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109 B, need a valid & good reason not to sell it


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Sandman1969 #1 Posted 05 April 2014 - 06:07 PM

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I don't know what's going on, maybe 1.2 just shows that I actually had always sucked in this plane. But ever since 1.2 came out, I cannot for the life of me do well with it any longer.

It matters not, if I have wing guns mounted or just the hub/synchronized guns.

 

Get into a T6 fight & I have to run for my life as everything out turns it.

Hell, I even got beat by a Hawk 75 in it.

 

Sad to think that back in closed beta, I got to 4th overall in it. Now, I struggle to do anything at all with it.

 

So, hit me with what you got....



BrushWolf #2 Posted 05 April 2014 - 06:57 PM

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Just take a break from it. Your defense against the Hawk 75 is speed, he is slower and more maneuverable but you have a 100MPH or so speed advantage, us it. The 109's give my P40 fits, Pick your fights when you can.

I used to have a handle on life until it broke off.

                             

 

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StrawStock #3 Posted 05 April 2014 - 07:14 PM

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One of my favorites, 271 battles 73% WR... But you have to fly it correctly...Fly high and B-n-Z and know what other planes can do and what they can not do.  Do not take on planes that can out turn you at low altitude ....  Stay with a large group of team mates. The HF's are really juicy targets and 1 of my first to look for in a battle..

mizer67 #4 Posted 05 April 2014 - 07:29 PM

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When I find I'm dying in a 109B in a Tier IV or V fight it's for one of three reasons:

 

1.) I made a mistake

2.) I put myself in a bad position

3.) My team imploded and I didn't have enough of an altitude advantage on the remaining enemy

 

There are no real counters to the 109B except a lightly armed 109B, which are about as rare as hen's teeth and the HE112, which is also rarely seen. A group of three HF working together is about the only other threat you have if you're playing it correctly. 1.2 hurt boost efficiency, so you need more raw speed for each pass to perform well, since you can't just boost away any longer.

 

Since I assume you're climbing on the start of battle to about 8K ft. and not being the first person spotted, I'm also assuming you're putting yourself in a bad position afterwards. You should never die to a Hawk 75 unless you were below ~4500 ft. too early in the battle or he/she spent half the battle climbing before engaging.

 

My advice, don't sell it. It's the best Tier IV light fighter and can compete with Tier V well. Just think about the positions you're putting yourself in when you die and how you can prevent that from happening again. The only advantage you have is speed, so you need to be higher than everyone at all times and take almost every fight vertical, unless you're down two tiers - then you TnB the BnZ'ers at a lower altitude and continue to BnZ the TnB'ers. Be climbing after every attack and if there's ever a break in the fight, use the opportunity to gain alt. Chasing the HFs early is a good tactic because they're usually high up and will keep you out of places you have no business being (low and turning) too early in the fight. Once they're dead, you can BnZ from relative safety as there's no one left than can climb with you (generally) once they're down low and you're diving from above.



SkywhaleExpress #5 Posted 05 April 2014 - 08:39 PM

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I'm sorry, Sandman... But, I thought we were done with this kind of thread. Perhaps you're not doing as well as you think you should, but you don't flight up too often and solo players are hard pressed to carry a team. 

 

Just brush it off, take a break and come back when you're in a better mood.



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Sandman1969 #6 Posted 05 April 2014 - 09:49 PM

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mizer, I always climb first & always go where the masses go. As in I don't follow the small amount of planes, I follow the majority.

 

Alex, I'm doin ok with the rest of my planes, just not that one.



MagusGerhardt #7 Posted 05 April 2014 - 09:52 PM

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View PostSandman1969, on 05 April 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

 

Hell, I even got beat by a Hawk 75 in it.

 

 

This tells me that you're doing something wrong.  I would elaborate, but Mizer covered everything already.

 

You need to acclimate yourself to the idea that the game will evolve and change over time and that your playstyle and book of tricks must adapt to compensate or....well, you start losing a lot and not knowing why.


