Jump to content


[spoiler] what the Japanese tech tree could look like

Japan Mitsubishi Aichi Kawanishi Kyushu Kawasaki Nakajima Tachikawa Mansyu Rikugun

  • Please log in to reply
301 replies to this topic

J311yfish #201 Posted 19 June 2015 - 11:23 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013
The World of Warplanes Encyclopedia for Japan shows a second line (currently blank) dedicated to Multirole Fighters (screenshot).

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #202 Posted 20 June 2015 - 01:40 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

--Update 4.86

 

The Kikka Update

 

quick overview

-- resolved Nakajima Kikka's location based on historical narrative, engine development, designer lineage, design concepts, manufacture location.

 

 

I could go into great detail because it is very interesting (to me) but I will instead try to keep it simple.

 

Historical narrative

-- The Nakajima Kikka's proper context is established by a 1944 meeting that determined a change in strategy for the use of air power.  This is the origin of Ohka (Cherry Blossom) and Kikka (Orange Blossom).  I will come back to this.

 

Engine development

-- The Nakajima Kikka's proper context is in relationship to the native development of jet engines, and then continued by the influx of German jet technology.  I will come back to this.

 

Designer lineage

-- Kenichi Matsumura -- previously designed the Nakajima B6N (torpedo bomber) which was manufactured at Koizumi.  He also designed the Nakajima Ki-19 (twin-engine bomber), Nakajima G8N (four-engine bomber), among others, and was an advocate for the Nakajima Mamoru engine despite its complications. (DARK GOLD)

-- Kazuo Ohno -- was previously involved with the Nakajima J1N1 (twin-engine night-fighter) and the Nakajima J5N (twin-engine interceptor). (LIGHT GOLD)

-- Katsuji Nakamura -- was not directly involved in the Kikka but worked on the Nakajima B5N (prior to Matsumara's B6N) as well as the J1N and J5N with Ohno.

-- Lieutenant Commander Eiichi Iwaya wrote the specifications for what would become Nakajima J1N1, and acquired the BMW 003 blueprints for what would become the Ne-20 jet engine used in Kikka.

-- [the torpedo bombers are detailed here, J1N1 and J5N1 here]

 

Designs

-- Kikka's early concept involved use of the TSU-11 engine, like Kugisho MXY7 Ohka (Model 22) later projected to use the same Ne-20 engine (Model 53). 

-- Kikka's early concept involved jettisonable landing gear, like Kayaba Katsuodori, Mitsubishi J8M/Ki-200, Rikugun Ki-202.

-- Kikka had laminar flow wings, like the G8N designed previously by Matsumara (also used by C6N reconnaissance aircraft produced at same location).

-- Kikka had folding wings, like the B6N designed previously by Matsumara, to operate from compact spaces (carriers for B6N, caves for Kikka).

-- Kikka had swept-back wings, like the Kayaba Katsuodori a native development then in concept, and generally the Me 262 of similar layout.

-- Kikka had droop ailerons to compensate for heavy wing loading, which may have been introduced by the Kawasaki Ki-78, in turn influenced by Me 209.

-- Kikka had a tricycle landing gear, like the G8N, the canard Kyushu J7W, and projected Ki-201 of layout generally similar to the Me 262

-- Kikka's landing gear was the same as that used on the Mitsubishi A6M, which was also manufactured by Nakajima at Koizumi.

-- Kikka's nose wheel was the same as that used on the tail of the Kugisho P1Y Ginga, which was also manufactured by Nakajima at Koizumi.

-- Kikka was flight tested with RATO assist, like Kawanishi N1K1-J, Kayaba Katsuodori, Mitsubishi Ki-109.

-- Kikka's unusual or unique concepts include triangular-form fuselage, empennage, canopy sliding mechanism.

-- Kikka No.1 was painted in IJN dark green.

 

Manufacture location

-- Nakajima produced for the Army at their Ota plant (GREEN).

-- Nakajima produced for the Navy at their Koizumi plant (GOLDas well as P1Y which was also produced by Kawanishi)

 

Kikka placement challenge

-- There is so far no precedent for the aircraft from which Kikka originates.  Those include the human-guided missiles as used on P1Y (Ohka); the torpedo bombers that lack forward armament; the J1N1 twin-engine night-fighter;  the J5N1 twin-engine interceptor (canceled); twin-engine or four-engine bombers, or the Kayaba Katsuodori point-defense interceptor.

 

Kikka conclusion

There are essentially four methods by which Nakajima Kikka can be truthfully integrated:

1. by relationship to Ohka -- The first avenue is to emphasize engine development and relationship to Ohka via the Ohka bomb module carried by Kugisho P1Y3 which is itself the route to Kugisho R2Y2.  If that is done, then the question would be whether or not developers intend to invite long-range bombing from altitude or not, and whether or not they are comfortable with that bomb module having a cockpit that implies suicidal ideation.  The manner of handling pilot death currently in the game is to simply have him disappear as his plane is engulfed in flames.  One historical detail about the Ohka is that the pilot actually resided in the parent aircraft until it was time to launch, at which time he would climb down into the cockpit from the parent belly, seal the cockpit, and go about his business.  I take this to mean that if Ohka were in-game, you would not see a pilot in the Ohka while it resides on the parent aircraft, only while in flight to his destination (which you wouldn't see yourself unless you were close enough to try and shoot him down before he gets to his destination -- in other words no different than shooting at another aircraft, or observing someone crash into a ship or building).  That's the story and it would lead to unique/interesting gameplay, should they decide to employ it.  [For other countries, similar gameplay might involve the interception of V-1 flying bombs by Hawker aircraft, Gloster Meteor, D.H. Mosquito.  There is so far no precedent for this but it could really elevate the game to a whole new level].

