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[spoiler] what the Japanese tech tree could look like

Japan Mitsubishi Aichi Kawanishi Kyushu Kawasaki Nakajima Tachikawa Mansyu Rikugun

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lostwingman #41 Posted 27 February 2014 - 10:37 PM

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The tree now is a good preliminary tree really. They kind of stretched out the J7W in a pretty apparent, but logical, fashion.

 

I'm confident they'll be able to find stuff and work with people.


Ground Attack, the new Arty




Demon93IT #42 Posted 27 February 2014 - 10:42 PM

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View Postlostwingman, on 27 February 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

The tree now is a good preliminary tree really. They kind of stretched out the J7W in a pretty apparent, but logical, fashion.

 

I'm confident they'll be able to find stuff and work with people.


Well it's fine the branch but it requires something else since there weren't the A6Ms only



lostwingman #43 Posted 27 February 2014 - 10:48 PM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 27 February 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:


Well it's fine the branch but it requires something else since there weren't the A6Ms only


I realize, Japan needs a BnZ line to balance it out.


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Demon93IT #44 Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:09 PM

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View Postlostwingman, on 27 February 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:


I realize, Japan needs a BnZ line to balance it out.

I don't know many planes able to perform BnZ properly. Most of the Nakajima single engine fighters were known to be agile(see the Ki-43 for example), same goes for the Kawasaki. The only plane which wasn't supposed to be agile was the Raiden(considering only the operational ones). Even the Shiden can't be consider as BnZ since it was a good all round fighter(probably the best in the Japan arsenal). We shall see anyway, personally i hope to see Nakajima first(i really like them) although there's the problem of finding single engine jets for tier IX and X



lostwingman #45 Posted 28 February 2014 - 12:57 AM

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Why does it need to be a single engine jet? Really, we could have a Kitsuka with half the weight of the 262 but roughly the same thrust. I think that would be hilarious.

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Demon93IT #46 Posted 28 February 2014 - 01:40 AM

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View Postlostwingman, on 28 February 2014 - 12:57 AM, said:

Why does it need to be a single engine jet? Really, we could have a Kitsuka with half the weight of the 262 but roughly the same thrust. I think that would be hilarious.


Because it seems to be the way to go. There are some issues with this:

1)The 262s were considered as light fighters but they got moved to be heavies. Are they heavies? No because having two engines was the only practical solution to the problem

2)In the leaked US HF branch there's the F2H Banshee, a navy fighter. Is it a heavy? Ironically it is lighter than the F7U, the last remaining twin engine light fighter. Moreover having two engines was a safety feature so, in case one engine failed, the pilot was still able to go back home flying rather than swimming(for this very reason the USN doesn't like the F-35 so much)

 

Sure it would be absurd(since the J7W weights more than the Kikka) but it's a possibility. Moreover since WG had the great idea of reducing the tiers for jets it's rather difficult to find a spot for the Kikka. These are the possibilities:

-Tier VIII light fighter: if the Kikka gets some upgrades it would outclass any tier VIII light fighter currently present. Sure with the Ne-20 isn't not that scary but with better engine and maybe a better armament it would be enough to own the others

-Tier IX light fighter: the stock configuration(the one was tested) is simply too bad for tier IX. It would be eaten alive

-Tier VIII heavy fighter: in this slot it would face the 262, the P.1056 and, eventually, the F5U. Performance wise it would be close enough.

 

I don't like it but i don't see any other solution since, as i said, only the F7U remains as twin engine light fighter.



lostwingman #47 Posted 28 February 2014 - 02:16 AM

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Wait, what? I thought you were arguing against having twin engine fighters at tier IX and X? If not light fighter you could still make it Heavy Fighter because I'm not sure we have a suitable option there, although I really don't see the issue. Apparently also the devs have something called the Ne 430. I have no clue what that is. I wonder how silly of a speed we could get out of it. Ultimately it's going to come down to what aircraft are available overall.