 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787


Mercsn #8 Posted 05 April 2014 - 09:59 PM

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Ahhhhh, i miss sandman's crazy threads from beta.  They remind me how sane i am and how patient my ttemperament!

 

First, in what battle are you fighting a Tier III hawk75 AND fighting Tier VIs??   Stop the madness!

 

So, the Bf109 series fighters are NOT turn fighters.  Yet, you mention losing turn fights in it.  You just solved your own mystery!   Good job!

 

Seriously though,  your 109b climbs higher and flies faster than any tier III.  Now we all agree bottom tier in a three-tier match is a disadvantage.   So, you have to play defensively and reanalize strengths/ weaknesses (use the prematch team list to review enemy stat comparisons).  Bf109b outurns US and DE tier VI.  Bf109b outclimbs tier VI IJN and RU aircraft, even the highest altitude "low-flyer" La-5 (1700 vs 1400m optimal altitude).

 

Stop trying to turn fight low altitude fighters.  Your job is to counter enemy US orDE LF first since they pose the biggest threat to you.  If they are neutralized (or flying low -a p51a enemy chasing your RU or IJN teammates is a dodo and no threat to you, don't give up your altitude to chase him), or on the other side of the map, move on to your next threat priority.   This is enemy HF.  While you cannot climb with or match them in speed, you can get on them long enough to do damage and chase the better ones away, buying your team time.  The worse ones will panic and turn when they can't out run or outclimb you right away.  This is an easy kill.

 

 Now, with the main threats eliminated,  take stock of what's left of your team and supremacy.  If you're losing chase down anyone who looks like he's running to AA or to hide.  If up on supremacy or nobody is running to hide, abuse altitude to BnZ any IJN or RU enemy fighters as they go after your teammates.   Save your boost for escaping these low flyers late game and for chasing heavies early game.

 

Now, i took the time to write this out for any new tier IV bf109b drivers.  Sandman already knows and does all this as his 64% w/r in the bf109 shows (5% better than his overall) .

 

Sandman, take a moment to turn your crazy off and realize how well you actually do...MUCH better than most players!  Got that?  Good, now put you tinfoil hat back on and return to ranting.

 


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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Mercsn #9 Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

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Incidently, even after 1.2, I've been messing with RU planes.  Going from the i-17 to the bf109b for a "breather" match really highlighted how much more work the RU planes are.  The 109b still floats above its enemies and reacts quick enough to throw off pursuers while allowing the luxery if picking targets instead of taking what comes your way.  If feels like a tier IV p-51a with the 51's old altitude cap.

 

Like mizer said,  you need to rely on its energy retention since boosting is less efficient.   Don't turn it at all except for minor aim correction or vs a HF and only if no other LF around to tail you.


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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Sandman1969 #10 Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:39 PM

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I used to be able to turn fight with it, once upon a time.

 

As for the Hawk, I wasn't fighting it AND T6 planes at the same time. Different matches.

I was in the middle of a furball  chasing one plane when the hawk joined in. So I had to try & evade getting shot from all angles.

 

So I basically need to fly it like an HF & take out the high planes.

 

I find I do better in the I-17 compared to the 109 b. Heck, I tend to do better in the 109 E using the same style.

 

One of those turn fights I was in was against a 51 A. I couldn't catch him. It wasn't mizer though, LOL

 

 

BTW, this wasn't about winning in it. This is about doing well like I used to do in it, getting multiple kills. Now I am struggling to get one.


Edited by Sandman1969, 05 April 2014 - 11:16 PM.


DallasVanDamme #11 Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:34 PM

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Thanks for this thread guys. I'm sure gonna put these tactics to work as I love my 109 and wanna get better with it.   Don't worry Sandman, you'll get your groove back. You're only one battle away from being back in the high life! o7

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Mercsn #12 Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:40 PM

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Sand, looking at your stat sheet and what you've won in (and by supposition done well in) indicates that you are very good at abusing the optimal altitude game mechanics.  That's not a criticism.   That's the game WG decided to give us near the end of beta.  