2. by continuation from B7A -- The second avenue, more conventional, would be to consider it as an extension of the Aichi B7A (which was itself the junction of D- and B-series) as Carl_the_Cuttlefish suggested months ago.  This would require decompression of the Aichi line which works against the challenge of low forward armament and speed while loaded.  If forward armament can be imagined, and if given speeds can be considered to be speeds while outfitted with bombs, then this could be a reasonable alternative.

3. by continuation from J5N1 -- A third option, also conventional but requiring fictionalized progression; more research is needed along these lines because there is very little information available [see here for now].

4. by extension from Katsuodori -- A fourth option (avoiding Aichi decompression and Ohka entirely) would be to have the Kikka achieved via the Kayaba Katsuodori based on its related concepts identified above.  This is conceptually true but deviates from other indicators of progression.

 

I will update to include the historical narrative and engine development, it is profound.

 

Beyond Kikka

-- The only evidence for follow-on development of the Kikka, based on sources that I have seen in English, concerns the continuation of the Ne-20 engine after 1953 that is ultimately utilized in the Fuji T1F2 jet trainer.  There is obscure reference in Flight Magazine archive to a Fuji FJT-51, a development of (or from) jet trainer (presumably the T1), but I have not been able to find any information published.  Perhaps Fuji archives would have the details. [see this post for other post-war leads.]

 


 

The Gray Line

While looking at locations in detail for Kikka I discovered that there is a clear relationship between these aircraft produced by Mitsubishi at Nagoya for the Army, and those by Kawasaki:

 

 

75mm cannon

The Mitsubishi Ki-30, 51, 71 progression would be like Wirraway with emphasis on maneuverability.  Employed in China.  Ki-67 was used as a torpedo bomber for both services before being adapted to use 75mm cannon.  It is an interesting progression from that factory, but because it hinges on the inclusion of 75mm ant-aircraft cannon for Ki-109, I don't think it would be the developers' first choice for an attack line (as they said in a Question-Answer session about a year ago).  It does not necessarily mean exclusion of Ki-93, though, because the Ki-93 also uses 57mm in continuation of and in common with the Ki-102.

 

Ki-46 (reconnaissance) progression shown above only because it establishes the context for Tomio Kubo's Ki-83 which is so far unprecedented in game.  This is why I have endeavored to relate Ki-83 conceptually from Ki-64 (by way of Ki-73's projected use of coupled liquid-cooled engines).

 

The Pink Line

The Kawasaki Ki-32 is eclipsed by Ki-30 (built to same spec).  Ki-48 is eclipsed by other twin-engine bombers as it becomes a testbed for ramjet engines, guided missiles, modifications as a dive bomber, and ultimately suicide attacks.

 


 

Minor updates

-- Aichi D1A2 (a.k.a. D2A) brought to Tier III, and D3A brought to Tier IV.  This is to be consistent with their chronology, and naming conventions relative to other aircraft.

-- Kusho D4Y brought to Tier V, parallel to Aichi.  This is favorable for chronology, shared design concepts, and designer lineage with P1Y.  If Aichi line is to be decompressed (such as for Kikka integration), then D4Y stays there, while M6A and B7A get uptiered to Tier VI and VII respectively; this would favor their chronological relationship to their neighbors while remaining consistent with their engine progression.

-- moved Nakajima (Army production at Ota facility -- GREEN) closer to Kugisho to indicate Nakajima's production for the Navy at Koizumi (GOLD and some PURPLE).  Given the relationships established above (such as Ohka, Kikka, Katsuodori) it makes sense to do that.

 


 

Future updates

-- other (foreign) aircraft as potential premiums, such as the Nakajima Bulldog.

-- other adaptations as potential premiums, such as the Ki-46 modified for duty as an interceptor.

-- the "Gray Line" of Mitsubishi aircraft for the Army in detail.

-- Kasei and Kinsei engine progression may be made more accurate by looking at progression for bombers, flying boats, transports.

-- closer look at Nakajima J1N1 (night fighter) and relationship to Nakajima J5N1, Aichi S1A and relationship to Kawanishi P1Y (development as night fighter).  This may involve zeroing in on the use of radar and/or use as an all-weather fighter, as Ki-201 was projected to be.  I have seen no mention of Kikka planned use of radar so there is another factor working against their union despite relationship in common with general layout of Me 262.

-- guided munitions such as those for Ki-102.


Edited by J311yfish, 10 October 2015 - 10:33 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


Hochstepanzerjager #203 Posted 08 July 2015 - 09:33 PM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 0 battles
  • 581
  • [SBSDZ] SBSDZ
  • Member since:
    02-08-2013

Damn, Jelly, they should just hire you.

 

I did notice the Val missing from your tree though. Would that be a candidate for GA I take it?




"Fly with your head, not with your muscles" - Maj. Erich Hartmann


J311yfish #204 Posted 08 July 2015 - 11:31 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View PostHochstepanzerjager, on 08 July 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

Damn, Jelly, they should just hire you.

 

I have not been contacted.  If they do happen to read this -- I would not turn down an opportunity to work remotely, if the hours are flexible and objectives are clear.  This has until now been an enjoyable hobby and I would like to keep it that way.

 

View PostHochstepanzerjager, on 08 July 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

I did notice the Val missing from your tree though. Would that be a candidate for GA I take it?

 

The Aichi D3A ("Val") is there at tier IV with its chronological counterpart the Zero.  I do not think it would be considered a "ground attack" aircraft, but rather a "multi-role" aircraft, as the Blackburn Skua dive bomber is designated for the U.K.  The narrative for the Val indicates that once it delivered its payload, it functioned reasonably well as a fighter:

 

-- "After delivering its bombs the D3A1 was sufficiently well armed and maneuverable to put up a creditable fight against the Allied fighters then in service." (Munson, 102)

-- "... the aircraft became highly maneuverable, a characteristic which enabled it occasionally to be used as a fighter despite the fact that armament comprised only two forward-firing 7.7mm Type 97 machine guns and one flexible rear-firing 7.7mm Type 92 machine gun." (Francillon, 272)

 

There are other details here.  I do hope that we might see it someday!


