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[spoiler] what the Japanese tech tree could look like

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J311yfish #241 Posted 20 March 2016 - 11:41 PM

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J311yfish #242 Posted 22 May 2016 - 10:29 PM

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Japanese Aircraft Torpedoes -- and the prospect of torpedo bomber aircraft for WoWP

 

Source:  Target Report - Japanese Torpedoes and Tubes, Article 2 - Aircraft Torpedoes (03/07/1946), p.8

  "Japanese aircraft were not designed to meet requirements of specific airplanes but instead, the aircraft were modified to suit the torpedo."

 

Introduction
Much attention has been paid in previous posts to the discussion of aircraft and associated engine and armament development, but no consideration has been given to the development of aircraft torpedoes.  This is unfortunate because, as identified, an entire line of naval aircraft is devoted to their use.  This post will provide a summary of torpedo development with emphasis on technical limitations in order to help characterize or imagine the function of Japanese torpedo bombers in relation to other aircraft in game.

 

Torpedo performance - summary

Year Torpedo Total Weight Explosive Weight Max Launch Velocity* Speed Range
1931 (year 2591) Type 91 Mod 1 784 kg 150 kg 482 km/h 77.8 km/h 2012 m
1940-1941 Type 91 Mod 2 835 kg 204 kg 482 km/h 77.8 km/h 2012 m
1942 Type 91 Mod 3 849 kg 240 kg 482 km/h 77.8 km/h 2012 m
1943 Type 91 Mod 3 Improved 857 kg 240 kg 556 km/h 77.8 km/h 2012 m
1944 Type 91 Mod 3 Strong 857 kg 240 kg 648 km/h 77.8 km/h 1500 m
1944 Type 91 Mod 4 Strong 921 kg 308 kg 648 km/h 75.9 km/h 1500 m
  Type 91 Mod 7 Strong 1052 kg 420 kg 648 km/h 77.8 km/h 1500 m
1944 - 04/1945

Type 4, warhead Mk 2

Type 4, warhead Mk 4

984 kg

1105 kg

304 kg

417 kg

741 km/h

741 km/h

75.9 km/h 1500 m

* the maximum speed at which the torpedo can hit the water without breaking up.

 

The typical torpedo drop is performed at 330 feet (100.6 m) and 180 knots (333.4 km/h) to achieve entry angle of 17-20 degrees.

-- The maximum drop altitude is about 1000 feet (305 m).
-- The minimum drop altitude is about 50 feet (15.2 m).

... At this speed and altitude a torpedo bomber in the current game would be very vulnerable, unless that vulnerability was mitigated by:

    1) air support -- reliable supporting fire, such as that provided by bots, or related objectives provided for human players
    2) stealth mechanics -- reduction in visibility due to camouflage, night time, radar obfuscation, etc.

 

The H.M.S. Prince of Wales was sunk by 7 Type 91's (Mod 1 and 4), and the H.M.S. Repulse was sunk by 17 of the same.

... this just means that multiple torpedo bombers are necessary to sink a battleship, further emphasizing the need for air superiority or support.

 

There is one speed for Japanese torpedoes (42 knots), which translates to 77.8 km/h:
-- At that speed a maximum range of 2012 meters is reached in 1.54 minutes (92.4 sec).
-- At that speed a maximum range of 1500 meters is reached in 1.15 minutes (69 sec).

... This means that if you succeed at launching a torpedo moments before you die in-game, you'll have to wait at most 92 seconds before getting the results; this in turn suggests that some form of camera tracking of the torpedo (such as after death) might be favorable.

 

There is one fin configuration for Japanese torpedoes (4-fins), and it achieves proper depth after 348 meters of travel:
-- If proper depth is desirable in all cases, then the minimum range can be considered to be equal to 348 meters.

-- At the standard speed this means 0.27 minutes (16.2 sec) to achieve proper depth.
... Given that there is a 1664 meter "window of opportunity" (2012 m - 348 m) for torpedo deployment , and given the previous conditions for deployment, this suggests that a helpful HUD element would be one that accounts for range, altitude, speed; or perhaps a voiceover that advises you to drop altitude, drop speed, etc.  A tutorial might also be appropriate.

