294 replies to this topic

[Demon93IT]

Commander_Rasseru, on 27 March 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

Could the Fuji T-1, F-86 Sabre, Lockheed F-104 Starfighter and Lockheed T-33A be added to the list for Premium or/and Omitted list? Or the could fit into a slot for Jet Aircraft that is needed and might need buff up to be equal match to other nations? During my research... I couldn't find any more military aircraft made after the war that match with the current game's time frame. 

The Fuji T-1 was very lightly armed, the F-104 it's way outside the limits set. As the T-33 is concerned i don't know, technically it could be added although it wasn't designed to fight

[Commander_Rasseru]

Demon93IT, on 27 March 2014 - 01:24 AM, said:

The Fuji T-1 was very lightly armed, the F-104 it's way outside the limits set. As the T-33 is concerned i don't know, technically it could be added although it wasn't designed to fight

The T-33 could be a P-80 Shooting Star, since they are variants.

[J311yfish]

Thank you for looking into post-WW2 jets.  I have put them into a timeline to show their relationship to the current tier X's:

 

Timeline precedent established by game:

08 Aug 1947    North American F-86 prototype complete (XF-86)
01 Oct 1947    North American F-86 prototype first flight (F-86A in game)
08 Jan 1948    Lavochkin La-15 first flight
04 Sep 1948    Yakovlev Yak-30 prototype first flight; project canceled as Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 production was underway (first flight 30 Dec 1947)
29 Sep 1948    Vought F7U Cutlass first flight
28 Dec 1948    Supermarine Swift first flight
19 Mar 1949    Lavochkin La-15 operational tests
26 Nov 1951    Gloster Javelin prototype first flight
20 Dec 1951    Vought X-F7U-3 prototype first flight; (this is the F7U-3 in game)
25 Aug 1952    Supermarine Swift first flight
07 Mar 1953    IL-40 prototype first flight
__ ___ 1953    Lavochkin La-15's dismantled and production terminated; preference given to MiG-15
__ Jan 1954    IL-40 flight trials concluded
15 Jan 1954    IL-40 state acceptance trials begin
15 Mar 1954    IL-40 state acceptance trials conclude
22 Jul 1954    Gloster Javelin first production flight
16 Oct 1954    IL-40P construction began
14 Feb 1955    IL-40P prototype first flight
12 Oct 1955    IL-40P state acceptance trials begin
spring 1956    IL-40P five produced by this time
13 Apr 1956    IL-40P program canceled
__ ___ 1956    Gloster Javelin up to FAW 7 variant (this is the FAW 7s in game)
__ ___ 1960's    IL-42 revival of the IL-40 concept; beaten by Su-25
22 Feb 1975    Su-25 first flight

 

Timeline for post-WW2 Japanese jets and related developments:

20 Aug 1945    U.S. and Japan armistice
02 Sep 1945    U.S. and Japan armistice signed onboard U.S.S. Missouri
18 Sep 1947    U.S. Air Force established as separate service (National Security Act of 1947)
08 Aug 1947    North American XF-86 (XP-86) prototype completed; "first American aircraft to take advantage of flight research data seized from the German aerodynamicists at the end of the war"
01 Oct 1947    North American F-86 Sabre first flight (YF-86D; also known as YF-95A)
22 Mar 1948    Lockheed T-33 first flight; manufactured in Japan by Kawasaki in 1956+
__ Sep 1948    North American F-86A set its first official world speed record of 670 miles per hour (1,080 km/h); still 51 km/h short of Me163B tested by Germans in 1944
22 Dec 1949    North American F-86D prototype first flight
25 Jun 1950    Korean War start

08 Sep 1951    Mutual Security Treaty signed to station U.S. troops on Japan soil
27 Jul 1953     Korean War end
__ Sep 1953    XAAM-N-7 (later AIM-9A) successful test in U.S.
__ ___ 1953    North American F-86D production ended

__ ___ 1953*   Allied countries (except USSR) allow Japan to re-equip military forces
04 Mar 1954    Lockheed F-104 Starfighter first flight

08 Mar 1954    Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement signed; to go active 01 May 1954; provision for U.S. troops in Japan while Japan focuses on rebuilding military for defensive purposes.