Edited by J311yfish, 09 July 2015 - 10:11 AM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #205 Posted 09 July 2015 - 03:11 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Mitsubishi Ki-18 given as reward plane on EU server

http://worldofwarpla...inged-samurais/

 


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


DemitriVritra_US #206 Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:15 PM

    Airman Basic

  • Member
  • 1272 battles
  • 7
  • Member since:
    06-23-2013

Jelly I'm disappointed in you if that's all you have for heavy fighters,
Ki-46 IIIB and Ki-46 III Kai both are heavy fighters,
J1N1 and all of its Variants, also heavy fighters (even some jets there)
now getting into the Prototypes
Aichi S1A Denko
also some other aircraft but too lazy to dig through the whole list but I mean just the J1N1 could really fill out the late tiers with all it has.
but yeah



J311yfish #207 Posted 10 July 2015 - 01:49 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

The aircraft you mention have been accounted for.

-- Mitsubishi Ki-46 is here under Tier VII alternates, and Nakajima J1N1 under Tier V alternates.

-- Aichi S1A is here under Tier VII.

 

If you think that a logical case can be made for their progression, go ahead and make the case.

If you think that essential details are missing, go ahead and name the sources.


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


DemitriVritra_US #208 Posted 11 July 2015 - 03:20 AM

    Airman Basic

  • Member
  • 1272 battles
  • 7
  • Member since:
    06-23-2013

View PostJ311yfish, on 10 July 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

The aircraft you mention have been accounted for.

-- Mitsubishi Ki-46 is here under Tier VII alternates, and Nakajima J1N1 under Tier V alternates.

-- Aichi S1A is here under Tier VII.

 

If you think that a logical case can be made for their progression, go ahead and make the case.

If you think that essential details are missing, go ahead and name the sources.

 

well for one Ki-46's Tier 7 is far too high since 7.7mm round in the right places will easily set one ablaze, and the 4B only had 2 20mm's in the nose the difference between a 4B and a 3B is 4B's engines have turbo chargers so it's a simple engine upgrade, Before the Ki-46 became the Ki-46 recon it started off as part of a long range heavy fighter Project, it was one of three designs it dropped out because Mitsubishi was putting more resources into other projects, Nakajima also dropped their project, so Kawasaki being the last one remaining and being the most completed project back in 1937, which became what we know as the Ki-45, well in a act of desperation and somewhat flawed thinking the IJA thought " well we have all these high speed recons that can get up to altitude quickly and are fast, and they were part of this earlier project, can we convert them to what they were first intended to be?" so we got the IIIB night fighter/ground attack aircraft "okay okay we are having troubles with bombers, last add a 37mm in a schrange Music configuration and try to shoot them out of the sky" so they gave it a lengthened fuselage added the 37mm cannon to the center, and gave it a crate of anti air bombs, rather then small bombs there were more or less like hand grenades used against ground targets, and they tried that, which had very Limited success there is one incident of a ki-46 III Kai, severely crippling a B29 but it's 20mm cannon fire was ineffective.

not sure if that is a good argument as to why it should be added, tho unless you count the early prototypes the first military used Ki-45's were the Kai's, and as far as the J1N's go one was designed with Jet Engines and the J1N's were probably Japans Most valuable Heavy fighters in WWII accomplishing Multiple Kills on B29's and B17's, the J1n Accomplished more then the Ki-45's

also Change your Picture of the Ki-46, only the III Ko had the rounded nose, all other Ki-46's had the same nose/fuselage if you disregard the III Kai being 11 cm longer. a IIIB and a KAi look virtually Identically except one has a 37mm cannon jutting out the center, and a 4B would look exactly like a 3B but like I said before the only difference would be the engines, so you could easily use the Kai as a second fuselage, and have the 4B's engines as an upgrade, but at best your are looking around the same tiers or lower as the Ki-45 and the J1N Gekko being better armed and performing at a higher spot.

so what you could do to get around the Numbering confusion is you can introduce the Ki-46 Assault planes under their prototype predecessors the Ki-39 or Ki-40 which they were designed under, so you could put them before the Ki-45 who has A the Same engines, and B better Armament.

J311yfish #209 Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:50 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

well for one Ki-46's Tier 7 is far too high since 7.7mm round in the right places will easily set one ablazeand the 4B only had 2 20mm's in the nose the difference between a 4B and a 3B is 4B's engines have turbo chargers so it's a simple engine upgrade

 

There is no metric to evaluate airframe durability.  It might be possible to identify critical points (such as location of fuel tanks, oil coolers, etc.) through the narrative or close evaluation of drawings, pictures, or models, but that is beyond the scope of what I have tried to achieve here.  I have favored engine progression and chronology to determine tiers because both are reliably graduated.

 

The assignment of Ki-46 to Tier VII is an approximation based on the 1500hp Kinsei engine that is also used in-game for the A6M5 (in reality A6M8 Model 54c).  It is the last available engine for A6M5 and has been determined to be a Tier VII engine.  Could the Ki-46 be brought down to Tier VI on account of its diminished armament or potential lack of durability?  Sure.  How would you measure that?  You would have to look at chronology both horizontal and vertical to see how it fits in.  The variants you mention are stop-gap adaptations to be eclipsed by the Ki-83 by the same designer.  However you decide to place it though, one problem that you will not be able to overcome is the lack of identifiable progression.  You have identified one engine upgrade only with associated armament.  The rest would have to be fictionalized.  The assignment of Ki-46 as an "alternate" is recognition of the fact that progression is not easily represented.  Alternates happen to make good premium choices because they do not cannibalize identifiable progression, and selection as a premium keeps the historical progression premise intact.

