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It seems all the aircraft are balenced and not too many are over or underpowered.


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Carl_the_Cuttlefish #1 Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

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I have played up to tier VI and I have yet to find planes that are just bad, like the M3 Lee is or AMX 40 is. Most all of them have a certain niche, and if you find it, you can do pretty good in them. Even the british HF line, which has had some of my best games. The only complaint Ive heard is about the 262's in higher tiers.

 

What's your thoughts?


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Cuesta_Rey #2 Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:34 PM

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I think a pilot can learn to use the strengths of any aircraft to his advantage and be competitive with it. However, many don't want to tarnish their stats while chasing the positives and tend more to look at the negatives and abandon an aircraft before the learning curve is completed.

What's also weird is how sometimes a pilot will see a poor win/loss ratio with a particular aircraft even though his kill/be killed ratio is okay. That's happened to me on more than one occasion and it makes me tentative about using it more often. The Yak-1 comes to mind. Even though I have shot down a decent amount of enemies with it and I really like the way it performs, more often than not seem to be on the losing side of the ledger with it. I think a lot of that is because of where it fits (or doesn't fit) in the altitude bands. Early on in a battle, more often than not the decisive dogfights occur at higher altitudes where the Yak-1 cannot perform. Maybe I am wrong about this but that's the way it seems to happen.



Binestar #3 Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:01 PM

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View Postdoublespook, on 14 April 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

I think a pilot can learn to use the strengths of any aircraft to his advantage and be competitive with it. However, many don't want to tarnish their stats while chasing the positives and tend more to look at the negatives and abandon an aircraft before the learning curve is completed.

What's also weird is how sometimes a pilot will see a poor win/loss ratio with a particular aircraft even though his kill/be killed ratio is okay. That's happened to me on more than one occasion and it makes me tentative about using it more often. The Yak-1 comes to mind. Even though I have shot down a decent amount of enemies with it and I really like the way it performs, more often than not seem to be on the losing side of the ledger with it. I think a lot of that is because of where it fits (or doesn't fit) in the altitude bands. Early on in a battle, more often than not the decisive dogfights occur at higher altitudes where the Yak-1 cannot perform. Maybe I am wrong about this but that's the way it seems to happen.

 

You should see my stats in the Spitfire V.  =)

 

From the standpoint of plane balance, I would say with altitude bands and the way energy works in games that any plane that can keep it's energy is inherently better than those who don't.  A plane that can boost out of danger is inherently better than one that can not, which is why you have strong planes in tier like the P-51A, P51-D, Me262, which can all point the nose in the air and boost until out of danger while the planes under you fall out of the sky under you.

 

You then regain your boost by cooling your engines, then dive back down onto the guy who is low on boost from attempting to climb to you.

 

Are the planes relatively balanced per tier?  Sure, they're close, but 1v1 between two good players you'll have the high energy high altitude fighter win the vast majority of the time.

 

There are some wins you will get precisely because of energy as well.  Consider the following, a match has come down to 1v1.  You are ahead on superiority by 1 point and have only 50HP left.  Your enemy also has 50HP left.  If you are in a P-51A vs a Yak-9, you climb away and win 100% of the time.  There is NOTHING the Yak-9 can do to turn the tide of battle.

 

Now reverse it, you have a 1 point disadvantage in superiority, the enemy Yak-9 and yourself both have 50HP left and you have a chance to hunt him down.  So you climb above where AA can hit and start looking for him.  As you suspect he is hiding in a concentration of his own AA trying to win.  At this point I would say it's at worst 50/50 that the P-51A will win, he might get shot by the Yak-9 cannon, he might miss his dive and get killed by AA, or he'll make his run from above, catching the Yak-9 offguard or just out playing him and winning.

 

By being able to outclimb other fighters, you dictate the terms of your matchups.  I have a replay of myself in a Yak-9U in a Tier 8 battle.  I have 3 kills, we're down by 3 superiority, and there is a P-51D 6000 feet above me fighting with a Spitfire out of my range to kill.  I stay low and kill 2 ground targets, getting damaged the entire time.  The Spitfire finally does the right thing and tries to drag the P-51D down and we even it up with  another ground target.

 

I'm at about 25HP, the P-51D is at about 130HP and the Spitfire IX is at about 100HP.  With it even I've finally forced the P-51D to come down low, and the Spitfire finally came down out of the altitude in that time.

 

The P-51D, being smart (I would have played it the same way) dives on me to try and get advantage again.  I nosed up, hit him with a cannon shot, dropped him to 50HP, he kills me with his machineguns and then my second cannon shot that was already in the air finishes off the P-51D.

 

Honestly, I say I win that matchup only 25% of the time at best.