 

However,  altitude abuse is bad from a game balance standpoint.   So, WG has taken steps to even things up.  

 

The bf109b is still good, just not AS strong as before.   Instead of looking at it like, "the bf109b is bad now (because it's not as OP)."  Look at it like this:  the bf109b is slightly worse, but the  game is slightly better.

 

And as you mention, fly it like a heavy, not like the old beta F4f that could do everything., turn with a zero and chase down a BnZ.


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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Sandman1969 #13 Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:54 AM

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I miss that F4F. I sold it after they broke it.

 

Ok, I'll try it like an HF and see how it goes.



Herr_Oberst_Nu #14 Posted 06 April 2014 - 01:47 AM

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Next time send us a replay Sandman. With that I can try and help you out by actually seeing the areas you did right and areas you can improve on the 109. As some people have already mentioned, the 109 is a excellent plane. However the way its flown is quite different from the turn fighters of the other nations.

Mercsn #15 Posted 06 April 2014 - 01:50 AM

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After they "broke" it!!  Hahaha, that thing was crazy, nuts good!  I do miss the vareity in the plane lines.  Nowadays,  the next tier feels just like the current tier...except a higher Roman numeral.  I had an epic turnfight in my f4f with 8gdaximous in his a6m5 on pacific.  We twisted and turned til i finally got him (IIRC) bbecause i had more HP.

 

There's nothing wrong with enjoying OP aircraft just don't feel too down when they tone em down.  Sooner or later they'll tweak the Ao192 back into line and we'll see tier II seal clubbers open up rant threads!  

 

Regarding the i-17 comparo... i find the i-17 much harder to do well with.  It has a higher win % than my 109b, but i unlocked the 109e whereas the yak-1 might be halfway unlocked with the same mission count.  I spend so much more time being defensive and taking pot shots as the present in the i-17.  It's great for my wingmen or teammates,  but bad and hard work for me.  Plus, the i-17 im loath to run without a flight while i feel confident in the 109b solo.  

 

You can "turn fight" somewhat, but you have to be choosy.  Just a couple nights ago, i had a zero jump on me as i made a Dive n Climb pass on his teammate.   As soon as i boosted up, i saw him break off me and turn to engage a teammate of mine.  So, not under fire,  i looped around onto his tail and killed him instead of continuing my climb.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Sandman1969 #16 Posted 06 April 2014 - 02:47 AM

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I think my I-17 has more aces than the 109 b does.

Mercsn #17 Posted 06 April 2014 - 03:40 AM

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Well, for me, an ace doesn't mean much.  If you use your bf109b to kill a bf110b and an f-2a buffalo, you'll earn the same xp as if you kill three zeros and two i-16 or i-17s.  Since you have to take what targets come down to play, if some of those kills aren't full hp, sure you get an ace, but you get lower xp than if you rammed one bf110.  Plus, taking out one bf110 helps your team just as much as wrecking more low fliers which have less impact on the battle, unless well played.  

 

I guess it depends on what defines "doing well" to you. If i can take out that bf110c-6 in a boring chase before he does much, i feel I've done well even if that's my only kill.  If i fly my i-17 and get three kills on other low fliers (in fun turn fights),  wounded enemies, or stupid US/DE pilots who flew too low,  I don't feel like iI've done as well because i didn't help my team as much.  

 

 

In another thread someone pointed out how putting in the altitude bands made aircraft balance more complex than without.  So, now every plane will be susceptible to bandaid patches while they sort out the over arching game balance.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

SkywhaleExpress #18 Posted 06 April 2014 - 04:06 AM

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Block Quote

I used to be able to turn fight with it, once upon a time.

 The only turn fighting that it ever did was vertical... and it still excels at it... it's just not the only one that can do it now... so you have to watch your kinetic/potential energy,  and your altitude.



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SkyWolf__WM #19 Posted 06 April 2014 - 05:30 AM

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If ya can't fly it... sell it.
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Sandman1969 #20 Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

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How would I go about uploading a replay here anyways?




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