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Demon93IT #48 Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:28 AM

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View Postlostwingman, on 28 February 2014 - 02:16 AM, said:

Wait, what? I thought you were arguing against having twin engine fighters at tier IX and X? If not light fighter you could still make it Heavy Fighter because I'm not sure we have a suitable option there, although I really don't see the issue. Apparently also the devs have something called the Ne 430. I have no clue what that is. I wonder how silly of a speed we could get out of it. Ultimately it's going to come down to what aircraft are available overall.


I don't have any problems what so ever with twin engine fighters, the problem is the trend WG has regarding them. In any case we shall see, i don't think WG would release another branch for Japan fairly soon.



J311yfish #49 Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:23 PM

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Operational locations

-- this post will attempt to catalog the operational locations of aircraft in order to (potentially) reveal previously unseen connections.

-- this might be one way to track field modifications.

 

Mitsubishi (Navy)

 

Kawanishi Kyushu (Navy)

 

Aichi / Kusho / Kugisho Nakajima (Navy) -- Dive Bombers / Torpedo Bombers

 

 

Nakajima Rikugun (Army)

 

Kawasaki Tachikawa (Army)

 

Kawasaki Tachikawa / Nakajima (Army)

 


 

Alternates

 

Omitted

 


Edited by J311yfish, 04 January 2016 - 01:22 AM.

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Commander_Rasseru #50 Posted 28 February 2014 - 10:02 PM

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Should we talk about service ceiling? Nice to see a chart with that on it.

Demon93IT #51 Posted 28 February 2014 - 10:07 PM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 28 February 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Should we talk about service ceiling? Nice to see a chart with that on it.


Well the ceiling ingame is quite different. For example the J7W ingame is quite bad at high altitude even though it was designed to be a high altitude interceptor.



Commander_Rasseru #52 Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:13 PM

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Has anyone looked on the EU forums for what information they researched?

Demon93IT #53 Posted 04 March 2014 - 04:40 PM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 04 March 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Has anyone looked on the EU forums for what information they researched?


I did some research about them(i posted few topics some time ago). I've posted what i've done in previous posts ^^. I'm not aware if other EU players did something similar though, i can check



J311yfish #54 Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:56 AM

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If this article is accurate, then there are 5 avenues for Japanese jet engine design:

 

1) turbojets inspired by German design -- leading to the Ne-10, Ne-12, Ne-120, Ne-130, Ne-230, Ne-330 engines (Kyushu J7W, Nakajima Kitsuka, Yokosuka R2Y2, Kawanishi K-200)

2) Campini-type jet engines inspired by Italian design -- leading to the Ishikawajima Tsu-11 engine (Yokosuka MXY9)

3) Bi-fuel rocket engines inspired by German design (Me-163) -- (Mitsubishi J8M)

4) pulse jet engines inspired by German (V1 flying bomb, He-162 Volksjager) -- leading to Maru KA 10 engine (Kawanishi Baika)

5) Pescara-type free piston compressor design -- no information

 

The most promising avenue with respect to Tier IX and Tier X for this game appears to be the turbojets, obviously.  So considering what is in game now:

 

Tier IX:  J7W2 -- Ne-130, Ne-230, Ne-330

Tier X:  J7W3 -- Ne-440

 

And looking at where engines in that line of development were used (or planned):

 

Nakajima Kitsuka -- Ne-10, Ne-12, Ne-120 (x2)

Nakajima Ki-201 -- Ne-130, Ne-230 (x2)

Yokosuka R2Y2 -- Ne-330 (x2)

 

A reasonable proposal would be:

 

Tier VIII: J7W1 // Nakajima Kitsuka

Tier XI:   J7W2 // Nakajima Ki-201 // Yokosuka R2Y2

Tier X:    J7W3 // Nakajima Ki-201 KAI // Yokosuka R2Y3

 

That would give fighter, fighter-bomber, and attack aircraft at Tier IX and X, and basically complete the upper end of the Japanese tech tree.

