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[spoiler] what the Japanese tech tree could look like

Japan Mitsubishi Aichi Kawanishi Kyushu Kawasaki Nakajima Tachikawa Mansyu Rikugun

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Commander_Rasseru #21 Posted 26 February 2014 - 01:17 PM

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View PostWolcott, on 26 February 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

 

But that would be fantasy and not historical. Simply following what you suggested would be twisting history.


Then the Kyushu J7W with a jet engine is fantasy. It was planned with no working model made. Looking at World of Tanks, you might see tanks that was never built or tested. So WG had to guess what they could do. How that would be different in World of Warplanes with designs that weren't finished? Not too hard to mount armaments in the body frame or outside of the plane. Being close to historical realism is better than having missing planes that could weaken a tech tree design.



Demon93IT #22 Posted 26 February 2014 - 01:58 PM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 26 February 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:


Then the Kyushu J7W with a jet engine is fantasy. It was planned with no working model made. Looking at World of Tanks, you might see tanks that was never built or tested. So WG had to guess what they could do. How that would be different in World of Warplanes with designs that weren't finished? Not too hard to mount armaments in the body frame or outside of the plane. Being close to historical realism is better than having missing planes that could weaken a tech tree design.

Well the piston engine was a placeholder, you consider it a fantasy because(fortunately) Truman decided to nuke Japan instead of invading it. Same goes for many other project of theirs which would have owned any American counterpart if they would have got enough time.

 

You said to add stuff to planes already finished even though they weren't considered by the designers. That's different from making a project which was considered by its designers like the jet engine on the Shinden.

 

In any case the Japanese tech tree has problems in the GAA branch:

1)The developed planes have years between them

2)Japan had other priorities in the final stages of WWII so any GAA was developed

3)A reason common to all the Japan branches: all aeronautical projects were suspended(both military and civilian). They resumed in 1958 with the T-1 trainer which isn't suitable for the game.

 

 



J311yfish #23 Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:27 PM

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Some notes about the Ki-43's maneuverability from Fire in the Sky:

 

American ace Perry Dahl (flying P-38) :

"There were four of us one day that caught one little lone Oscar, and that was the lightest, most maneuverable fighter they made -- it only had two .30-caliber guns on it -- but we made passes on that Oscar for over forty minutes.  I came home with a hole in my prop -- we never touched him.  It was just remarkable.  This guy was so sharp.  When you'd line up and start to fire he could turn into you, he could dance on the rudders, and just turn around and fly back almost underneath itself.  And all four of us just gave up and flew back home."

 

Robert DeHaven (flying either P-40 or P-38):

"You'd be luck to get one Immelmann out of a Tony [Ki-61] starting from an initial flight altitude, whereas an Oscar [Ki-43], it really could do a double, and I saw it happen too many times.  I'm not too sure that a Zero, unless he had proper conditions set up, maximum throttle, and all-out level flight, could do it.  But I saw an Oscar do several double Immelmanns, even topped off by a hammerhead stall.  That's pretty fancy to watch.  It was an enormously maneuverable airplane.  The Oscar was designed to be an army fighter for the Manchurian and Chinese theaters.  It had great maneuverability but with its armament of two machine guns, it wasn't too far from the Sopwith Camel era in some ways."

 

Sammy Pierce (flying P-40):

"The Oscar [Ki-43] was probably the slowest Japanese fighter in the theater and had very light armament, but it was a performing fool.  An experienced pilot in an Oscar was not that much of a threat to an experienced P-40 pilot, because of the Oscar's lack of guns and the P-40's ability to take it, but he could send you home talking to yourself."

 


 

Posted 22 March 2014 - 02:44 PM

 I have updated the tree to resolve the muddy heavy fighter / ground attack situation.  

 

The Ki-45, Ki-96, Ki-102, Ki-108 lineage is good for these reasons:

-- design lineage by Takeo Doi

-- armament configurations allow user to equip for either heavy fighter / ground attack roles

-- the lineage ties more naturally to Ki-93 via the big guns (57mm and 75mm).