01 May 1954    Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement active
01 Jul 1954*   Japan Air Self-Defense Force founded

13 Jul 1954    Mitsubishi agreement with North American Aviation for F-86F-40-NA to be built under license

__ ___ 1955    Ishikawajima-Harima J3 turbojet development begins by the Nippon Jet-Engine Company; used in T-1B (~1958) and tested in Curtiss C-46 (Feb 1960)
__ Dec 1955    Japan Air Self-Defense Force acquires 180 U.S. F-86F's
__ ___ 1956** Mitsubishi builds 300 F-86F's under license; called Kyokuko (Sunbeam)

09 Aug 1956   first flight of an F-86F assembled in Japan

__ ___ 1956    Kawasaki manufactures 210 Lockheed T-33's in Japan 1956+

__ Jan 1958    Fuji T-1 first flight; T1A powered by British-designed Bristol Siddeley Orpheus; T-1B used the Ishikawajima-Harima J3 turbojet

24 Sep 1958    AIM-9's first used in combat by U.S.

__ ___ 1958    Japan Air Self-Defense Force acquires 180 U.S. F-86D's; F-86D variant named Gekko (Moonlight)

__ Nov 1959    AIM-9 arrives in Japan
__ ___ 1959    Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) designated prime contractor for J3 engine
__ ___ 1960    Ishikawajima-Harima J3 tested in Curtiss C-46 transport aircraft

__ Nov 1960    Japan plans for Lockheed F-104J

25 Feb 1961   last F-86F assembled in Japan

__ ___ 1961    North American F-86D's phased out by USAF; other countries continued to use them

30 Jun 1961    Lockheed-built F-104J makes first flight in Japan (first three built by Lockheed); specialized interceptor version named Eiko (Glory); armed with cannon and four Sidewinders (AIM-9's)
__ Mar 1962    Mitsubishi begins production of F-104J's until March 1965; 

__ Apr 1962    Ishikawajima-Harima J3 production deliveries begin
02 Aug 1964    Gulf of Tonkin incident; escalation of war in Vietnam
__ ___ 1967    Japanese aviation firms Fuji, Kawasaki, and Mitsubishi, each submitted proposal for jet trainer
__ Sep 1967    Mitsubishi design selected; lead designer Dr. Kenji Ikeda
__ ___ 1968    Japan Air Self-Defense Force purchases a total of 140 F-4EJ Phantoms; Mitsubishi builds 138 under license
20 Jul 1971    Mitsubishi T-2 first flight
03 June 1975    Mitsubishi F-1 first flight

 

 

Given the IL-40P and Gloster Javelin programs active in 1956, it seems to me that the best case could be made for the F-86F built by Mitsubishi under license in 1956 after the Japan Air Self-Defense Force was formed.  

 

However, if this is done for Japan then a similar case could be made for Germany with the F-84F acquired in January 1956 after the Luftwaffe was reformed; yet Germany already has three WW2-era jet lines in game extending to Tier X, some of them from blueprints with zero production.  Why then should Japan not get a similar treatment, given there is no shortage of native developments?

 

---

 

North American F-86F  Kyokuko (Sunbeam)  「旭光」

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
28+180 *	F-86F-40	General Electric J47-GE-27	1118 km/h @ _____ ***	6x12.7mm Browning M3 **	2x454kg

* 28 built by North American; 180 assembled by Mitsubishi

** For reference, the Supermarine Swift in game has a max speed of 1127 km/h at best altitude and the F-86A in game has the same armament

 

Notes:

-- Used by 29 countries and United Nations

-- Also used for Japan's aerobatic team "Blue Impulse" (like USN Blue Angels, USAF Thunderbirds)

-- Some were given back to the U.S.

-- Pictures here and here.

-- Added to omitted list:

• Lockheed T-33A trainer (1956)
• Fuji T-1 trainer (1958)
• North American F-86D Sabre (1958)
• Lockheed F-104 Starfighter (1962)

 

Edited by J311yfish, 21 June 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[J311yfish]

I have been thinking about how to fill the lower tiers on the IJN side leading up to the N1K1-J and the J1N1.  These are the possibilities:

 

Option 0:   Nothing

-- leave it blank because the A6M is legendary and eclipses everything else in production

 

Option 1:  Dive Bombers

-- You would be giving up the firepower/speed/maneuverability of the A5M or A6M in order to have a tail-gunner, greater payload, and dive brakes.