 

 

 


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Commander_Rasseru #55 Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:44 AM

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Good news! I found a new Japanese Jet that could be in Tier IX and X
 

Fuji T-1

General characteristics

  • Crew: 2
  • Length: 12.12 m (39 ft 9 in)
  • Wingspan: 10.50 m (34 ft 5 in)
  • Height: 4.08 m (13 ft 5 in)
  • Wing area: 22.22 m2 (239.2 sq ft)
  • Aspect ratio: 4.96:1
  • Airfoil: K-561/K-569
  • Empty weight: 2,420 kg (5,335 lb)
  • Gross weight: 4,150 kg (9,149 lb) clean
  • Max takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb) (with external tanks)
  • Fuel capacity: 1,400 L (308 Imp Gallons)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Bristol Siddeley Orpheus Mk 805 turbojet, 18 kN (4,000 lbf) thrust

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 925 km/h (575 mph; 499 kn) at 6,100 m (20,000 ft)
  • Cruising speed: 620 km/h (385 mph; 335 kn) at 9,150 m (30,000 ft)
  • Range: 1,300 km (808 mi; 702 nmi) (internal fuel)
  • Ferry range: 1,950 km (1,212 mi; 1,053 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 14,400 m (47,244 ft) [5]
  • Rate of climb: 33 m/s (6,500 ft/min)

Armament

  • Guns: Provision for 1 × 12.7 mm Browning M53-2 machine gun in nose
  • Hardpoints: 2 with provisions to carry combinations of:
    • Missiles: 2 × AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles
    • Bombs: 2 × 340 kg (750 lb) bombs
    • Other: 2 × 455 L (100 Imp Gallon) drop tanks
       

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuji_T-1

Don't forget the Japanese version of the F-86 Sabre. Even that import plane and could be odd? It is a big part of Japanese Jet Aviation. It could be different from the American one.

I found some planes that are not on your list.
Tachikawa Ki-94 https://en.wikipedia...Tachikawa_Ki-94
Kawasaki Ki-100 https://en.wikipedia...Kawasaki_Ki-100
Kawanishi N1K https://en.wikipedia...Kawanishi_N1K-J
 

 



Demon93IT #56 Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:55 AM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 05 March 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

Good news! I found a new Japanese Jet that could be in Tier IX and X
 

Fuji T-1

General characteristics

  • Crew: 2
  • Length: 12.12 m (39 ft 9 in)
  • Wingspan: 10.50 m (34 ft 5 in)
  • Height: 4.08 m (13 ft 5 in)
  • Wing area: 22.22 m2 (239.2 sq ft)
  • Aspect ratio: 4.96:1
  • Airfoil: K-561/K-569
  • Empty weight: 2,420 kg (5,335 lb)
  • Gross weight: 4,150 kg (9,149 lb) clean
  • Max takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb) (with external tanks)
  • Fuel capacity: 1,400 L (308 Imp Gallons)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Bristol Siddeley Orpheus Mk 805 turbojet, 18 kN (4,000 lbf) thrust

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 925 km/h (575 mph; 499 kn) at 6,100 m (20,000 ft)
  • Cruising speed: 620 km/h (385 mph; 335 kn) at 9,150 m (30,000 ft)
  • Range: 1,300 km (808 mi; 702 nmi) (internal fuel)
  • Ferry range: 1,950 km (1,212 mi; 1,053 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 14,400 m (47,244 ft) [5]
  • Rate of climb: 33 m/s (6,500 ft/min)

Armament

  • Guns: Provision for 1 × 12.7 mm Browning M53-2 machine gun in nose
  • Hardpoints: 2 with provisions to carry combinations of:
    • Missiles: 2 × AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles
    • Bombs: 2 × 340 kg (750 lb) bombs
    • Other: 2 × 455 L (100 Imp Gallon) drop tanks
       

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuji_T-1

Don't forget the Japanese version of the F-86 Sabre. Even that import plane and could be odd? It is a big part of Japanese Jet Aviation. It could be different from the American one.