-- because it is essentially the same aircraft adapted several times over it could mean far less work/time for modelers

 

About the 75mm:

-- Ki-45 prototype was tried with 75mm (before Ki-109 and Ki-93) but was considered to be too heavy.  

-- Ki-109 was the next attempt to use the 75mm (durable but stripped-down Ki-67 twin-engine bomber airframe).

-- Ki-93 was the solution to the 75mm problem

 

So, there is evidence to support including the 75mm at tiers lower than Ki-93.  That would enable players to choose a "ground attack" configuration at the expense of speed and maneuverability.  If the 75mm is too powerful for those lower tiers then there is still enough flexibility in their armaments to allow for either role.

 

Following the big guns:

 57mm Ho-401:

 Ki-102b -- 580 km/h @ 6000m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-112-II or [Ha-33] 62 1500hp  

 Ki-93-Ia -- 624 km/h @ 8300m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-214 2400hp -- prototype complete April 1945

 

75mm Type 88:

 Ki-45 KAI -- 520 km/h @ 3500m approx -- 2x Nakajima Ha-25 1050hp -- Aug-Dec 1941 prototype; deemed too heavy

 Ki-49 -- bomber tried a 75mm variant but has been omitted because it has a crew of 8 and many gun positions (against precedent).

 Ki-109 -- 550 km/h @ 6090m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-104 1900hp -- proposed sometime after Nov 1943; prototype complete by Aug 1944

 Ki-93-Ib -- 624 km/h @ 8300m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-214 2400hp -- prototype complete but not yet tested by war end

 

Combined, by speed:

 Ki-45 KAI -- 75mm -- 520 km/h @ 3500m approx -- 2x Nakajima Ha-25 1050hp

 Ki-109 -- 75mm -- 550 km/h @ 6090m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-104 1900hp

 Ki-102b -- 57mm -- 580 km/h @ 6000m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-112-II or [Ha-33] 62 1500hp  

 Ki-93-Ia -- 57mm -- 624 km/h @ 8300m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-214 2400hp

 Ki-93-Ib -- 75mm -- 624 km/h @ 8300m -- 2x Mitsubishi Ha-214 2400hp

 

Disregard

 

Ki-61 data being modified here due to lack of space elsewhere:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Ki-43 other sources

 


Edited by J311yfish, 21 June 2015 - 12:17 AM.

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Commander_Rasseru #24 Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:13 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 26 February 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Updated the original post to account for engine developments.  The benefits of this approach are:

  • enforces chronological development
  • establishes a relationship between the heavy fighters and their neighboring lines
  • conducive to experience-based gameplay (rewards playing multiple lines)

 

I have accounted for engines in great detail.  I have not yet looked closely at armaments across all tiers in this scheme, but that is coming soon.


Could the Army fighters lead to the Japanese F-86 Sabre for tier 10?


Edited by Commander_Rasseru, 26 February 2014 - 10:14 PM.


Demon93IT #25 Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:50 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 26 February 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Updated the original post to account for engine developments.  The benefits of this approach are:

  • enforces chronological development
  • establishes a relationship between the heavy fighters and their neighboring lines
  • conducive to experience-based gameplay (rewards playing multiple lines)

 

I have accounted for engines in great detail.  I have not yet looked closely at armaments across all tiers in this scheme, but that is coming soon.


Well there are some problems. I'll divide them in the branches so it's easier.

Navy:

1)The Shiden Kai(N1K2) is missing

2)The J2M Raiden(with its variants) is missing

 

Dive bombers:

The problem here is the armament, pretty poor up until the B7A which at least has cannons instead of LMGs. Moreover there's a huge lack of high tier material since not a single jet was developed as a GAA(the Kikka had the ability to carry bombs as the 262 but its main role was intercepting, same goes for the Ki-201)

 

Heavy fighters:

1)The J1N is inferior in maximum speed to the Ki-102 and its foward firing armament is inferior to the Ki-102.