 

A similar case exists for the J1N1.  The assignment of J1N1 to Tier V is an approximation based on the Sakae engine that is also used in-game for the A6M2.  It is the only engine use by the J1N1.  It is true that a variety of turret configurations were experimented with before success as a schrage-musik night fighter, but the turret concept is ultimately abandoned, and you have the problem of development to and from the J1N1.

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

Before the Ki-46 became the Ki-46 recon it started off as part of a long range heavy fighter Project, it was one of three designs it dropped out because Mitsubishi was putting more resources into other projects, Nakajima also dropped their project, so Kawasaki being the last one remaining and being the most completed project back in 1937, which became what we know as the Ki-45, 

 

I would be surprised if you found more than a sentence or two on any of those projects (Nakajima Ki-37, Kawasaki Ki-38, Mitsubishi Ki-39) in English.  There is just little to no information.

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

well in a act of desperation and somewhat flawed thinking the IJA thought " well we have all these high speed recons that can get up to altitude quickly and are fast, and they were part of this earlier project, can we convert them to what they were first intended to be?" so we got the IIIB night fighter/ground attack aircraft "okay okay we are having troubles with bombers, last add a 37mm in a schrange Music configuration and try to shoot them out of the sky" so they gave it a lengthened fuselage added the 37mm cannon to the center, and gave it a crate of anti air bombs, rather then small bombs there were more or less like hand grenades used against ground targets, and they tried that, which had very Limited success there is one incident of a ki-46 III Kai, severely crippling a B29 but it's 20mm cannon fire was ineffective.

 

Do you have a source for this narrative?  I have read Francillon.

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

not sure if that is a good argument as to why it should be added, tho unless you count the early prototypes the first military used Ki-45's were the Kai's, and as far as the J1N's go one was designed with Jet Engines and the J1N's were probably Japans Most valuable Heavy fighters in WWII accomplishing Multiple Kills on B29's and B17's, the J1n Accomplished more then the Ki-45's

 

Do you have a source for a jet-powered J1N1 design?  I have read Francillon, Mikesh, and Dyer.

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

also Change your Picture of the Ki-46, only the III Ko had the rounded nose, all other Ki-46's had the same nose/fuselage if you disregard the III Kai being 11 cm longer. a IIIB and a KAi look virtually Identically except one has a 37mm cannon jutting out the center, and a 4B would look exactly like a 3B but like I said before the only difference would be the engines, so you could easily use the Kai as a second fuselage, and have the 4B's engines as an upgrade, but at best your are looking around the same tiers or lower as the Ki-45 and the J1N Gekko being better armed and performing at a higher spot.

 

so what you could do to get around the Numbering confusion is you can introduce the Ki-46 Assault planes under their prototype predecessors the Ki-39 or Ki-40 which they were designed under, so you could put them before the Ki-45 who has A the Same engines, and B better Armament.

 

There is no evidence to support that.


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #210 Posted 11 July 2015 - 05:18 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

J1N1, Ki-46, Ki-83, and Kikka in context

 

This is the spectrum of reconnaissance aircraft, both land-based and carrier-based.  

 

Torpedo bombers and dive bombers are included to illustrate the relationship to Kikka identified above.

 

Tier Land-based recon (Army) (Army)

Land-based recon / interceptor (Navy)

Carrier-based recon (Navy) Torpedo bombers (Navy) Dive bombers (Navy)
II Nakajima Ki-4 (03/1934)       Kusho B4Y (late 1935) Aichi D1A1 (1934+)
III Mitsubishi Ki-15 (05/1936) / C5M1    

 

Nakajima C3N1 (10/1936)

Mitsubishi C5M1 (1938)

 

Nakajima B5N1 (05/1937)
 

Aichi D1A2 (1936+)

Nakajima D3N1 (03/1937)

 

IV Mitsubishi Ki-46-I (11/1939)     Mitsubishi C5M2 (1940) Nakajima B5N2 (12/1939) Aichi D3A (12/1937+)
V Mitsubishi Ki-46-II (03/1941)   Nakajima J1N1 (05/1941)  

Nakajima B6N1 (1941+)

Kusho D4Y (12/1940)
VI Mitsubishi Ki-46-III (12/1942) Tachikawa Ki-70 (02/1943)  

Nakajima C6N (05/1943)

Nakajima C6N1-S (1944-1945)

Nakajima C6N1-B 21 (P)

Nakajima B6N2 (06/1943)

 

 

 

Aichi B7A (05/1942+)

Kugisho P1Y1 (08/1943)

VII

Mitsubishi Ki-46-IV (02/1944)

  Mitsubishi Ki-46-III KAI (10/1944)

  Mitsubishi Ki-46-IIIb (03/1945)

Mitsubishi Ki-83/95 (10/1944) Nakajima J5N1 (07/1944)

Nakajima C6N2 (P)

Nakajima C6N3 (P)

Nakajima C6N4 (P)

  Kugisho P1Y3 (07/1945+)
VIII     Nakajima Kikka (08/1945)     Kugisho Tenga (1945+)
IX     Nakajima Kikka (continuation)      
X            

 

This is the 3rd way to get Kikka into the game based on chronological designer and role relationships.  It means down-tiering the J5N1 and using Ki-83 as a transition to Kikka.

 

V Nakajima J1N1 with Nakajima Sakae engine
VI Nakajima J5N1 with Nakajima Homare engine
VII Mitsubishi Ki-83 with Mitsubishi Kinsei engine
VIII Nakajima Kikka with Kugisho Ne-20 jet engine

 

It looks clean and reasonable, but relies on fictionalized module progression, denies the technological relationship of Ki-64 to Ki-83, and ignores the relationship of Kikka to Ohka.

 

Anyway, if Ki-64 somehow shows up as a premium then it could serve as an indicator that this method is favored.

 

This also illustrates that as far as progression is concerned, Ki-83 would be favorable to the Ki-46-III stopgaps.

