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Petition to rollback nerfing of P51 line

p51 nerfed

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Poll: p51 nerfing (74 members have cast votes)

Should wargaming rollback the recent downgrading of the p51 line?

  1. yes (23 votes [31.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.08%

  2. no (51 votes [68.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.92%

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_Lindy_ #21 Posted 26 March 2014 - 08:49 PM

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View PostAn_Average_Jho, on 26 March 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

 

The famous P-51 is the variant with the merlin engine. The P-51A wasn't that great with the allison engine, because it wasn't supercharged.

 

The P-51A is over-performing both with respect to its historical counter part and with respect to other planes in game.

 

 

eh...quite sure a P51A had a supercharger



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Heh #22 Posted 26 March 2014 - 08:51 PM

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Dude meng, calm down. Your arguments are literally full of holes. By arguing any further, you end up JUSTIFYING why the P-51s were nerfed. And if they weren't changed from back in OBT... then yes, the nerf was needed.

 

The La-5 was OP one time. It got nerfed. The La-9 was considered inhumanely OP back then. It got nerfed. The TL was considered OP back then. It was nerfed, then later removed. The F2G was OP, then it was nerfed (although too hard). The P-39 was semi-OP one time, it was nerfed. The hell is wrong with the P-51s getting nerfed? It's a natural nerf cycle. Is it really bad that WG is actually nerfing the OP things?

 

View PostLindy, on 26 March 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

eh...quite sure a P51A had a supercharger

 

Our P-51A is actually a P-51B (even though a P-51A modification had the Merlin). Go figure.


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View Posthahiha, on , said:


OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

A_RuMoR #23 Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:07 PM

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well it's clear that their are p51 haters out there, specifically those people that cant fly it as successful as others. now lets go nerf the ME262 and BF109f cuz they are both extremely OP, lets just bring down all the planes to 1000 meter ceiling and 50km/h so its a level playing field for the "special" players that will always whine when they get BnZ'd

Edited by A_RuMoR, 26 March 2014 - 09:07 PM.


petersleepy #24 Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:16 PM

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I don't recall a recent P51 nerf. However, they did increase the optimum altitude for them in the recent patch.

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HZero #25 Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:20 PM

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I'm your huckleberry.  Buff the P-51A!  I just finished playing it and I have only a 62% win rate in it.  Something must be done about this travesty.  I have heard of players in beta who were able to maintain 100% win rates and even get Gorovets with it!

 


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Steelpaw #26 Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:39 PM

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Almost all pvp games buff/nerf balance. It makes some people happy and some sad. The fact that the P51 is such a popular often winning airplane makes it a target for the nerf bat. Hang in there rumor, they'll probably buff the 51 in a couple months.

Mercsn #27 Posted 26 March 2014 - 10:52 PM

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View PostA_RuMoR, on 26 March 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

can you provide me with some links to this "outcry" of the p51 being OP?? Like i said, ive asked wargaming and they have not provided me with anything stating that there was some outcry. 

Even if there was some outcry of people wanting a change, it makes no sense to declaw it in the fashion they did, it now has a hard time climbing to 2000 meters, it has no power, no acceleration, the bf109f now outperforms it in many ways. I could understand taking some away from it, but they removed literally everything from it. It was bad enough before that it has the weakest guns of any tier 6, then they removed all its power, all its altitude performance, and the guns were left as crappy as they were to begin with.

 

The P-51a was still somewhat OP after changes it had received in earlier patches.  Someone else in another thread pointed out how this plane in particular (and the line in whole somewhat) has schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder or somesuch.  It has been a complete dog and outclassed by everything.  It has been the undisputed king and able to 1 v 5 using altitude and energy retention.  WG likes to swing the pendulum, but all of the changes since launch have been fairly mild and necessary to bring it back into line with respect to its current tier.

