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[spoiler] what the Japanese tech tree could look like

Japan Mitsubishi Aichi Kawanishi Kyushu Kawasaki Nakajima Tachikawa Mansyu Rikugun

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J311yfish #161 Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:38 PM

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Kawasaki Ki-78 and Kogiken Series

-- Kawasaki Ki-78 introduced radical concepts (05/1941); Kogiken Series immediately after may have helped to disperse them (summer 1941)

-- The goal is to track technological advancement with precision to see how that might be reflected in the tech tree beyond simple placement at each tier.

-- These details are not revealed through specifications but rather through close reading and cross-referencing of development narratives.

 

Summary:

 

Proof 1:  Me-209 --> Ki-78 --> Ki-60/61 and J2M

 

Proof 2:  Ki-46 --> Ki-83  

 


Edited by J311yfish, 11 November 2014 - 04:34 PM.

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J311yfish #162 Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:39 PM

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Foreign Aircraft

-- evaluated by the IJA and IJN before and during the war

-- 1st goal is to understand how foreign concepts might have been adapted/integrated to meet Japan's needs

-- 2nd goal is to understand which concepts are unique to Japan

-- 3rd goal is to understand how all of this might be related to the roll-out of aircraft for other countries

-- (work in progress)

 


Edited by J311yfish, 09 November 2014 - 04:30 PM.

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J311yfish #163 Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:40 PM

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Captured Aircraft

-- examination of captured aircraft might help to establish a context for Japanese development decisions

-- (not much information here yet so it is really just for accountability)

-- see here for now: http://www.j-aircraft.com/captured/index.htm

 


Edited by J311yfish, 23 January 2016 - 06:14 AM.

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J311yfish #164 Posted 06 November 2014 - 02:50 PM

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Shared designs/concepts: 

-- The goal is to track technological advancement with precision to see how that might be reflected in the tech tree beyond simple placement at each tier.

-- These details are not revealed through specifications but rather through close reading and cross-referencing of development narratives.

 

Wings

 

Control surfaces

 

Fuselage

 

Engine and Propellers

 

Armament

 

Undercarriage

 

Electronics

 


Edited by J311yfish, 03 November 2015 - 07:10 AM.

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J311yfish #165 Posted 06 November 2014 - 02:52 PM

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Degrees of fiction:

If fiction is necessary in order to fill essential tiers for cohesive gameplay, then it might help to identify the challenges by degrees:


Edited by J311yfish, 08 November 2014 - 06:30 PM.

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J311yfish #166 Posted 06 November 2014 - 03:27 PM

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Development timelines

-- useful to confirm placements at each tier and rule out potential splits/parallels across multiple tiers (A6M, Ki-43, Ki-44)

-- useful to establish context for aircraft that otherwise do not have much information (Aichi S1A, Rikugun Ki-93, Tachikawa Ki-94-I, Tachikawa Ki-94-II, Mansyu Ki-98).

-- useful to explain production starts/stops in relationship to other aircraft

 

Summary

-- with A6M2 confirmed to be Tier V, and Ki-43-Ic confirmed to be Tier IV (China), the implications from the timelines below are that J2M and Ki-44 will also be Tier V.

-- there remains the possibility of splitting Ki-43 across Tier IV and V, but for the sake of simplicity I'm just going to leave it as is (several reasons).

 

 


 

 

Mitsubishi A6M -- establishes context by which to evaluate other aircraft

 

Mitsubishi J2M Raiden

 

Mitsubishi A7M Reppu

 

Nakajima Ki-43

 

Nakajima Ki-44

 

Kawasaki Ki-60, Ki-61Ki-64, Ki-100

 

 


 

 

Kawasaki timeline

 

Aichi S1A timeline

 

Rikugun Ki-93 timeline

 

Mitsubishi timeline -- Army collaboration

 

 


 

Kyushu J7W

 

Nakajima Kikka

 

Yokosuka R2Y2

 

"Tachikawa Ki-162"

 

Jet and rocket engines

 

Questions

 


Edited by J311yfish, 10 January 2015 - 04:33 PM.

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J311yfish #167 Posted 06 November 2014 - 03:37 PM

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Production locations

-- this post will instead focus on locations of manufacture (03/1942 production mapManchuria not accounted for)

-- the minor goal is to illuminate development relationships that are not otherwise indicated (via designers, specifications, timelines)

-- the ultimate goal is to derive a playable progression that resembles actual technological progression.

 

Aichi

 

Kawanishi

 

Yokosho / Kusho / Kugisho / Ichi-Gisho -- "Yokosuka"

 

Nakajima

 

Mitsubishi

 

Kawasaki

 

Tachikawa

 

 


 

 

Japanese jet developments by location 1945

 

Questions

 

Mansyu at Harbin, Manchuria -- to resolve Mansyu Ki-98

 

Tachikawa Dai-Ichi Rikugun Kokusho at Tachikawa (25 miles from Tokyo center) -- to resolve Rikugun Ki-93

 

 


 

Roles -- just another angle

 


Edited by J311yfish, 21 June 2015 - 12:14 AM.