 

Torpedo bombers - summary

First Flight Production Aircraft Engine Speed Armament Torpedos/Bombs
1923   B1M        
12/1929   B2M        
1933 1933-1936 B3Y Hiro Type 91 219 km/h

1x7.7mm fixed forward

1x7.7mm flexible rear

1x800kg torpedo or

1x500kg bomb or 

2x250kg or

6x30kg

08/1934   B4M1 Mitsubishi 8-Shi  

3x7.7mm

up to 800kg

late 1935 1937-1938 B4Y1

Hiro Type 91

Kotobuki 3

Hikari 2

278 km/h 1x7.7mm Type 92 (rear)

1x800kg torpedo or

up to 500kg of bombs

1936 1937 B4N1

Kotobuki 3

Hikari 1

 

 

 

 

 

1937 1937 B5M1

Kinsei 43

380 km/h @ 2200m 1x7.7mm

1x800kg torpedo or

up to 800kg of bombs

01/1937

 

12/1939

 

____-____

 

1942-1943

 

B5N1

 

B5N2

 

Hikari 2

Hikari 3

Sakae 11

Sakae 21

 

369 km/h @ 2000m

378 km/h @ 3600m

 

1x7.7mm Type 92 (rear)

1x800kg torpedo or

up to 800kg of bombs

spring 1941

02/1943-08/1945

06/1943-08/1945

 

 

B6N1 Model 11

B6N2 Model 12

B6N2a Model 12a

B6N3

Nk7A Mamoru 11

MK4T Kasei 25

 

MK4T-C Kasei 25c

469 km/h @ 4800m

482 km/h @ 4900m

 

 

1x7.7mm Type 97 (VT) and

1x7.7mm Type 97 (rear)

or

1x7.7mm Type 97 (VT) and

1x13mm Type 2 (rear)

1x800kg torpedo or

up to 800kg of bombs

05/1942+

05/1942-02/1944

04/1944-08/1945

Projected

B7A1

B7A2

B7A3

NK9B Homare 11

NK9C Homare 12

NK9H-S Homare 23

MK9A

 

567 km/h @ 6550m

 

 

VII  2x20mm Type 99 Model 2 (W)

and

1x7.92 Type 1 rear (early) or

1x13mm Type 2 rear (late)

up to 800kg
08/1943+ 1943-1945

P1Y1

 

P1Y2

P1Y3 Model 33

P1Y4 Model 12

P1Y5 Model 14

P1Y6 Model 17

NK9B Homare 11

NK9C Homare 12

MK4T-A Kasei 25a

NK9H Homare 21

Homare 23

MK9A

MK4T-C Kasei 25c

547 km/h @ 5900m

 

523 km/h @ 5400m

547 km/h @ 6100m

 


 

VII  1x20mm Type 99 (N) +

VII  1x20mm Type 99 (rear)

 

or tail gun variation,

or night fighter oblique configuration

1x800kg torpedo or

up to 1000kg of bombs

 

up to 1600kg of bombs or

MXY7 Ohka Model 21 or

MXY7 Ohka Model 22

 

 

Combined Conclusions

-- Type 91 Mod 1 was used up to and including the Nakajima B5N.

-- The transition to Type 91 Mod 2 probably occurred with the B5N1.

-- It can be reasonably assumed that the transition from Type 91 Mod 3 Improved to Mod 3 Strong occurs with the Aichi B7A2 because the maximum speed of the B7A2 (567 km/h in level flight) exceeds the capability of the Mod 3 Improved (which experiences loss of durability if water entry >556 km/h).  The B7A2 was planned for a new generation of carriers but were ultimately allotted to land-based units.  The B7A3 was projected but the torpedo bomber function was ultimately replaced by more capable land-based units such as the twin-engine Ki-67 and P1Y.  The Ki-67 could be included above (IJA counterpart to IJN's P1Y) because it served as a torpedo bomber for both IJA and IJN.

-- The Mod 3 Strong, Mod 4 Strong, and Mod 7 Strong developments (allowing greater deployment velocity) make sense given that Ki-67 and P1Y lack dive brakes (unlike the previous B-series of aircraft).

-- The Type 4 was essentially a Type 91 modified to ease production and does not appear to correlate to any particular aircraft.