 

A few pointed notes:

-- Ki-46 had also been employed by the Navy for reconnaissance, presumably due to performance eclipsing that of the J1N1.

-- Ki-46 was regarded for speed but not for climbing ability, hence the creation of Ki-83 by the same designer for the purpose of interception, and IJN interest.

-- Ki-83 was desired by the Navy but production (and designation) had not been finalized.

-- D4Y also used for reconnaissance, presumably due to performance eclipsing that of the J1N1, and also due to structural limitation early in development.

-- Night fighter role with oblique armament was continued after J1N1 by P1Y, C6N, A6M, etc. even though the surprise element was lost.

-- J1N1 built at Koizumi, J5N1 not specified (presumably same), Ki-83 not specified (presumably Toyama following 12/1944 Nagoya earthquake), Kikka at Koizumi before dispersed manufacture.


Edited by J311yfish, 11 July 2015 - 06:59 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


DemitriVritra_US #211 Posted 11 July 2015 - 07:57 PM

    Airman Basic

  • Member
  • 1272 battles
  • 7
  • Member since:
    06-23-2013

View PostJ311yfish, on 11 July 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

 

There is no metric to evaluate airframe durability.  It might be possible to identify critical points (such as location of fuel tanks, oil coolers, etc.) through the narrative or close evaluation of drawings, pictures, or models, but that is beyond the scope of what I have tried to achieve here.  I have favored engine progression and chronology to determine tiers because both are reliably graduated.

 

The assignment of Ki-46 to Tier VII is an approximation based on the 1500hp Kinsei engine that is also used in-game for the A6M5 (in reality A6M8 Model 54c).  It is the last available engine for A6M5 and has been determined to be a Tier VII engine.  Could the Ki-46 be brought down to Tier VI on account of its diminished armament or potential lack of durability?  Sure.  How would you measure that?  You would have to look at chronology both horizontal and vertical to see how it fits in.  The variants you mention are stop-gap adaptations to be eclipsed by the Ki-83 by the same designer.  However you decide to place it though, one problem that you will not be able to overcome is the lack of identifiable progression.  You have identified one engine upgrade only with associated armament.  The rest would have to be fictionalized.  The assignment of Ki-46 as an "alternate" is recognition of the fact that progression is not easily represented.  Alternates happen to make good premium choices because they do not cannibalize identifiable progression, and selection as a premium keeps the historical progression premise intact.

 

A similar case exists for the J1N1.  The assignment of J1N1 to Tier V is an approximation based on the Sakae engine that is also used in-game for the A6M2.  It is the only engine use by the J1N1.  It is true that a variety of turret configurations were experimented with before success as a schrage-musik night fighter, but the turret concept is ultimately abandoned, and you have the problem of development to and from the J1N1.

 

 

I would be surprised if you found more than a sentence or two on any of those projects (Nakajima Ki-37, Kawasaki Ki-38, Mitsubishi Ki-39) in English.  There is just little to no information.

 

 

Do you have a source for this narrative?  I have read Francillon.

 

 

Do you have a source for a jet-powered J1N1 design?  I have read Francillon, Mikesh, and Dyer.

 

 

There is no evidence to support that.

 

I've never put much into francillon cause honestly he was a french hack, just the projected stats on some of the stuff he puts in his books are so off the mark from when they were actually tested in comparison, especially in regards to the weapons. Spent six months researching the Ki-46 for a proposal for another game, the Ki-46 assualt aircraft were made to fulfill a need while the IIIB was an excellent ground assault aircraft the III Kai was a bit of a failure of a interceptor, and the over all design from Ki-39, Ki-40 and Ki-46 did not change much according to what I looked up, especially in regards to the nose tail and wings, other then some slight lengthening.

In regards to a Ki-46 III Kai severely damaging a B29, that is part of a report that can be found in the Japanese Archives and is really the only known success story, I first found mention of it in a russian aviation history site, and then had someone confirm the actuality of it at the archives. the B29 flew away smoking and crippled and the Kill was never confirmed ergo why I just list it as severely damaged. also if you take the time to look into the heavy fighter proposal the three projects were trying to fulfill, there is specifications on armament, and top speed.

a Good Premium would probably be the Mitsubishi-Payen Pa.400, other planes worth looking into Kayaba Katsoudori, Rikugun Kogiken series of planes.

and if you had Read Dyer as you claimed, you'd know he makes a rather nice Mention of the J1N Jet design in his book Experimental Aircraft of The IJA and IJN 1939-1945.

 

J311yfish #212 Posted 11 July 2015 - 10:43 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

 

I've never put much into francillon cause honestly he was a french hack, just the projected stats on some of the stuff he puts in his books are so off the mark from when they were actually tested in comparison, especially in regards to the weapons. 

 

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that he is a hack? and, if he is wrong on one count, am I to understand that the entire scope of his work is to be ignored?

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

Spent six months researching the Ki-46 for a proposal for another game, the Ki-46 assualt aircraft were made to fulfill a need while the IIIB was an excellent ground assault aircraft the III Kai was a bit of a failure of a interceptor, and the over all design from Ki-39, Ki-40 and Ki-46 did not change much according to what I looked up, especially in regards to the nose tail and wings, other then some slight lengthening.

 

In your six months of research, were you able to obtain any verifiable facts?  If so, what were your sources?

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

In regards to a Ki-46 III Kai severely damaging a B29, that is part of a report that can be found in the Japanese Archives and is really the only known success story, I first found mention of it in a russian aviation history site, and then had someone confirm the actuality of it at the archives. the B29 flew away smoking and crippled and the Kill was never confirmed ergo why I just list it as severely damaged. 

 

Are you saying that an entire line of progression through reconnaissance aircraft should be constructed?  Or do you propose some other mechanism to bring a one-off adaptation of a reconnaissance aircraft into the fold?  If so, what is the basis for placement other than whimsy?

