were fitted to most versions of the SAAB 21 and early jets, until replaced by the 30mm Aden (m/55) in later versions of the A32 Lansen." (Williams, 190)

 

Source:  Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces, by Anthony G. Williams (2000 Airlife):


Edited by J311yfish, 25 July 2016 - 02:02 AM.

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J311yfish #34 Posted 24 July 2016 - 09:32 PM

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"[The Dornier Do 215] ... was just an export variant tested with various engines, the Daimler-Benz DB 601-powered version of which [Do 215B-0] landed an order for 18 from Sweden.  Once the war had begun, an embargo was placed on this export, so the aircraft were accepted by the Luftwaffe.  Dornier was told to continue making the DB 601-powered aircraft in various Do 215B sub-types for bombing and reconnaissance, ending at the 101st aircraft at the beginning of 1941.  In mid-1941 one was modified into a nightfighter with the first version of Lichtenstein airborne radar.  A succession of victories with this aircraft scored by Oblt Ludwig Becker overcame aircrew skepticism of new technology, and opened the way to the Luftwaffe's formidable force of radar-equipped nightfighters, almost all of which were Bf 110s or Ju 88s." (Gunston, 63)
 
Source:  Classic World War II Aircraft Cutaways, by Bill Gunston (1997 Metro Books)
 
If implemented for Sweden, the DB 601-powered Dornier Do 215 would be one way to achieve a smooth transition to the later DB 605-powered Saab 18.
 

Edited by J311yfish, 25 July 2016 - 02:08 AM.

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J311yfish #35 Posted 09 September 2016 - 08:27 PM

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Production values in yellow


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J311yfish #36 Posted 15 January 2017 - 03:56 AM

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Currently on Netflix there is a short documentary called Apex - The Story of the Hypercar, about the development of a high-performance car in Sweden.  The company, Koenigsegg, occupies an old Swedish Air Force base and uses the runways to test their vehicles.  From 19:42 to 22:00 there are closeups of the Saab 35 Draken and some of the squadron emblems, one of which continues to be used by Koenigsegg.


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J311yfish #37 Posted 12 July 2017 - 10:04 PM

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The Luftwaffe in Sweden

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