 

Lack of air superiority necessitated an improvement to standoff distance and therefore it can be argued that 'torpedo' development continued sequentially by the way of glide bombs and the Ohka/Baika human-guided jet-powered bombs.  The Army instead developed radio-guided bombs (I-Go), trialed on Ki-48 but meant ultimately for the Ki-102b.

 

Ohka/Baika performance - summary

[chart]

work in progress

 

 

Torpedos in WoWS:

-- speed has been reduced from 42 knots to 35 knots (-16.7%).

-- range has been increased from 2012 meters to 3400 meters (+69.0%)

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 25 May 2016 - 07:02 PM.

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J311yfish #243 Posted 25 May 2016 - 02:34 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 31 October 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

Fighter, Torpedo Bomber, Dive Bomber progression for carrier-borne aircraft in World of Warships:

 

Tier Carrier Fighter

Torpedo

Bomber

Dive

Bomber

IV Hosho

Mitsubishi 1MF

Nakajima A2N2

Mitsubishi 1MT

Mitsubishi B1M

(none)
V​ Zuiho

Nakajima A2N2

Nakajima A4N

Mitsubishi B1M

Nakajima B3N

Aichi D1A1

Aichi D1A2

VI Ryujo

Nakajima A4N

Mitsubishi A5M2

Nakajima B3N

Yokosuka B4Y

Aichi D1A2

Aichi D3A1

VII Hiryu

Mitsubishi A5M2

Mitsubishi A6M2

Yokosuka B4Y

Nakajima B5N2

Aichi D3A1

Aichi D3A2

VIII Shokaku

Mitsubishi A6M2

Mitsubishi A7M1

Nakajima B5N2

Nakajima B6N

Aichi D3A2

Yokosuka D4Y2

IX Taiho

Kawanishi N1K5-A

Kyushu J7W1

Nakajima B6N​
Aichi B7A

Yokosuka D4Y2

Yokosuka D4Y3

X Hakuryu

Mitsubishi A8M

Nakajima J8N1 (Kikka)

Aichi B7A

Yokosuka R2Y1-B

Yokosuka D4Y3

Nakajima J5N1

 

 

 

Fighter, Torpedo Bomber, Dive Bomber progression for carrier-borne aircraft in World of Warships as of 05/25/16.  These changes were probably made months ago (~02/2016):

 

Tier Carrier Fighter

Torpedo

Bomber

Dive

Bomber

IV Hosho (1922)

Nakajima A4N (1935-1940)

Mitsubishi A5M4 (1939-1942)

Mitsubishi B1M

Yokosuka B4Y (1937-1938)

(none)
V​ Zuiho (1937)

Mitsubishi A5M4 (1939-1942)

Mitsubishi A6M2 (12/1939-1943)

Yokosuka B4Y (1937-1938)

Nakajima B5N2 (12/1939-1943)

Aichi D1A2 (1936-1940)

 

VI Ryujo (1933)

Mitsubishi A5M4 (1939-1942)

Mitsubishi A6M2 (12/1939-1943)

Nakajima B5N2 (12/1939-1943)

 

Aichi D1A2 (1936-1940)

Aichi D3A1 (1937-08/1942)

VII Hiryu (1939)

Mitsubishi A6M2 (12/1939-1943)

Mitsubishi A6M5c (1944)

Nakajima B5N2 (12/1939-1943)

 

Aichi D3A1 (1937-08/1942)

Aichi D3A2 (08/1942-08/1945)

VIII Shokaku (1941)

Mitsubishi A6M5c (1944)

Kawanishi N1K5-A (Imagined)

Nakajima B5N2 (1942-1943)

Nakajima B6N (02/1943-08/1945)

Aichi D3A2 (08/1942-08/1945)

Yokosuka D4Y2 (04/1944-08/1944)

IX Taiho (1944)

Kawanishi N1K5-A (Imagined)

Mitsubishi A7M1 (05/1944+)

Nakajima B6N​ (02/1943-08/1945)
Aichi B7A2 (04/1944-08/1945)

Yokosuka D4Y2 (04/1944-08/1944)

Aichi B7A2 (04/1944-08/1945)

X Hakuryu (____)

Mitsubishi A7M1 (05/1944+)

Mitsubishi A8M (Projected/Imagined)

Aichi B7A2 (04/1944-08/1945)

Nakajima C6N1-B (Projected)

Aichi B7A2 (04/1944-08/1945)

Wakusei (Projected/Imagined)

 

It looks reasonable overall, but here are the problems that I see:

 

Problem 1: N1K5-A to A7M1 sequence is not correct.  