2)The S1A is more or less as fast as the Ki-102 and the armament is similar(2x20 mm plus 2x30 mm the S1A, 2x20 mm plus either 1x57 mm or 1x37 mm)

3)The Ki-93 is slow for a tier VIII heavy fighter. Its maximum speed was estimated to be 624 km/h, the usual tier VIII light fighter goes at 750+ km/h. It would not perform at the tier you set

4)The Kikka had a maximum speed of 695 km/h(without the upgraded engines). The tier IX counterparts in stock configuration go at 880 km/h(Gloster P.228) and 920 km/h(HG II). The sheer difference in speed is huge. Moreover it should be placed were the 262 is, since it got derived from it.

5)The Ki-201 is slow for tier X(only 820 km/h), even the J7W3 goes faster. For this reason it should be placed at least a tier lower.

 

Army:

1)The Ki-44 would be too strong for tier V. It had a nice speed(above 600 km/h), nice maneuverability and a nice armament(the Ki-44 III, the latest variant, had 4x20 mm or 2x20 mm plus 2x37 mm)

2)The KI-84 has the same problem of the Ki-44

3)Instead of using the KI-116 which never flew there could be the Ki-87 which actually flew and was tested prior to the nukes.

4)The KI-98 was designed as GAA, why is it in the Army fighter branch rather than in the GAA one?

5)Both the KI-61 and the Ki-100 were operational fighters. Moreover Kawasaki, as i showed in my first reply, has enough plane to at least attempt a branch of their own.

 

I guess that's it for now

 

View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 26 February 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:


Could the Army fighters lead to the Japanese F-86 Sabre for tier 10?


Personally i would prefer not to have a copy of the current F-86 at tier X but nothing stopped WG from duplicating stuff in WoT so it's likely.

 



J311yfish #26 Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:46 AM

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I appreciate your thorough reply.  I have made a new map that I think addresses each of your points.  If you think it can be refined further then I would be glad to do it.  

 

I intend to look closely at armaments next (tomorrow), and confirm speeds at each tier.  Beyond that I hope to include sub-trees (airframe/engine/armament), reference pictures for skins, etc.

 

 

 

 


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Wolcott #27 Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:07 AM

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Thanks for adding the Gekko. Best if you rename it the Nakajima J1N1 as the prototype was the only variant to have forward guns. Wouldn't want players to think you're suggesting the night fighter version with oblique guns.

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Charles1948 #28 Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:18 AM

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The Japanese Torpedo Bombers could be and were used as level bombers. There IS a sniper mode for bomb dropping. I had several Uncles who fought  against  the Japanese during WWII. All of them mention the plane coming  in very low bombing and strafing  both ships and land targets just as their American counterparts the TBD, TBFs and TBMs (F and M started out as the same plane but improvements were different for each) The same goes for the Army Light Attack Bombers Ann, Sonia and Mary even the Babs was used as a ground attack plane



Demon93IT #29 Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:43 AM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 27 February 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

I appreciate your thorough reply.  I have made a new map that I think addresses each of your points.  If you think it can be refined further then I would be glad to do it.  

 

I intend to look closely at armaments next (tomorrow), and confirm speeds at each tier.  Beyond that I hope to include sub-trees (airframe/engine/armament), reference pictures for skins, etc.

 

 

 

 


You're welcome, glad to be helpful. Up until tier VIII i could help without any problem, from then on it becomes difficult since i don't know if Japan developed other jet fighters or not.

 

View PostCharles1948, on 27 February 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

The Japanese Torpedo Bombers could be and were used as level bombers. There IS a sniper mode for bomb dropping. I had several Uncles who fought  against  the Japanese during WWII. All of them mention the plane coming  in very low bombing and strafing  both ships and land targets just as their American counterparts the TBD, TBFs and TBMs (F and M started out as the same plane but improvements were different for each) The same goes for the Army Light Attack Bombers Ann, Sonia and Mary even the Babs was used as a ground attack plane


There's a problem: ingame there aren't any level bombers. As the other branch, mainly composed by dive bomber, is concerned we have to wait for the Junker branch and see how WG handles them. In some extent they are similar since they had to perform the same role. It would help also for the US branch which has yet again a similar problem.