 

 

The TLDR; of this is that it's not planes that are over/under powered, it's the mechanics that they play to that are.  By definition, a plane that can fly higher has more energy, and dogfights are all about energy management.



Zebra21 #4 Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:08 PM

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View PostBinestar, on 14 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

 

You should see my stats in the Spitfire V.  =)

 

From the standpoint of plane balance, I would say with altitude bands and the way energy works in games that any plane that can keep it's energy is inherently better than those who don't.  A plane that can boost out of danger is inherently better than one that can not, which is why you have strong planes in tier like the P-51A, P51-D, Me262, which can all point the nose in the air and boost until out of danger while the planes under you fall out of the sky under you.

 

You then regain your boost by cooling your engines, then dive back down onto the guy who is low on boost from attempting to climb to you.

 

Are the planes relatively balanced per tier?  Sure, they're close, but 1v1 between two good players you'll have the high energy high altitude fighter win the vast majority of the time.

 

There are some wins you will get precisely because of energy as well.  Consider the following, a match has come down to 1v1.  You are ahead on superiority by 1 point and have only 50HP left.  Your enemy also has 50HP left.  If you are in a P-51A vs a Yak-9, you climb away and win 100% of the time.  There is NOTHING the Yak-9 can do to turn the tide of battle.

 

Now reverse it, you have a 1 point disadvantage in superiority, the enemy Yak-9 and yourself both have 50HP left and you have a chance to hunt him down.  So you climb above where AA can hit and start looking for him.  As you suspect he is hiding in a concentration of his own AA trying to win.  At this point I would say it's at worst 50/50 that the P-51A will win, he might get shot by the Yak-9 cannon, he might miss his dive and get killed by AA, or he'll make his run from above, catching the Yak-9 offguard or just out playing him and winning.

 

By being able to outclimb other fighters, you dictate the terms of your matchups.  I have a replay of myself in a Yak-9U in a Tier 8 battle.  I have 3 kills, we're down by 3 superiority, and there is a P-51D 6000 feet above me fighting with a Spitfire out of my range to kill.  I stay low and kill 2 ground targets, getting damaged the entire time.  The Spitfire finally does the right thing and tries to drag the P-51D down and we even it up with  another ground target.

 

I'm at about 25HP, the P-51D is at about 130HP and the Spitfire IX is at about 100HP.  With it even I've finally forced the P-51D to come down low, and the Spitfire finally came down out of the altitude in that time.

 

The P-51D, being smart (I would have played it the same way) dives on me to try and get advantage again.  I nosed up, hit him with a cannon shot, dropped him to 50HP, he kills me with his machineguns and then my second cannon shot that was already in the air finishes off the P-51D.

 

Honestly, I say I win that matchup only 25% of the time at best.

 

 

The TLDR; of this is that it's not planes that are over/under powered, it's the mechanics that they play to that are.  By definition, a plane that can fly higher has more energy, and dogfights are all about energy management.

 

^^^^  This.


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AmericanKestrel #5 Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

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View PostS01836775, on 14 April 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have played up to tier VI and I have yet to find planes that are just bad, like the M3 Lee is or AMX 40 is. Most all of them have a certain niche, and if you find it, you can do pretty good in them. Even the british HF line, which has had some of my best games. The only complaint Ive heard is about the 262's in higher tiers.

 

What's your thoughts?


My thought is that you need to fly a lot more battles.



pyantoryng #6 Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:49 PM

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It's because planes do not bounce like tanks do, that's one thing.

 

 



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Heh #7 Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:52 PM

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There's no bad planes there. Just some that are better than the average planes.

 

And go get an F2G if you want to prove yourself wrong.


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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

SkywhaleExpress #8 Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:02 PM

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Hey! The M3 Lee is the first tank I got more than 5 kills in!!!

 

i would have had 8, but I got a Lucky badge due to enemy Arty killing the last of 3 guys who tried to pin me down. Ended wig 7 though.



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Carl_the_Cuttlefish #9 Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:21 PM

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F2G is in tier VIII. I haven't got there yet :(. Most of the complaints seem to be in tiers VIII through X though. About the p51's you just have to know how to be annoying in the slower, less energetic planes. If you stay 90 degrees below them and fly in odd loops, they have much less success in dive attacks. My yak 7 has been wonderful so far and I have done exceptional in it. Last game i took the last 30% of a dive attacking 109G in my yak.

 

Cluster fighting is the majority of WOWP fighting, and in it, planes like the Mosquito and Yak 7 excel. One on One is actually kind of rarer in my opinion.


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I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


HZero #10 Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:26 PM

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Let's see, for NA server - M3 Lee, 99k battles, 50.3% win rate

 

The closest t4 comparison would be the Bristol 146, 8k battles (much smaller but still not a bad sample size), 54.3% win rate.