N1K5-A should instead be called N1K4-A, if Francillon's notes are complete on the matter, and both of those variants would be more powerful in engine and armament than A7M1.  A7M1 development was protracted and when it did come out it was a disappointment with Homare 22.  N1K4-J/N1K4-A used Homare 23, and both N1K5-J and A7M2 used MK9A.  N1K4-J/N1K4-A and N1K5-J used 2x13.2mm and 4x20mm, whereas A7M1 used 2x13.2 and 2x20mm only, or 4x20mm only.  So anyway a better choice would be:

VIII Shokaku (1941)

Mitsubishi A6M5 (08/1943+)

Mitsubishi A7M2 (after 05/1944)

IX Taiho (1944)

Mitsubishi A7M2 (after 05/1944)

Kawanishi N1K4-A (spring 1945+)

X Hakuryu (Projected/Imagined)

Kawanishi N1K4-A (spring 1945+)

Mitsubishi A8M (Projected/Imagined)

 

Problem 2: Tier X inconsistency

-- Mitsubishi A8M, Nakajima C6N1-B, and Aichi B8A Mokusei have been substantiated by Francillon, Dyer, or both, though not in any great detail.  "Wakusei" on the other hand uses the internet as a secondary source, and the primary source ("recent Maru magazine") has not been verified.


Edited by J311yfish, 27 May 2016 - 10:58 PM.

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pyantoryng #244 Posted 26 May 2016 - 06:50 PM

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The changes had been done for quite some time now...it got rid of the biplane tier that people complain about so much...in comparison, the US gets straight to F4F at tier 5 (after the F3F in tier 4), then to F6F, then F4U, and finally stops at F8F. This also rid the carriers of jet planes (F2H Banshee/Kikka, and even the J7W1 Shinden, which was planned to be converted into jet).

It's not like WoWS needs to care about that kind of detail...you can just slap numbers on planes and they'll work. It's not like having machine guns only is handicapping in firepower for the US nor having cannons offering firepower advantage to the Japanese. Besides, people does not really go there for planes, anyway.

 

I'll admit, though, I had been wondering what the heck is the Wakusei bomber for quite a while...not much of a problem for devs who are okay with float MUSTANGS, I guess...


Edited by pyantoryng, 26 May 2016 - 06:50 PM.


WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
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J311yfish #245 Posted 03 June 2016 - 01:12 PM

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Addendum

 

This post is reserved for minor updates and edits such as information that cannot be added to the main data due to forum constraints (Ex: size/format).  The goal will be of course to limit the size of the addendum to only extremely relevant information that might not otherwise get to be included in the original/appropriate place.

 


 

Nakajima B6N Tenzan -- some of the information for this aircraft is not entirely correct, and could be far more comprehensive, especially as it relates to development leading to Nakajima Kikka.  The definitive source in English is not Francillon but rather Wieliczko.  Due to forum constraints on post sizes, and due to time constraints, I am going to leave this information as it is, and will only update it if it becomes apparent that IJN torpedo bombers are to be included in game.


Edited by J311yfish, 08 July 2016 - 06:09 PM.

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J311yfish #246 Posted 30 June 2016 - 10:10 PM

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A post here on EU forum mentions a certain 3D modeling site that claims to leak the IJA line of aircraft:

 

I Nakajima Type 91
II Kawasaki Ki-10
III Nakajima Ki-27
IV Nakajima Ki-43-I
V Nakajima Ki-43-II
VI Kawasaki Ki-61
VII Nakajima Ki-84
VIII Tachikawa Ki-94-II
IX Tachikawa Ki-162
X Tachikawa Ki-162-3

 

If true, then it is interesting to note that they chose the fictional Tachikawa Ki-162 over the actual Nakajima Kikka, Kugisho R2Y2, Nakajima Ki-201, and Rikugun Ki-200/202, presumably because it helps to maintain a consistent theme.  Also interesting that Japan gets Ki-162 before Germany gets Heinkel He 162.