 

As the TBF and TBM is concerned as far as i know the only difference is that the TBF is built by Grumman and the TBM by General Motors. Maybe they had differences but i'm not aware of them


Edited by Demon93IT, 27 February 2014 - 09:44 AM.


Commander_Rasseru #30 Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

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The tree looks odd without the Bombers/Attack craft without their own branch now.

As for Level Bomber, Attack and Dive Bomber..... Should it all be group as one? Because there no way to get 10 tiers for each. Plus all there goal is to bomb ground targets. If we do get more than 10 planes? Why not split and merge the tree in some places. That been done a lot in WOT.

Edited by Commander_Rasseru, 27 February 2014 - 05:25 PM.


Demon93IT #31 Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 27 February 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

The tree looks odd without the Bombers/Attack craft without their own branch now.

As for Level Bomber, Attack and Dive Bomber..... Should it all be group as one? Because there no way to get 10 tiers for each. Plus all there goal is to bomb ground targets. If we do get more than 10 planes? Why not split and merge the tree in some places. That been done a lot in WOT.


Well it's the most complicated branch to make since there isn't anything like it ingame.



J311yfish #32 Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:31 PM

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Updated to show speeds/armaments at all tiers.  There appears to be a weakness in the armaments of the Tier VIII prototypes, more research is needed to know what might have been planned.  I don't want to speculate.

 

View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 27 February 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

The tree looks odd without the Bombers/Attack craft without their own branch now.

 

I am thankful for your input.  I hope to see dive bombers make it into the game eventually too, but I do not want to derail potential expansion of the Japanese Tech Tree by proposing aircraft that are outside the current style of the game.  I am trying to proceed in a cautious manner in order to make the path clear for developers (and anyone else interested).  This means relying heavily on precedent.  I will post the Dive Bomber track separately so as not to appear too radical, and that way it is at least on the table.


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lostwingman #33 Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:51 PM

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It's not really accurate to say that the Kitsuka was derived from the Me 262, influenced and emboldened by its success sure but not so much derived. It would be like saying "the Panther was derived from the T-34". There was indeed an attempt to bring documentation, blue prints, and functional Junkers Jumo 004 and BMW 003 turbojets to Japan by submarine. The submarine however was taken out shortly after it left Singapore. Luckily a Technical Commander who left ahead of the submarine from Singapore made it back to Japan, however all he had was a single copy of a cross section of the BMW 300A. It should be noted that the Japanese had had their own indigenous jet development programs (albeit with low priority) so working from that document they found it was very similar to the Ne 12 turbojet the Japanese were developing, the biggest difference being a different compressor which would be adopted as superior to their current compressor designs.

 

Of note as well is that there were several variants for several missions, for example it started off as a shimpu craft but was later adapted for both fast ground attack and interceptor roles.

This is what I have for specifications for the end of 1944 when they changed the role away from shimpu:

Spoiler

 

Interesting note about the Kitsuka, the simple frame design meant it took about half as much man-hours to build as an A6M. You'll find in general that Japanese designers were far more sane in their approaches than German designs, who for example, designed tanks(Panther) that took more man-hours to produce than a B-25.

 

Anyway when the Ne 20 turbojet finally began to come about the specification for the Kitsuka were revised again.

Spoiler

 

Here's a note about the design of the first completed Kitsuka. On angle of sweepback, keep in mind the sweepback on the Me 262 is there for center of gravity issues.

 

Spoiler

 

Wow, this is way longer than I wanted. Anyway for our more practical purposes it should also be remembered that the Kitsuka weighed ~6,500lbs fully loaded and the Me 262 A-1a weighed ~14,270lbs fully loaded. Also the Interceptor version which would use either the Ne 130 or Ne 330

was expected to get 713km/h on the Ne 130. Comparing the Ne 130 and Ne 330, the numbers I have are 1,984lbf for the Ne 130 (roughly equal to the Jumo 004 B-1) and Ne 330 at 2,866lbf. So really, if we bring the Ne 330 into the mix we could get a hefty speed bump to a Kitsuka interceptor if we really wanted to.