 

DirtyWings pointed out part of the situation:  the play style of the plane has changed.  Previously, there were two types of aircraft.  TnB (turn n burn), low altitude very maneuverable planes and BnZ (boom n zoom) high altitude aircraft.  The UK line sort of fit somewhere in between, but really the spits acted like higher low altitude TnB and the mediums acted like lower altitude BnZ. 

 

Now, with the introduction of the FW190 line, the devs are trying to put in a more horizontal energy fighter playing style.  This would also apply to the faster UK mediums and the planes like the P-51a which lost some of their altitude ability but retained all of their speed.  The P-51a is still the fastest plane in it's tier.  So, you still play it the same way, shoot at enemies as you zoom past, but instead of pulling straight into the vertical to escape and be completely untouchable, you now will want to run away at best speed in the proper altitude range to open up distance from higher altitude aircraft.  I'm pretty sure a P-51a could still run vertically from same or lower tier IJN or RU aircraft, but it's strength is now in it's best-in-tier speed as opposed to having best-in-tier speed and climbing ability. 

 

Fun fact, the p-51a takes twice as long to turn 360 degrees as a yak-1m.  At the end of Beta (mechanics have been changed slightly, but not significantly in the patches since), I had a p-51a out turn my yak-1m while I was up in the red zone fighting stalling, playing in his altitude to keep him from killing my entire team.  This illustrates the extent of performance degradation outside of optimal.  It also illustrates how a "bad turner" can be used to turn fight an enemy that is far out of it's optimal zone.  If you are flying your p-51 down to shoot at lower altitude planes and trying to run straight back up, you're probably going to run into problems with the changes to upward dispersion and the changes to altitude bands of the lower altitude aircraft. 

 

Instead of looking at this as a nerf-to-the-ground, which it isn't, look at it as a balance change which it is.  Learn the current relative strengths of the aircraft vs the weaknesses of opponents and exploit these.  Adjust your play, if necessary. 

 

Welcome to online PvP gaming.  Nothing is set in stone and the game will be continually under development.  The best bet is to learn to roll with the punches if you like the game (this or any online game) because changes will occur. 

 

Oh, and if you REALLY feel the P-51a has been nerfed into uselessness, do something brave and fly the tier VI Yak or Zero, then go back into the P-51a and I'm sure you're perspective will change.


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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

A_RuMoR #28 Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:09 PM

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View PostHZero, on 26 March 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

I'm your huckleberry.  Buff the P-51A!  I just finished playing it and I have only a 62% win rate in it.  Something must be done about this travesty.  I have heard of players in beta who were able to maintain 100% win rates and even get Gorovets with it!

 

your just hating cuz you cant fly it and cant beat anyone flying it. quoting my win ratio has nothing to do with what was done to this plane. you too could have those stats if you learn to fly planes for their strength. many have bitched about me flying the p51 but when they jump in it they cant repeat my performances, you are likely one of those people who said it's the plane that made my stats, and not my flying ability.



A_RuMoR #29 Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:15 PM

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Last time i checked this game is struggling to get new players, and retain them.........now I understand why. there are some members of the community that do not want to see new players achieve success, and they are the ones leading the charge to level the playing field when skilled pilots come onboard and are recognized.



Mugsy_ #30 Posted 27 March 2014 - 12:56 AM

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View PostA_RuMoR, on 26 March 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

Last time i checked this game is struggling to get new players, and retain them.........now I understand why. there are some members of the community that do not want to see new players achieve success, and they are the ones leading the charge to level the playing field when skilled pilots come onboard and are recognized.

In gaming, nerfs and buffs are always a pretty heated subject. If you're flying a plane and it is performing very well, of course you don't want to see it nerfed. Who would want to lose an advantage?

I think my contribution to this discussion is twofold:

1. Sentiment is not the major determining factor in balance - server stats, hard numbers speak louder than lobby groups and vocal minorities. We can measure how the average pilot is performing in a given aircraft. The conversation we have with our community helps direct where the microscope needs to be placed to review and analyze whether or not an aircraft is balanced. It also helps us identify which qualities contribute to a given class or specific aircraft being over or under powered.