I found some planes that are not on your list.
Tachikawa Ki-94 https://en.wikipedia...Tachikawa_Ki-94
Kawasaki Ki-100 https://en.wikipedia...Kawasaki_Ki-100
Kawanishi N1K https://en.wikipedia...Kawanishi_N1K-J
 

 


The T-1 was designed and built as trainer, it wasn't supposed to fight(as its armament suggests). The only plausible tier X for the IJA is the Sabre, unless there's a Japanese project i'm not aware of able to fit in that tier. Still remains the problem for tier IX.

 

As the other planes are concerned in my own preliminary work i considered all three of them(the N1K and the Ki-100 are considered in his). The problem is that it's possibile to divide the IJA branch in two per manufacturer(Nakajima or Kawasaki) but it would increase the number of problems:

-Kawasaki hasn't anything suitable for tier IV(as far as i'm aware of)

-With two branches there will be problems regarding the slots to fill at tier IX and X(four rather than two).

 

In any case personally i would focus on Nakajima first since it's slightly easier. I wonder if WG would do the same or if they would mix the two.

 

View PostJ311yfish, on 05 March 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

If this article is accurate, then there are 5 avenues for Japanese jet engine design:

 

1) turbojets inspired by German design -- leading to the Ne-10, Ne-12, Ne-120, Ne-130, Ne-230, Ne-330 engines (Kyushu J7W, Nakajima Kitsuka, Yokosuka R2Y2, Kawanishi K-200)

2) Campini-type jet engines inspired by Italian design -- leading to the Ishikawajima Tsu-11 engine (Yokosuka MXY9)

3) Bi-fuel rocket engines inspired by German design (Me-163) -- (Mitsubishi J8M)

4) pulse jet engines inspired by German (V1 flying bomb, He-162 Volksjager) -- leading to Maru KA 10 engine (Kawanishi Baika)

5) Pescara-type free piston compressor design -- no information

 

The most promising avenue with respect to Tier IX and Tier X for this game appears to be the turbojets, obviously.  So considering what is in game now:

 

Tier IX:  J7W2 -- Ne-130, Ne-230, Ne-330

Tier X:  J7W3 -- Ne-440

 

And looking at where engines in that line of development were used (or planned):

 

Nakajima Kitsuka -- Ne-10, Ne-12, Ne-120 (x2)

Nakajima Ki-201 -- Ne-130, Ne-230 (x2)

Yokosuka R2Y2 -- Ne-330 (x2)

 

A reasonable proposal would be:

 

Tier VIII: J7W1 // Nakajima Kitsuka

Tier XI:   J7W2 // Nakajima Ki-201 // Yokosuka R2Y2

Tier X:    J7W3 // Nakajima Ki-201 KAI // Yokosuka R2Y3

 

That would give fighter, fighter-bomber, and attack aircraft at Tier IX and X, and basically complete the upper end of the Japanese tech tree.

 

 

 


2)The Campini engine is unlikely to be present ingame since it is a piston engine moving a compressor. As thrust is concerned isn't great, as it was shown by the C.C.2(or Campini N.1, it's the same plane).

4)The He-162 used the BMW turbojet engines, at least as far as i'm aware of. Only the Japanese version used the pulse jet on it.

 

A question: was the R2Y armed? With guns i mean. As far as i recall it wasn't but probably i'm wrong(i don't have much information regarding it). As the rest is concerned is great, good job!


Edited by Demon93IT, 05 March 2014 - 09:01 AM.


J311yfish #57 Posted 05 March 2014 - 01:28 PM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 05 March 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

I found some planes that are not on your list.
Tachikawa Ki-94 https://en.wikipedia...Tachikawa_Ki-94
Kawasaki Ki-100 https://en.wikipedia...Kawasaki_Ki-100
Kawanishi N1K https://en.wikipedia...Kawanishi_N1K-J

 

 

Tachikawa Ki-94 

Both versions are on the alternate list (twin-boom Ki-94-I and Ki-94-II monoplane).

 

Kawasaki Ki-100

This is on the the proposed tech tree at Tier V as a development of the Ki-61.