 

 

 


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Demon93IT #34 Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:38 PM

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View Postlostwingman, on 27 February 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

It's not really accurate to say that the Kitsuka was derived from the Me 262, influenced and emboldened by its success sure but not so much derived. It would be like saying "the Panther was derived from the T-34". There was indeed an attempt to bring documentation, blue prints, and functional Junkers Jumo 004 and BMW 003 turbojets to Japan by submarine. The submarine however was taken out shortly after it left Singapore. Luckily a Technical Commander who left ahead of the submarine from Singapore made it back to Japan, however all he had was a single copy of a cross section of the BMW 300A. It should be noted that the Japanese had had their own indigenous jet development programs (albeit with low priority) so working from that document they found it was very similar to the Ne 12 turbojet the Japanese were developing, the biggest difference being a different compressor which would be adopted as superior to their current compressor designs.

 

Of note as well is that there were several variants for several missions, for example it started off as a shimpu craft but was later adapted for both fast ground attack and interceptor roles.

This is what I have for specifications for the end of 1944 when they changed the role away from shimpu:

Spoiler

 

Interesting note about the Kitsuka, the simple frame design meant it took about half as much man-hours to build as an A6M. You'll find in general that Japanese designers were far more sane in their approaches than German designs, who for example, designed tanks(Panther) that took more man-hours to produce than a B-25.

 

Anyway when the Ne 20 turbojet finally began to come about the specification for the Kitsuka were revised again.

Spoiler

 

Here's a note about the design of the first completed Kitsuka. On angle of sweepback, keep in mind the sweepback on the Me 262 is there for center of gravity issues.

 

Spoiler

 

Wow, this is way longer than I wanted. Anyway for our more practical purposes it should also be remembered that the Kitsuka weighed ~6,500lbs fully loaded and the Me 262 A-1a weighed ~14,270lbs fully loaded. Also the Interceptor version which would use either the Ne 130 or Ne 330

was expected to get 713km/h on the Ne 130. Comparing the Ne 130 and Ne 330, the numbers I have are 1,984lbf for the Ne 130 (roughly equal to the Jumo 004 B-1) and Ne 330 at 2,866lbf. So really, if we bring the Ne 330 into the mix we could get a hefty speed bump to a Kitsuka interceptor if we really wanted to.

 

 

 


I know but without the blueprints the Japanese would not have done anything. Sure they adapted the project to their needs but without the blueprints carried by the Matsu(the video i linked says all the story regarding the plane) the Japanese would not have built the Kikka or the Ki-200(the Japanese version of the Me 163)



lostwingman #35 Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:09 PM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 27 February 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:


I know but without the blueprints the Japanese would not have done anything. Sure they adapted the project to their needs but without the blueprints carried by the Matsu(the video i linked says all the story regarding the plane) the Japanese would not have built the Kikka or the Ki-200(the Japanese version of the Me 163)


Did you miss what I said? They didn't get the blueprints, they got one cross sectional drawing of only the BMW engine because the transport was sunk on its way to Japan (as far as the Me 262 is concerned). The Japanese were working on jet engines throughout the war but put them on a low priority. I'll quote again:

Spoiler

 Matsumura being the cheif designer for Nakajima.

Again, this is like saying the Panther was based on the T-34. It was certainly influenced and took on certain iconic design features (single large sloped glacis), but it wasn't based on it.

 

As for the Ki-2000/J8M, it was sent to Japan from Germany with full documentation and examples (Japanese attaches also studied the German's manufacturing process) aboard three different subs in 1943. The first (RO-500) carried several Japanese officers and data of the Me 163B, it made it through to Japan fine. The Second (RO-501) had manufacturing data and blueprints for the Me 163B, this vessel was sunk by an escort off the Cape Verde Islands. The third (I-29, a name that should be familiar from my other post) that carried a HWK 509A rocket motor, fuselage of a Fieseler Fi 103, and a Jumo 004A turbojet. Also on board were detail planes for both the Me 163B and Me 262. This vessel was sunk in the Luzon Strait with the only thing getting out was whatever Technical Commander Eiichi Iwaya brought with him, which wasn't much. Although overall more information on the Me163 made it to Japan than on the Me 262.