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

 also if you take the time to look into the heavy fighter proposal the three projects were trying to fulfill, there is specifications on armament, and top speed.

 

If you are referring to the Nakajima Ki-37, Kawasaki Ki-38, and Mitsubishi Ki-39/40 design studies initiated 1937 -- there is very little information.  How do you propose to implement them without verifiable facts?

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

a Good Premium would probably be the Mitsubishi-Payen Pa.400, other planes worth looking into Kayaba Katsoudori, Rikugun Kogiken series of planes.

 

Mitsubishi-Payen Pa.400 has been discussed earlier in this thread.  Dyer claims that the technical information was not released to Japan, even though the French government authorized the release 09/28/1938, and that Mitsubishi did not pursue the matter further. (Dyer, 101)  Do you disagree with that?

 

Kayaba Katsuodori is accounted for here.  The only information available comes from Dyer.

 

Rikugun Kogiken series have also been discussed earlier in this thread, but okay:

 

Rikugun Kogiken Series (summer 1941)

 -- "None of the Kogiken aircraft would be constructed.  In part, this was due to the designs using technology that was either in development or not yet available.  Another factor was the unorthodox nature of many of the aircraft drafted -- one might liken the Kogiken aircraft to the results of a brainstorming with minimal restrictions on what might be deemed possible.  Nevertheless, the study was not a wasted effort and it is certainly reasonable to presume that the information provided valuable data and worthwhile methods for subsequent IJA aircraft.  For example, the Kawasaki Ki-64 would use the Ha-201 coupled engine with a surface evaporation cooling system.  Another example was the Kawasaki Ki-88 which was to use a fuselage-buried Ha-140 engine that drove the propeller via an extension shaft.  The Mitsubishi Ki-46-III (code-named Dinah by the Allies) may have also benefitted from some of the aerodynamic streamlining studies done by Kogiken." (Dyer, 49)

 

Do you disagree with that?

 

View PostDemitriVritra_US, on 11 July 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

and if you had Read Dyer as you claimed, you'd know he makes a rather nice Mention of the J1N Jet design in his book Experimental Aircraft of The IJA and IJN 1939-1945.

 

I guess I'm generous.  Here is the exact text:

 

Nakajima J1N1

 -- "In combat, the Gekko proved satisfactory against the Consolidated B-24 Liberator, but against the faster Boeing B-29 Superfortress was hard pressed to make a single attack.  Therefore, it should not be surprising that the J1N was considered as a candidate to be equipped with two turbojets.  Successful as a reconnaissance platform as well as a night fighter, replacing the radial engines with turbojets would have provided the J1N with a superior speed that would have served it well in either role.  A contemporary illustration of the turbojet equipped J1N shows the fuselage of a J1N1-Sa.  The illustration lacks the upward firing cannon and radar which suggests it was equipped with the nose mounted cannon as its armament.  Perhaps it may have worked in conjunction with radar and/or searchlight equipped J1N1-S and J1N1-Sa during combat missions, or it may have been considered as a fast special attacker fitted with two 551 lb [250 kg] bombs.  The wings seem to have been unaltered outside of the required modifications to fit the nacelles for the turbojets.  As to what jet engines were to be introduced is not known.  The Kugisho Ne 20 was certainly a candidate as was the Nakajima Ne-230.  The adaptation of the J1N to jet power would likely have been an easier task than that faced by Kugisho in adapting the P1Y1 Ginga into the turbojet bomber Tenga. // Exactly when the proposal to modify the J1N to a turbojet aircraft was made is unknown.  What is known is that it did not progress past the drafting board." (Dyer, 112)

 

If you read that closely, you will see that Dyer is describing a modern illustration and speculating about how it might have worked had it been brought to reality.  There are zero details to carry it further than that.

 

I think it would be fair to point out that the definitive work on the Nakajima J1N1 is not by Edwin Dyer (1 page of text and 1 illustration), nor is it by Francillon (6 pages of text and illustration), but rather Robert Mikesh, the curator at the National Air and Space Museum that  worked to restore the last J1N1 in existence.  The book is called Moonlight Interceptor - Japan's 'Irving' Night Fighter (Smithsonian Institute Press 1985).  It is 108 pages (112 if you count the bibliography) with an extensive bibliography (56 sources in English and Japanese, to include public documents, books, journal articles, original JNAF wartime unit records, and microfilm copies of U.S. Naval Intelligence reports).  There is absolutely zero mention of J1N1 modification for jet power.  Furthermore, if you read also the history of jet engine development in Japan (such as Turbojet History and Development 1930-1960, Volume 2, by Antony L. Kay (2007 Crowood Press) -- 13 pages devoted to Japan), I think you will find that the chronology does not favor such a claim.  I could go further on that point but I will just stop there.

 

I have no interest in jousting over how aircraft should be portrayed in a Japanese tech tree that has so far not been implemented.  I'm interested in the facts, and so long as you are willing to bring those, I think you'll find a good discussion here.


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #213 Posted 19 July 2015 - 02:59 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Airfoils

-- this is just another way to look at data

-- primary source -- unverified information

 

Key:

 

Findings:

 

 

Mitsubishi (Navy)

 

Kawanishi Kyushu (Navy)

 

Aichi / Kusho / Kugisho Nakajima (Navy)

 

 

Nakajima Rikugun (Army)

 

Kawasaki Tachikawa (Army)

 

Kawasaki Tachikawa / Nakajima (Army)

 


 

Premiums

 

Alternates

 

Omitted


Edited by J311yfish, 27 July 2015 - 09:29 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #214 Posted 06 August 2015 - 03:08 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

minor update

-- added technical detail and narrative for A6M1, A6M2, A6M5.

-- added A6M3 to Tier V Alternates -- essentially an A6M2 with square-tipped wings, with a corresponding minor increase in speed, some of which were upgraded to 30mm's.