2. In this conversation I hear people asking you to participate in a coherent discussion about the attributes and qualities that you feel have made the aircraft in question no longer competitive. You have not been able to produce thoughtful responses that leverage facts and information to support your argument. Instead I feel you took a more emotional route and it is very hard for others hear you when you are insulting them. Obviously this issue matters to you, if you choose more constructive modes of communication you will probably feel heard and that your input has been earnestly considered by others. 


Edited by Mugsy_, 27 March 2014 - 12:56 AM.


A_RuMoR #31 Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:20 AM

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View PostMugsy_, on 27 March 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

In gaming, nerfs and buffs are always a pretty heated subject. If you're flying a plane and it is performing very well, of course you don't want to see it nerfed. Who would want to lose an advantage?

I think my contribution to this discussion is twofold:

1. Sentiment is not the major determining factor in balance - server stats, hard numbers speak louder than lobby groups and vocal minorities. We can measure how the average pilot is performing in a given aircraft. The conversation we have with our community helps direct where the microscope needs to be placed to review and analyze whether or not an aircraft is balanced. It also helps us identify which qualities contribute to a given class or specific aircraft being over or under powered.

2. In this conversation I hear people asking you to participate in a coherent discussion about the attributes and qualities that you feel have made the aircraft in question no longer competitive. You have not been able to produce thoughtful responses that leverage facts and information to support your argument. Instead I feel you took a more emotional route and it is very hard for others hear you when you are insulting them. Obviously this issue matters to you, if you choose more constructive modes of communication you will probably feel heard and that your input has been earnestly considered by others.

1.so what hard numbers where the determining factor in this recent nerfing of the p51a?? please provide some evidence, other than just saying there are actual reasons, but we wont provide you with those reasons.

2. I have detailed exactly what was nerfed, i play that plane daily so i can tell the difference is major, but for those who were not flying it daily it would probably not be noticeable. as we have seen here, some people have said they have not noticed a change. well when i used to be able to climb to 4000 meters and can only climb to 2000 meters now, thats a huge difference, when i used to be able to pull away from a bf109f, and now i cant, thats a major change to the way the plane was flown previously. the p51 used to have the best performance at altitude and now its not even in the top 3.

my major complaint is the fact that I put alot of time into going thru the p51 line, i maxed out my pilots to 4 skills which then helped the flight dynamics of that plane, now i have all these skills and they do nothing to increase the performance anymore, its as though my skills are no longer registering, and my paid upgrades are no longer giving me the 5% increase to boost, the polish no longer giving increase to top speed etc.

I only started playing a few months ago, and i can see that the community does not really encourage or like to see skilled players excel in this game, when they see someone doing better than them they cry foul and want things changed. we struggle daily to get matches in with new players, and here you guys are pushing new players away.

 

well mission accomplished for those who wanted to handicapp my play. it's time to move on to some other game because it is clear the developers in this game dont really care about building the player base. i have several friends that i have watched leave, and i will follow suit.

 



OnboardG1 #32 Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:39 AM

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So you're complaining because you can no longer go up like a rocket and beat every plane in the tier hands down? The aircraft was so much stronger than its competitors that it hurt skilled players flying any other plane in tier.

 

Lets take a look at your stats to compare. You have a 62% WR in the Mustang and are a boring 50%er in everything else. That tells me you found a broken aircraft that you could exploit to make up for a deficit in your skill base and are now QQing because it got nerfed. How about you try to learn to fly the other planes before crying foul that your OP little toy was nerfed?



IllustriousCheeseburger #33 Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:53 AM

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View PostA_RuMoR, on 26 March 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

your just hating cuz you cant fly it and cant beat anyone flying it. quoting my win ratio has nothing to do with what was done to this plane. you too could have those stats if you learn to fly planes for their strength. many have ***** about me flying the p51 but when they jump in it they cant repeat my performances, you are likely one of those people who said it's the plane that made my stats, and not my flying ability.