 

Really, for example just compare the Me 262 and Kitsuka visually and closely and then the Me 163B to the J8M. Doing just that will highlight the difference in the amount of information brought over.


Edited by lostwingman, 27 February 2014 - 08:36 PM.

Ground Attack, the new Arty




Demon93IT #36 Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:55 PM

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View Postlostwingman, on 27 February 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:


Did you miss what I said? They didn't get the blueprints, they got one cross sectional drawing of only the BMW engine because the transport was sunk on its way to Japan (as far as the Me 262 is concerned). The Japanese were working on jet engines throughout the war but put them on a low priority. I'll quote again:

Spoiler

 Matsumura being the cheif designer for Nakajima.

Again, this is like saying the Panther was based on the T-34. It was certainly influenced and took on certain iconic design features (single large sloped glacis), but it wasn't based on it.

 

As for the Ki-2000/J8M, it was sent to Japan from Germany with full documentation and examples (Japanese attaches also studied the German's manufacturing process) aboard three different subs in 1943. The first (RO-500) carried several Japanese officers and data of the Me 163B, it made it through to Japan fine. The Second (RO-501) had manufacturing data and blueprints for the Me 163B, this vessel was sunk by an escort off the Cape Verde Islands. The third (I-29, a name that should be familiar from my other post) that carried a HWK 509A rocket motor, fuselage of a Fieseler Fi 103, and a Jumo 004A turbojet. Also on board were detail planes for both the Me 163B and Me 262. This vessel was sunk in the Luzon Strait with the only thing getting out was whatever Technical Commander Eiichi Iwaya brought with him, which wasn't much. Although overall more information on the Me163 made it to Japan than on the Me 262.

 

Really, for example just compare the Me 262 and Kitsuka visually and closely and then the Me 163B to the J8M. Doing just that will highlight the difference in the amount of information brought over.


As far i'm aware the Japanese got the sketches of the 262, maybe i was wrong. In any case i know that the Me 163 and the Ki-200 are more similar to each other than the 262 and the Kikka but then why the Ki-201 is so similar to the 262(at least exterior wise)? For this reason i thought the Japanese got at least sketches of the plane since it's more difficult to develop a plane from nothing and come up to the same conclusions in so little time.



lostwingman #37 Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:07 PM

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Yea I'm watching that video, it's got plenty wrong and I'm only 15 minutes in. Only 2 subs? What happened to I-29? The first two were both referred to as Satsuki (Satsuki 1 and Satsuki 2).

 

On the Ki-201, I'll have to look into it when I get this work I'm doing done but it was the Army design from Army requirements. The navy had its own requirements of the design which was originally a suicide (shimpu) craft, further design work on the Kitsuka came from there. Note the similarities of the Kitsuka fuselage to the Oka for example.

 

Also remember, the officer who brought the cross section of the BMW 003A was able to examine the Me 262.

 

Ehhh, screw work lol

Here's what I've got. The aircraft Nakajima proposed to the Army was to be as close to the Me 262 as possible as the design was already proven, it is also explicitly noted that the aircraft was to be designed as a fighter from the ground up and that the Japanese would have to make design compromises for Japanese manufacturing capability.

Block Quote

Shibuya had the same access to the Me 262 information as the IJN. It consisted of sketches and drawings of the Me 262A-1 and little else.

Dyer, Edwin  M (2009-11-05). Japanese Secret Projects: Experimental Aircraft of the IJA and IJN 1939-1945 (Kindle Location 1231). Midland Pub Ltd. Kindle Edition.

 So pretty much it seems whatever Iwaya had of personal notes on the Me 262 if I had to guess.