 

Kawanishi N1K's

These are on the proposed tech tree at Tier VI and VII based on their speeds and engine upgrades.  I will rename them to N1K1-J and N1K2-J so that they are not mistaken for floatplanes.

 

 

There are difficult decisions to make with so many interesting aircraft available, yet I have tried not to supplant developers' judgement with my own.  My goal has been simply to map it out in a logical manner so that they can make decisions about how to implement it without being overwhelmed by the research aspect (see "Guidelines").  I have not ventured to explore imported jets because I think that the best case should be made for native development first ("begin at the beginning").

 

To be fair, a developer could look at the ideas presented here and say, "well, that is all very interesting, but how can I make it fun?"  That is why I think that the next step, after researching the tech tree and viable alternatives, would be to identify the flight characteristics and themes of each avenue.  What characterizes the Nakajima line?  What makes it an exciting alternative to the maneuverable Mitsubishi?  What about the muddy water between the "heavy fighters" and "ground attack" roles?  I don't have the answers to those questions (yet) but I would like to keep going.  I am thankful that there are others that share my enthusiasm for the history and the game.

 

Here are some sources that you all might appreciate:

Edwin Dyer's website (last updated 2002)

Edwin Dyer's book 1 (2009) -- table of contents here

Edwin Dyer's book 2 (August 2014) -- table of contents here 

 

I have also added sources to the original post for pictures, paint schemes, etc.

 

 

View PostDemon93IT, on 05 March 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:


A question: was the R2Y armed? With guns i mean. As far as i recall it wasn't but probably i'm wrong(i don't have much information regarding it). As the rest is concerned is great, good job!

 

I have not yet seen any listing of armament for the R2Y2.  The best information so far is here in which he claims development shifted from a reconnaissance role to an attack role.  There are also some notes here (2010) by Edwin Dyer posting as "Hikoki1946".  There may be more information in his 2009 book, which I hope to get later this week, will update.

 

 

 

 


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J311yfish #58 Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:17 PM

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Update:    (old ----> new)

-- added jets at Tier VIII, IX, X according to engine lineage and J7W2 precedent

-- rearranged the tree more strictly across Navy/Army lines for these reasons:

  • to make jet relationship more apparent
  • to resolve the muddy overlap of heavy fighter / ground-attack roles
  • to indicate the Nakajima IJA line as the major parallel track from which smaller specializations can be made.
  • The new structure also makes it easier to incorporate other aircraft (if more are needed) based on their armament lineage, particularly at lower tiers.

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Commander_Rasseru #59 Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:25 PM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 05 March 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:


The T-1 was designed and built as trainer, it wasn't supposed to fight(as its armament suggests). The only plausible tier X for the IJA is the Sabre, unless there's a Japanese project i'm not aware of able to fit in that tier. Still remains the problem for tier IX.


It maybe not a tier X.... But maybe could be a VIII or IX for one branch tree that needs a jet. I would also think it would be good at maneuverability. Armament could be changed to even with their own tier. If the Japanese wasn't restricted with their military after the war. They might load other armaments and not uncommon too add new weapons to a current squadrons that were never design to carry it. Trainer are unlimited with what kinds armaments could be fitted. Because they were used a test beds sometimes. Note that the 2nd crew member could be useful in other roles.

Sabre is a good plausible and maybe have characteristics changes than the US one.



Demon93IT #60 Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:48 PM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 05 March 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:


It maybe not a tier X.... But maybe could be a VIII or IX for one branch tree that needs a jet. I would also think it would be good at maneuverability. Armament could be changed to even with their own tier. If the Japanese wasn't restricted with their military after the war. They might load other armaments and not uncommon too add new weapons to a current squadrons that were never design to carry it. Trainer are unlimited with what kinds armaments could be fitted. Because they were used a test beds sometimes. Note that the 2nd crew member could be useful in other roles.

Sabre is a good plausible and maybe have characteristics changes than the US one.


Well it would become a what-if plane then. We'll see anyway.

 

As for the Sabre i don't know the differences but they should be either very similar or identical







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