 

 

P-51A has been OP since before release, and it is no less OP now. There is a reason everyone is disagreeing with you in this thread.

 

About the only thing you've said that made the slightest bit of sense is that the devs don't seem to care about building the player base. Other than that, you've said nothing of value.

 

Oh, and as for your stats? I'm not impressed. Why would anybody want a 56% win rate, an awful 35% survival rate, and a pitiful 2.24 kills per death rate? I suggest you get something actually worth boasting about instead of boasting about your mediocrity. 


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A_RuMoR #34 Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:55 AM

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Last time I checked you could fly that plane also, therefore there is no advantage. So how is it that you don't have 62% or higher win ratio with the p51 if its only the plane that is making the stat and not the pilot ? If your statement is correct, that would mean that anyone flying it should have a 62% win ratio or better simply because that plane is gonna give you an advantage, right? I disagree and would challenge you to test your theory against a pilot you feel is better than you. The better pilot will have better stats on almost any plane comparison.

A_RuMoR #35 Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:02 AM

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You should quote us your stats too Katrina. Apparently stats have something to do with this conversation. I thought it was about the p51 getting needed, but apparently k atarina says my stats are not good enough to question anything

A_RuMoR #36 Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:03 AM

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Too bad we can't discuss these things in person. Maybe people would be more respectful when not anonymous behind their keyboard

IllustriousCheeseburger #37 Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:14 AM

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View PostA_RuMoR, on 26 March 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

You should quote us your stats too Katrina. Apparently stats have something to do with this conversation. I thought it was about the p51 getting needed, but apparently k atarina says my stats are not good enough to question anything

 

:facepalm:

 

Ok hotshot, if you insist. 

 

I largely retired after beta since the game had grown boring, so I don't even bother with the ones I've got now. So here they are from the last day before the game turned into the monumental train wreck it is today.

 

 

Now, stop talking before you further embarrass yourself.


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_Laserguided_ #38 Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:15 AM

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Just a few minutes ago...



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SkywhaleExpress #39 Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:10 AM

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View PostA_RuMoR, on 26 March 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

You should quote us your stats too Katrina. Apparently stats have something to do with this conversation. I thought it was about the p51 getting needed, but apparently k atarina says my stats are not good enough to question anything

Man... why is it that you just don't look up the stats yourself?

 

FTR: You're the one who threw stats and skill into this...

View PostKatariana, on 26 March 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

 

:facepalm:

 

Ok hotshot, if you insist.

 

I largely retired after beta since the game had grown boring, so I don't even bother with the ones I've got now. So here they are from the last day before the game turned into the monumental train wreck it is today.

 

 

 

Now, stop talking before you further embarrass yourself.

ROFL.. I LOL'd.

 

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Mercsn #40 Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:34 AM

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So, the OP has 1700 battles played in the tier VI Mustang with a 62% w/r.  His next highest games played in a non-US plane is the tier VI yak-9 with 109 games and 44% w/r. 

 

Hmm, which plane was broken again?

 

As far as "nerfs" to the p-51a, 4km altitude is more a tier VIII altitude level.  If you're really trying to argue that you should be able to fly a tier VI aircraft to a tier VIII altitude, you're pretty much arguing against yourself at that point. 

 

Overpowered aircraft are fun.  I enjoyed the Me262 and P-51a very much.  But, they are not fair in an online PvP game which requires balance in order to do what you suggest:  retain players.  Is it fair for all those yak, zero and spitfire pilots that you both ran away from AND climbed away from before turning to gun them down?  Probably not.  But, it was fun, right?  See. 

 

You asked for a WG response and Mugsy gave you one.  He didn't have to take the time to read your thread or respond to it, but he did.  All you had for him was more challenge and vitriol.  Like he said, stop looking at it from an emotional, "they nerfed my favorite!" perspective and look at it in the scope of the game as a whole.

 

Maybe fly the plane a little bit and learn how to fight with it's current strengths before you decide it's unusable.

 

:honoring:


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.




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