 

 

-----Oh dear god, they act like the Japanese had no Jet engine designs before 1944. Why history channel whhhyyyyy???????


Edited by lostwingman, 27 February 2014 - 09:28 PM.

Ground Attack, the new Arty




Demon93IT #38 Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:48 PM

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View Postlostwingman, on 27 February 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

Yea I'm watching that video, it's got plenty wrong and I'm only 15 minutes in. Only 2 subs? What happened to I-29? The first two were both referred to as Satsuki (Satsuki 1 and Satsuki 2).

 

On the Ki-201, I'll have to look into it when I get this work I'm doing done but it was the Army design from Army requirements. The navy had its own requirements of the design which was originally a suicide (shimpu) craft, further design work on the Kitsuka came from there. Note the similarities of the Kitsuka fuselage to the Oka for example.

 

Also remember, the officer who brought the cross section of the BMW 003A was able to examine the Me 262.

 

Ehhh, screw work lol

Here's what I've got. The aircraft Nakajima proposed to the Army was to be as close to the Me 262 as possible as the design was already proven, it is also explicitly noted that the aircraft was to be designed as a fighter from the ground up and that the Japanese would have to make design compromises for Japanese manufacturing capability.

 So pretty much it seems whatever Iwaya had of personal notes on the Me 262 if I had to guess.

 

 

-----Oh dear god, they act like the Japanese had no Jet engine designs before 1944. Why history channel whhhyyyyy???????


Well my assumption was based on the information i got from there.

 

In any case as their place ingame is concerned i think they would be two heavy fighters. The problem is that the Kikka isn't so fast but i suppose that the Japanese were working on changing the engines with more powerful ones. For the Ki-201 my knowledge is pretty so i can't say much about it. I would love to know more about these planes but finding information regarding them(or any other Japanese plane) is rather difficult



lostwingman #39 Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:56 PM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 27 February 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:


Well my assumption was based on the information i got from there.

 

In any case as their place ingame is concerned i think they would be two heavy fighters. The problem is that the Kikka isn't so fast but i suppose that the Japanese were working on changing the engines with more powerful ones. For the Ki-201 my knowledge is pretty so i can't say much about it. I would love to know more about these planes but finding information regarding them(or any other Japanese plane) is rather difficult


The Kitsuka we are usually talking about is the preliminary/early design with the Ne 20 engines, which is the one that actually flew. I might do a comparison between the Kitsuka with various armaments and engines against the various Me 262 variants (got a good book for that at home) so we can get a good comparative picture.

 

Yea, information on the Japanese in English is super scarce. As someone who spoke often with the people doing research for WG in WoT (one guy was in Japan, the other has a lot of connections to the military) and tried to find what was available in English, there is really still a lot that is either only in Japanese or still holed away in private archives (or lost/destroyed). There is a new version of the book I am citing out of with a bunch more research in it coming out later this year that I have on pre-order. We'll see how that goes.


Ground Attack, the new Arty




Demon93IT #40 Posted 27 February 2014 - 10:14 PM

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View Postlostwingman, on 27 February 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:


The Kitsuka we are usually talking about is the preliminary/early design with the Ne 20 engines, which is the one that actually flew. I might do a comparison between the Kitsuka with various armaments and engines against the various Me 262 variants (got a good book for that at home) so we can get a good comparative picture.

 

Yea, information on the Japanese in English is super scarce. As someone who spoke often with the people doing research for WG in WoT (one guy was in Japan, the other has a lot of connections to the military) and tried to find what was available in English, there is really still a lot that is either only in Japanese or still holed away in private archives (or lost/destroyed). There is a new version of the book I am citing out of with a bunch more research in it coming out later this year that I have on pre-order. We'll see how that goes.


Well i know that they thought about mounting other engines, i don't know much else.

 

As information is concerned i hope that WG has someone able to understand the technical terms in Japanese since i think they are the only reliable source of information existent. Hopefully there will be something about them, they deserve to have a better than tree than what they have now.







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