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J311yfish #168 Posted 08 November 2014 - 08:57 PM

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Big update

 

Mitsubishi J2M and Nakajima Ki-44 placement at Tier V confirmed:

-- development timeline relative to A6M2, Ki-43, Ki-61

-- technological relationship to Kawasaki Ki-78 which also influenced Ki-60 and Ki-61

 

Tachikawa Ki-94-II appears to be the best continuation of concepts employed by Kawasaki

-- shared designs and concepts for all aircraft

 

Miscellaneous aircraft

-- some miscellaneous aircraft shown in yellow so that their relationship might be understood.

  • Ki-38 -- twin-engine heavy-fighter mockup; redesigned and redesignated Ki-45.
  • Ki-66 -- twin-engine heavy-fighter / dive-bomber resembling Ki-45; concepts ultimately inherited by Ki-48-II Light Bomber.  Explains development lag.
  • Ki-46-III KAI -- high-altitude fighter adaptation of reconnaissance aircraft.  Explains a stopgap solution.
  • Ki-100 -- radial adaptation of Ki-61.  Explains production challenges.
  • Ki-116 -- radial adaptation for Ki-84.  Explains production challenges.
  • A7M3-J -- very little information, essentially A7M3 with 4x30mm and 2x30mm oblique.  Explains in part the challenge of the B-29 threat.

 

Heavy fighters

-- Work remains to be done here because development is obscured by:

  • prototypes (Ki-66, Ki-108)
  • stop-gap adaptations (Ki-46-III KAI)
  • failed concepts (Ki-109)
  • untested aircraft (Aichi S1A, Ki-93).
  • unrealized aircraft (Kikka, Ki-201, R2Y2)
  • poor development narratives beginning 1944

All of the relationships above make sense based on engine progression but there may be a better way that clarifies roles (such as single seat vs. two-seat, division of roles) though much depends on how the Kikka, Ki-201, and R2Y2 are implemented.  It is necessary to understand what is going on in Manchuria (to resolve Ki-98) as well as to understand what is going on with bomber design/production so that their adaptation might be placed in proper context.

-- work in progress here.

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 17 November 2014 - 02:39 PM.

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SoukouDragon #169 Posted 09 November 2014 - 09:00 AM

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The large amount of work here is appreciated. Well done so far.

 

So my first question/comment here is the Shuisui (and Komet for that matter). Would like to see them but not sure how they can fit in. 

 

The tier 8 J8M1 seems workable. Very high speed and good maneuverability. With just two 30 cannons, it's firepower would be lower, serving as compensation for the great speed and maneuverability.

 

The tier 9 J8M2 actually looks weaker for the game by only having 1 30mm cannon in exchange for more fuel. At tier 9, only one cannon might be too weak overall. And the majority of tier 9 plans are also fast so even with an upgraded rocket engine, it's relative speed advantage won't be as good as it is in tier 8.

 

Tier 10 Ki-202 gets a better rocket engine but speed hasn't really improved for what it seems to be due to a bigger body. Bigger body for more fuel or greater durability? And just two 30mm cannons. Maybe this one will need some fictional additions like a non existing new rocket engine which gives it a big speed advantage over even regular tier X fighters.


Edited by SoukouDragon, 09 November 2014 - 09:04 AM.


J311yfish #170 Posted 09 November 2014 - 03:38 PM

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I honestly don't know how they might intend to implement, except to say that the speeds given by Dyer are estimates, and that the armament may be malleable.  If J7W is a reliable indicator then it may be that specs and modules are exaggerated in the same way for balance.

 

What is known so far, in order:

 

^ It might seem unnecessarily complicated to list what is known that way but it makes it easier to identify (and challenge) erroneous assumptions.

 

There is an archived post here related to the Komet and J8M which evaluates rocket-powered aircraft point-by-point.  Another here (EU forum) that approaches from a different angle.


Edited by J311yfish, 09 November 2014 - 03:51 PM.

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SoukouDragon #171 Posted 09 November 2014 - 05:09 PM

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Ok thanks for the very informative reply. I have looked into some general Japanese sources such as Japanese Wikipedia and a couple of things I have and haven't seen anything additive to what is here so far. I like the idea of going into more detailed materials but that may take some time. 

J311yfish #172 Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:16 PM

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Following your line of inquiry, I have looked again at Kayaba Katsuodori.  I had ruled it out very early in this project, before rockets were even announced as eminent, because it relies on a ramjet for propulsion which is so far unprecedented in game; but looking closer, it really is a compelling transition.  

 

Quick facts

-- development 1937-1944; prototype expected 1944 would put it at or around the same time as A7M's first flight.