 

If true, then it cannibalizes identified progression, but on the bright side it should make for interesting premiums, such as:

 

  • Kawasaki Ki-28
  • Kawasaki Ki-100
  • Nakajima Ki-11
  • Nakajima Ki-84 variants
  • Nakajima Ki-87

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J311yfish #247 Posted 03 July 2016 - 03:13 PM

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IJA aircraft baseline specs/models leaked via Russian youtube video.  Added comparison to max-spec aircraft of same tier.

 

II - Kawasaki Ki-10

 

III - Nakajima Ki-27

 

IV - Nakajima Ki-43-I

 

V - Nakajima Ki-43-II

 

VI - Kawasaki Ki-61

 

VII - Nakajima Ki-84

 

VIII - Tachikawa Ki-94-II

 

IX - Tachikawa Ki-162

 

X - Tachikawa Ki-162-3

 


Edited by J311yfish, 17 July 2016 - 10:55 PM.

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outwardpanicjoe #248 Posted 05 July 2016 - 06:39 AM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 03 July 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

IJA aircraft baseline specs/models leaked via Russian youtube video.  Added comparison to max-spec aircraft of same tier.

 

II - Kawasaki Ki-10

 

III - Nakajima Ki-27

 

IV - Nakajima Ki-43-I

 

V - Nakajima Ki-43-II

 

VI - Kawasaki Ki-61

 

VII - Nakajima Ki-84

 

VIII - Tachikawa Ki-94-II

 

IX - Tachikawa Ki-162

 

X - Tachikawa Ki-162-3

 

 

 

 

I was kinda hoping to see if they were going to put any japanese heavies in.

J311yfish #249 Posted 06 July 2016 - 01:25 PM

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Tachikawa Ki-162 makes an appearance on the July 2016 wallpaper/calendar (off to the right):

spotted by Pentakon on EU forum, image presumably modified by Pentakon.


Edited by J311yfish, 06 July 2016 - 01:26 PM.

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J311yfish #250 Posted 06 July 2016 - 01:44 PM

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If the information made public before the official release is true, then here is quick overview of all Japanese aircraft in-game, in the context of other developments:

 

After the IJA line is released, and modules are made public, it should be easier to confirm placement of aircraft at all tiers.


Edited by J311yfish, 06 July 2016 - 01:46 PM.

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outwardpanicjoe #251 Posted 06 July 2016 - 05:36 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 06 July 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

If the information made public before the official release is true, then here is quick overview of all Japanese aircraft in-game, in the context of other developments:

 

After the IJA line is released, and modules are made public, it should be easier to confirm placement of aircraft at all tiers.

 

wait is this the planned tech tree for japan?

J311yfish #252 Posted 07 July 2016 - 12:45 AM

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View Postoutwardpanicjoe, on 06 July 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

wait is this the planned tech tree for japan?

 

Blue = current tech tree = IJN = Imperial Japanese Navy
Yellow = new line of aircraft coming this month = IJA = Imperial Japanese Army
 
Premiums are labeled as such
 
All else is speculative in nature based on the works of Francillon, Dyer, Mikesh, Bueschel, and others.

Edited by J311yfish, 07 July 2016 - 12:58 AM.

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pyantoryng #253 Posted 07 July 2016 - 02:03 AM

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Ki-94-II shows Ki-84 pic...

WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

J311yfish #254 Posted 07 July 2016 - 02:14 AM

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fixed.  Forum won't let me link the youtube video, but you should be able to find it by searching for:

Новые японские истребители в World of Warplanes


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carson_643 #255 Posted 07 July 2016 - 06:34 AM

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Thanks for the info!

Caecias #256 Posted 07 July 2016 - 06:15 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 06 July 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

 

Blue = current tech tree = IJN = Imperial Japanese Navy
Yellow = new line of aircraft coming this month = IJA = Imperial Japanese Army
 
Premiums are labeled as such
 
All else is speculative in nature based on the works of Francillon, Dyer, Mikesh, Bueschel, and others.