-- added A6M4 to Tier V Alternates -- essentially an A6M2 with an experimental turbosupercharger for better performance at altitude.

 

future

-- looking for detail on A6M5c and A6M6c, both of which were equipped with 4x30kg rockets.


Edited by J311yfish, 22 August 2015 - 08:08 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


hwang_fighter #215 Posted 27 August 2015 - 06:08 AM

    Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3 battles
  • 69
  • [WORD] WORD
  • Member since:
    08-22-2014
Great ideas but the creators don't take time to realize how good these planes are, all they want is a premium two winged propellerd plane that will make them money, they should take the time to see these great ideas.

J311yfish #216 Posted 27 August 2015 - 11:54 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Minor update

 

Time away sometimes allows you to see with fresh eyes.  I have identified the most glaring areas of concern (in my opinion) that might need some refinement.  They are:

 

BLUE BOX

Mitsubishi J2M -- chronological concern -- protracted development somewhat parallel to the Kawanishi N1K1-J, which was ultimately favored.  J2M continued with diminished production.  Might be possible to have it span Tier V and VI, such as J2M2 and J2M3, or J2M2 and J2M5, it is too fine a point to debate and ultimately up to developers.

 

PURPLE BOX

This is the most radical area and consequently there are several ways this area could be implemented -- whether or not the Aichi M6A Seiran is allowed, whether or not 'night fighter' is a distinguishable role, and whether or not Kugisho Ohka and Kawanishi Baika (parasite suicide high-yield rocket-powered bombs) are permitted.  On the conservative side, something like D3A, D4Y, B7A, Kikka (as Carl the Cuttlefish identified) might be implemented.  On the radical side, as shown above.  Of course minor variation is possible ultimately up to developers.

 

ORANGE BOX

This is an area of concern just because the aircraft there are outliers, loosely related by concept and role.  There is no direct relationship between the Ki-83, Ki-94-I, and Ki-201, for example, yet they are all twin-engine (coupled or not) high-altitude heavy fighters.  The relationship between Ki-201 and Kikka is also not direct, though both are inspired or developed from the Me 262.  Ultimately up to developers.

 

GRAY BOX

There are several aircraft that could be used to lead up to Ki-45, as identified previously, they are the Mitsubishi Ki-30, Kawasaki Ki-32, Tachikawa Ki-36, for example.  It is a finer point and ultimately up to developers.

 

All of this to say that it is a waiting game to see how this might turn out.

 


Edited by J311yfish, 27 August 2015 - 11:55 AM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #217 Posted 03 October 2015 - 04:07 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Changes to Japanese planes on test server for update 1.9:

-- for simplicity sake, only changes are noted

-- for simplicity sake, only maximum configurations are noted

-- major changes good / bad


 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Type 91

Weight -20kg

Firepower -2

Airspeed -2

Maneuverability -3

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s +0.2

- Rate of Roll, deg/s +1

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

A4N

Weight +10kg

Firepower -8

Airspeed -6

Maneuverability -7

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s +0.2

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -1


 

Ki-33

Weight +10kg

Firepower -5


 

A5M

Weight +20kg

Firepower -9

Airspeed -3

Maneuverability

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s +0.1


 

A6M1

Weight +50kg

Firepower +2

Airspeed -2

Maneuverability -2

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- no change

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change


 

A6M2

Weight +50kg

Firepower -4

Airspeed -- no change

Maneuverability -- no change


 

Ki-88

Weight +50kg

Firepower -45

Airspeed -- no change

Maneuverability +1

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- no change

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change


 

A6M5

Hitpoint -10

Weight +50kg

Firepower +27

Airspeed -- no change

Maneuverability -- no change


 

A7M

Weight +60kg

Firepower +34

Airspeed -1

Maneuverability -1

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- no change

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change


 

J4M

Weight +50kg

Firepower -106

Airspeed +2

Maneuverability -- no change


 

J8M

Firepower -55


 

J7W1

Hit Points +40

Firepower -186

Airspeed -28

Maneuverability +3

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- -0.3

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- +1

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

J7W2

Hit Points +30

Firepower -181

Airspeed -5

Maneuverability +4

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- -1.5

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- -5

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

J7W3

Hit Points +73

Firepower -181

Airspeed -21

Maneuverability +15

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- -3.4

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change

- Controllability +1

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

Conclusions

-- of course this is all out of context (due to changes to other aircraft as well), but it indicates that the largest balance pass concerning Japan appears to be from Tier VI-X.

-- Weight changes may be related to ammo or equipment upgrade changes

-- Firepower changes may be the result of recalculation associated with optimal distances.


Edited by J311yfish, 03 October 2015 - 04:08 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


J311yfish #218 Posted 11 October 2015 - 12:58 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

I have been working on a comprehensive timeline for Japanese aircraft development in order to establish context and account for these things in detail:

 

  • significant technological milestones achieved by other countries -- Ex. Boeing P-26
  • significant combat operations/initiatives -- Ex: Guadalcanal -- because they influence the specifications issued
  • specification issue date
  • design start date
  • design completed date
  • prototype completed date
  • prototype first flight date
  • service acceptance date
  • service deployment date
  • operational first encounter dates
  • production start/end dates

 

Basically, all relevant dates pulled from Francillon, Mikesh, Bueschel, Rosholt, Green, Weiliczko, Jarrett, Shores, Sharpe, Munson, Bowers, Guttman, Januszekski, Abel, Nohara, Nijboer, Dyer, etc., and Wikipedia only when necessary for approximations or undisputed events.
 