-- development as a point interceptor with landing skid, jettisoned landing gear, etc. are all in league with J8MKi-202

-- funded by Rikugun (Army Air Technical Institute); discontinued with (eclipsed by) the arrival of German rocket technology.

-- ramjet's variable thrust is weaker than rocket engine even under the best conditions (ramjet 300-750kg vs. KR10 rocket 1500kg thrust).

-- designer proposed to adapt it for the Ne-20 jet engine (used by Kikka; 490kg; expected Tier VIII) or the KR10 rocket engine (used by J8M) but Army declined.

-- experimental 2x30mm with caseless ammo's lower velocity would make it weaker than J8M's 2x30mm.

 

Anyway, all of this to say that there is a chronological, technological, and progressive engine and armament relationship, if Kayaba Katsuodori were to be included as a transition to Mitsubishi J8M.  Details added at Tier VIII, will pursue further.

 

Thank you for asking the tough questions!


Edited by J311yfish, 15 November 2014 - 12:40 AM.

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SoukouDragon #173 Posted 10 November 2014 - 07:04 PM

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I'm loaded with scrutiny potential. Only wish I had more time.:teethhappy:

J311yfish #174 Posted 11 November 2014 - 12:28 AM

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View PostSoukouDragon, on 10 November 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

I'm loaded with scrutiny potential. Only wish I had more time.:teethhappy:

 

If you can rip it to shreds, I hope that you will -- that's the only way it will get better.

 


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J311yfish #175 Posted 20 November 2014 - 05:12 AM

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Dimensions -- Heavy Fighters vs. Twin-Engine Bombers

 


Edited by J311yfish, 28 November 2014 - 10:29 PM.

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J311yfish #176 Posted 20 November 2014 - 05:18 AM

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Twin-engine bomber progression

-- this is necessary in order to identify those that might have been adapted to a heavy fighter role.

-- rather than try to account for the many unusual adaptations in detail, the goal here is to identify progression and all all engines used, so that if an essential tier must be filled it will be easy to know where to look (engine tier).

 

 

Army Summary:

  Mitsubishi Ki-30 ---> Mitsubishi Ki-51 ---------------------------------> Mitsubishi Ki-67       (designer progression)

  Mitsubishi Ki-21 ---> Mitsubishi Ki-21-II and Nakajima Ki-49 -----> Mitsubishi Ki-67       (designer and operational progression)

 

Navy Summary:

  Hiro G2H ----------> Mitsubishi G3M ------> Mitsubishi G4M ------> Yokosuka P1Y

 

 

Fast Facts:

-- Mitsubishi G4M represents approximately 25% of all twin-engine bombers produced.

 

 


 

Army twin-engine bombers

 

Mitsubishi Ki-21

 

Kawasaki Ki-48

 

Nakajima Ki-49

 

Mitsubishi Ki-67

 


 

Navy twin-engine bombers

 

Hiro G2H

 

Mitsubishi G3M

 

Mitsubishi G4M

 

Yokosuka P1Y Ginga

 

 


 

other stuff

 

4- and 6-engine bombers

 

2- and 4-engine flying boats

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 15 December 2014 - 06:56 PM.

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J311yfish #177 Posted 10 January 2015 - 02:44 PM

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Over the next few weeks this thread will be updated with details gleaned from Dyer's 2nd book, with emphasis on these aircraft in particular:

 

[X]  Mitsubishi A7M Reppu

[X]  Mitsubishi Ki-83

[X]  Aichi B8A Mokusei

[X]  Aichi S1A Denko

[X]  Kawasaki Ki-119

[X]  Nakajima Ki-84 variants (Ki-106, Ki-113, Ki-116, Ki-117)

 

After that there are many other projects/prototypes that might help to explain development (such as heavy fighter escort conversions from twin-engine bomber airframes), but I don't have a timeframe on that yet.


Edited by J311yfish, 11 January 2015 - 10:10 PM.

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J311yfish #178 Posted 08 February 2015 - 02:40 AM

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Project on hold until Japanese Army materializes.  Below is the latest work in progress, very rough, but reliable as an overview for someone that doesn't know where to begin.

 

 

The goal was to account for (and prove) all relationships (designer, role, concepts, etc.), and to identify weaknesses that might then drive further research.

 


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Carl_the_Cuttlefish #179 Posted 09 February 2015 - 03:56 PM

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J3llyfish, I was looking at the Aichi divebombers, and according to Wikipedia, they were very manuverable, more so even than the Zero's. Do you think the maneuverability and the speed of these planes would warrent bumping them up a tier higher, especially the D4Y and up? The B7A was more maneuverable than a A6M5, had the same weapons, and would likely have more HPs plus having bombs, so I think that could maybe qualify as tier VII. What do you think? The only problem is theres a hole at tier IV, maybe the D3A with the bigger engine they used as a fighter later in the war?

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Notasinglebich #180 Posted 10 February 2015 - 12:48 AM

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