 

All I have to say is wow - the amount of information and research here in this thread is awesome.

 

Thanks so much for your efforts and the others that contributed!!  I can wait!  I think I am turning Japanese, turning Japanese - I really think so!

 

 


Edited by Caecias, 07 July 2016 - 06:15 PM.

 


Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Chokai #257 Posted 08 July 2016 - 09:50 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 30 June 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

A post here on EU forum mentions a certain 3D modeling site that claims to leak the IJA line of aircraft:

 

I Nakajima Type 91
II Kawasaki Ki-10
III Nakajima Ki-27
IV Nakajima Ki-43-I
V Nakajima Ki-43-II
VI Kawasaki Ki-61
VII Nakajima Ki-84
VIII Tachikawa Ki-94-II
IX Tachikawa Ki-162
X Tachikawa Ki-162-3

 

If true, then it is interesting to note that they chose the fictional Tachikawa Ki-162 over the actual Nakajima Kikka, Kugisho R2Y2, Nakajima Ki-201, and Rikugun Ki-200/202, presumably because it helps to maintain a consistent theme.  Also interesting that Japan gets Ki-162 before Germany gets Heinkel He 162.

 

If true, then it cannibalizes identified progression, but on the bright side it should make for interesting premiums, such as:

 

  • Kawasaki Ki-28
  • Kawasaki Ki-100
  • Nakajima Ki-11
  • Nakajima Ki-84 variants
  • Nakajima Ki-87

Those are some beautiful planes, had to look some up. Happy to finally see the Oscar in the tech tree.


The (not so) amazing Chokai is back! And he's hit all his personal goals sans one! Seriously though, nice to be back, looks like he game is improving. I continue to try to recruit new people.


J311yfish #258 Posted 12 July 2016 - 01:51 AM

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module reveal on youtube

 

Some highlights:

-- Ki-10 ...

-- Ki-27 engine progression mirrors A5M (cost savings)

-- Ki-43-III is included in the Ki-43-II progression

-- Ki-61 progression does not include the Ki-100 radial-engine adaptation.  Also, a 4x20mm variant (Ki-61-IIb) has not been added --> possible premium.

-- Ki-84 gets a 30mm option .. and everything up from this point gets 30mm's

-- Ki-94-II ...

-- Ki-162 engine progression mirrors J7W2 (cost savings)


Edited by J311yfish, 17 July 2016 - 01:37 PM.

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pyantoryng #259 Posted 12 July 2016 - 11:39 AM

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Ki-43 I can be exclusively armed with cannons by tier 4...I don't recall any tech tree planes at tier 4 being armed exclusively with cannons up to this point.

 

Ho 155 II seems to be carrying forward from Ki-84 to Ki-94, seeing that it's the exact same model (Ho 155-II [K])

 

Calibers are often not unified in "fully upgraded" config (mg+20mm and 20mm+30mm). And of course, gotta get those Nakajima/Kawasaki motors and army guns all over again. The Ho-5 already exist in the Ki-88, and I say that it is an okay gun, might be better than the Type 99-2 of the Navy...

 

Top level gun is available already at tier 9 not unlike the existing IJN line...uses the same jets as J7W2. The whole line never gets more than two 30mms.

 

Ho 155-I = basic model, too big to fit into wing mounts, available as cowling mount for tier 9 stock.

Ho 155-II = Ho 155-I modified to fit into wing mounts. These basic Ho 155 apparently performs comparably to the Navy's Type 5 (450rpm@700 m/s velocity; not that muzzle velocity exists in WoWP now)

Ho 155-III...could it be like the top of the line IJN 30mm that used to fire at 600rpm? A logical continuation of this line of guns' development? Doesnt seem to have any info available otherwise...


Edited by pyantoryng, 12 July 2016 - 11:39 AM.


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I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

carson_643 #260 Posted 12 July 2016 - 05:03 PM

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I'm excited by this. I just recently discovered the game and I'm glad they're making the effort to put this into play. Thanks again for passing the information along. 





Also tagged with Japan, Mitsubishi, Aichi, Kawanishi, Kyushu, Kawasaki, Nakajima, Tachikawa, Mansyu, Rikugun

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