The goal is to establish a 100% reliable and objective context from which development can be made clear and obvious, technological lead/lag can be identified, and assumptions can be challenged.  The results so far are very interesting, at nearly 20 pages in length.  For example:

 

  • the shift in strategy associated with the outcome of major combat operations -- Ex: Nakajima J1N1, Kugisho Ohka, Nakajima Kikka
  • the reaction of aircraft designs/modifications to combat operations -- Ex: Kawasaki Ki-45
  • the history of American involvement in China (continuous from 9 years before Pearl Harbor) -- Ex: Robert Short, CAMCO, AVG


 It is too early to know how this might effect a proper tech tree for Japan, but it should certainly help to clear up any discrepancies, such as:
 

  • Kawasaki Type 92, Ki-5, Ki-10, Ki-28; and Kawasaki Ki-3, Ki-32 -- exact relationships for tiers II and III
  • Aichi D3A, Kusho D4Y, Aichi M6A, Aichi B7A -- exact transitions for tiers IV, V, VI, VII
  • Mitsubishi J2M1, J2M2, J2M3, J2M4, J2M5 -- if possible for tiers V, VI, VII

 

There are already some interesting points with respect to China, for example:

  • Jimmy Doolittle demonstrating a Hawk II at Shien Chiao in 1933 (9 years before the Doolittle Raid)
  • The arrival of American Vultee V-11's, Northrop Gammas, and Boeing P-26C's in 1934 at a time when the Japanese were still trying to make the transition to monoplane designs.
  • The first flight of the Fu-hsing two seat biplane in 1936, developed in China by Constantine Zakhartchenko, a designer affiliated with the McDonnell Aircraft company.
  • The arrival of Chennault by way of Japan in 1937, with various roles played until the end of the war.
  • The destruction of imported militarized Bellanca 28-90B's by the Japanese in 1937 before they could even get off the ground.
  • Martin bombers flown by Chinese pilots to drop propaganda leaflets over Kyushu in 1938.  The following month a specification is issued for what becomes the J1N1.
  • Curtiss CW-21 Demons assembled by CAMCO at Loiwing 2 months before the A6M1 takes its first flight in 1939.
  • Recruitment for 1st American Volunteer Group pilots begins 2 days after the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact in 1941 (7 months before Pearl Harbor)
  • "Tiger Zero" A6M2 recovered by the AVG 12 days before Pearl Harbor, 7 months before the "Akutan Zero," and 12 months before formation of Technical Air Intelligence Units.
  • 1st American Volunteer Group commences operations 2 weeks after Pearl Harbor because they're already ready.
  • An unarmed J1N1 encounters a modified North American B-25B from the Doolittle Raid over Yokohama 04/18/1942.

Edited by J311yfish, 11 October 2015 - 07:49 PM.

Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures


cqiyuan #219 Posted 12 October 2015 - 10:18 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 249 battles
  • 1,058
  • [X3M] X3M
  • Member since:
    05-22-2014

View PostJ311yfish, on 03 October 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Changes to Japanese planes on test server for update 1.9:

-- for simplicity sake, only changes are noted

-- for simplicity sake, only maximum configurations are noted

-- major changes good / bad


 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Type 91

Weight -20kg

Firepower -2

Airspeed -2

Maneuverability -3

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s +0.2

- Rate of Roll, deg/s +1

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

A4N

Weight +10kg

Firepower -8

Airspeed -6

Maneuverability -7

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s +0.2

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -1


 

Ki-33

Weight +10kg

Firepower -5


 

A5M

Weight +20kg

Firepower -9

Airspeed -3

Maneuverability

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s +0.1


 

A6M1

Weight +50kg

Firepower +2

Airspeed -2

Maneuverability -2

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- no change

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change


 

A6M2

Weight +50kg

Firepower -4

Airspeed -- no change

Maneuverability -- no change


 

Ki-88

Weight +50kg

Firepower -45

Airspeed -- no change

Maneuverability +1

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- no change

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change


 

A6M5

Hitpoint -10

Weight +50kg

Firepower +27

Airspeed -- no change

Maneuverability -- no change


 

A7M

Weight +60kg

Firepower +34

Airspeed -1

Maneuverability -1

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- no change

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change


 

J4M

Weight +50kg

Firepower -106

Airspeed +2

Maneuverability -- no change


 

J8M

Firepower -55


 

J7W1

Hit Points +40

Firepower -186

Airspeed -28

Maneuverability +3

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- -0.3

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- +1

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

J7W2

Hit Points +30

Firepower -181

Airspeed -5

Maneuverability +4

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- -1.5

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- -5

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

J7W3

Hit Points +73

Firepower -181

Airspeed -21

Maneuverability +15

- Average Time to Turn 350 deg, s -- -3.4

- Rate of Roll, deg/s -- no change

- Controllability +1

(numbers with bombs equipped)


 

Conclusions

-- of course this is all out of context (due to changes to other aircraft as well), but it indicates that the largest balance pass concerning Japan appears to be from Tier VI-X.

-- Weight changes may be related to ammo or equipment upgrade changes

-- Firepower changes may be the result of recalculation associated with optimal distances.

 

Thx for the change note above. Guess its time to continue flying ZEROS


J311yfish #220 Posted 19 October 2015 - 10:53 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2603 battles
  • 1,359
  • [343] 343
  • Member since:
    12-13-2013

Updated main image to show more background detail.


Main tech tree projects:   JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  •  UNITED STATES    GERMANY  •  USSR  // aircraft to China

Europe tech tree projects:  ITALY    FRANCE    SWEDEN    Finland (skins•  Poland  •  International  //  Retired projects:  China    Brazil

Historical scenarios:  Spanish Civil War (skins•  Invasion of Poland  •  Winter War  •  Continuation War

Map proposals:   Panama Canal    Great Wall of China    Cliffs of Dover   //  Clan:  343 Kokutai  //  Tutorial:  How to ignore forum posts and signatures






Also tagged with Japan, Mitsubishi, Aichi, Kawanishi, Kyushu, Kawasaki, Nakajima, Tachikawa, Mansyu, Rikugun

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users