 

Taking into account sample size, the only planes that stand out as egregiously OP are the AGO Courier (71.1% WR), the Fw 190 A-5 (63.5% WR), and the 109 B (64.2% WR).  Following hot on their heels are the P-51A (60.6% WR), the Me 410 (60.6% WR), the 109 E (60.4% WR).

 

Only 4 planes have sub 50% WR, and those have very small sample sizes.  The largest is the F2G - 46.9% WR at 2k battles.

 

Source: Noobmeter

 

 


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Binestar #11 Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:28 PM

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While I like noobmeter, it by definition tracks only the people who care about their stats and try to check them.  Thus you get more representation of players with higher skill than the general population.

 

It'd be great if noobmeter imported all the users from the hall of fame, but I don't see it happening any time soon.



HZero #12 Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:32 PM

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I'm not sure I understand.  I thought Noobmeter pulled the API information directly from the server?  As far as I know, there is no "opt-in" for the stats tracking.

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Binestar #13 Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:46 AM

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View PostHZero, on 14 April 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand.  I thought Noobmeter pulled the API information directly from the server?  As far as I know, there is no "opt-in" for the stats tracking.

A player isn't tracked until you out their name in the noobmeter query.  Bad players don't care enough to check their stats



Carl_the_Cuttlefish #14 Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:42 AM

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So the F2G is underpowered? I heard the Ta 152 was too.

 

I do think certain lines are more noob friendly than others though. Spit line is easy for anyone, but brit HF line is rather difficult to learn to be effective in, Yak 7 line as well. Both brit HF and Yak 7 lines though are very capable, they just require deliberate tactics.

 

About the noobmeter, how can every plane be above 50% WR?


Edited by S01836775, 15 April 2014 - 03:43 AM.

"It's about to get real inky in here!!!"

- Carl the Cuttlefish, the artist formerly known as S01836775, now in an all new user friendly format.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


HZero #15 Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:33 AM

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View PostBinestar, on 14 April 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

A player isn't tracked until you out their name in the noobmeter query.  Bad players don't care enough to check their stats

 

Well that's easy enough to fix.  I'll start pulling ten random names from a t3 match every day.  :great:


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Carl_the_Cuttlefish #16 Posted 19 April 2014 - 12:49 AM

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Actually, after playing the mosquito for a while, I think that plane is a little underpowered. Not by much, just a little though. I think the HP boost from the update will help, but maybe adding a little better performance at lower mid altitude would help.

"It's about to get real inky in here!!!"

- Carl the Cuttlefish, the artist formerly known as S01836775, now in an all new user friendly format.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining in my posts 

And why do we balance???


burndaddy02 #17 Posted 24 May 2014 - 08:21 PM

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I tend to agree with the original post. I've played up through Tier VI on different trees, both post-release and back in Open Beta and nothing has been unmanageable. Every plane has strengths and weaknesses. I find it amusing when I take some plane and fly it a lot and love it and do well, scoring kills routinely, then I go onto the forums here and read about how much people hate that plane, and how it needs a buff and so on. I see a lot of that.

 



BuckRodgers #18 Posted 28 May 2014 - 11:20 PM

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The British tiers 2-4 and the Lagg 3(pre buffs, don't know about it currently) are the only planes I didn't feel like they fit a proper role. They we're a bit too jack of all trades where I knew how to fly them. Might be able to correct that if I go back and fly them some more but it was a bit too easy to get through them in a few daily doubles.

oldkye #19 Posted 28 May 2014 - 11:29 PM

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View PostS01836775, on 15 April 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

So the F2G is underpowered? I heard the Ta 152 was too.

 

I do think certain lines are more noob friendly than others though. Spit line is easy for anyone, but brit HF line is rather difficult to learn to be effective in, Yak 7 line as well. Both brit HF and Yak 7 lines though are very capable, they just require deliberate tactics.

 

About the noobmeter, how can every plane be above 50% WR?

 

Ta 152 is not under powered lol it has one of the highest optimal altitudes in game higher even then it's higher tier counterparts if you start with more energy above nothing can beat you it can chase down a Me 262 "and" out turn him it can also beat him in a head on due to having one of the longest gun ranges in game starting at around 1,300 meters out and doing full damage by 1,000 meters as opposed to the Me 262 who has more damage on paper but doesn't start to hit tell 1,000 meters out this means he's half dead before he can shoot you.

 

People need to spend less time on the on paper stats and more time finding strengths and weakness of these planes, we all did the math now we need to test if it's true in combat and since there are many more factors "in" combat we are often wrong lol.



Panzer_In_Checkmate #20 Posted 29 May 2014 - 01:35 AM

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Yeah I'm not sure any aircraft are OP or UP

But WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA, WHOA!

The AMX 40 and M3 Lee are good tanks. Don't insult them. I personally have both and they work just fine.


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