-- Examples:  Aichi D1A, Aichi D3A, Yokosuka D4Y, Aichi B7A

-- barriers to implementation:  

• maps built with dive bombing in mind
• ability to bind 2 separate bomb release buttons

Notes:

-- Kotobuki and Hikari engines = correspond to Type 91, A4N, A5M engines (Tiers I-III)

-- Kinsei 43, 44, 54, and Atsuta 12, 32 would then correspond to Tiers IV-V (Zuisei and Sakae engines of A6M line)

-- Kinsei 62 engine = corresponds with A6M5 engine (Tier VI)

-- Nakajima D2N1 and D3N1 didn't make it into production because they couldn't outperform D1A / D3A

-- Yokosuka D3Y2-K / D5Y1 suicide left off the list

-- Aichi B7A Ryusei accounted for on the torpedo bomber list as it shares their designation

 

Option 2:  Torpedo Bombers

-- As with dive bombers above, you would be giving up the firepower/speed/maneuverability of the A5M or A6M in order to have a tail-gunner.

-- Examples:  Mitsubishi B5M, Nakajima B5N, Nakajima B6N, Aichi B7A

 

Option 3:  Floatplanes

-- As with dive bombers above, you would be giving up the speed/maneuverability of the A5M or A6M in order to have a tail-gunner (and/or heavier armament for the tier)

-- floatplane lineage could contribute directly to the development of the N1K1-J

-- Examples:  Nakajima E8N, Mitsubishi F1M, Nakajima A6M2-N, Kawanishi N1K1

-- barriers to implementation:

• hangar rendering (sitting on a trailer? or something else)

 

Notes:

Aichi E16A has good armament but made its first flight 3 weeks after N1K1

Mitsubishi F1M

 

Option 4:  Flying Boats

-- You would be giving up extreme speed/maneuverability in order to have a tail gunner or multiple gunners, and would be heavily armored, presumably to deliver a bomb payload in a manner similar to ground attack aircraft currently in game, taking the "sky whale" concept to a whole new level

-- Examples:  Yokosuka H5Y, Kawanishi H3K, Kawanishi H6K, Kawanishi H8K

 

Notes:

-- Aichi H9A engine = also used in A6M1 (Tier IV)

-- Kawanishi H8K engine = also used in Kawanishi N1K1, and a variation used in Mitsubishi J2M (Tier VII)

-- there are many early designs and prototypes accounted for in Robert Mikesh's book, Japanese Aircraft 1910-1941

 

Option 5:  Recon / Patrol / Observation aircraft

-- You would be giving up firepower and armor for speed.

-- recon aircraft could contribute directly to the development of the J1N1

-- Examples:  Mitsubishi C5M, Nakajima C6N, Kyushu Q1W

 

Option 6:  Other fighter prototypes/projects

-- parallel fighters developed as companies competed with each other (Ex. Ki-33)

-- canceled fighter projects

-- modified imports, etc.

 

Option 7:  Some combination of the above

-- such as the "night fighter" variations on any of the above

-- this could contribute directly to the development of the J1N1 dedicated night fighter.

 

 

I recognize that most of the aircraft here are going heavily against precedent.  My goal here is to get a good look at everything to see how it might fit in.  It is really just a sudoku exercise at this point, but there are still some reasonable (or obvious) conclusions to be derived.  For instance, a dedicated dive bomber or floatplane progression would probably not arrive before the IJA fighters because there are barriers to implementation.  Flying boats are comparable to low-altitude flying fortresses and probably wouldn't even be considered until then if ever.  Perhaps another avenue for implementing them would be through alternate battle modes that use AI, but I don't want to speculate about that.  Anyway, just to be thorough, here is an interpretation of dive bombers and floatplane progression based on information derived from Francillon and Mikesh.

 

 

Dive bombers and floatplanes included:

 

 

[Raindrops]

I believe that dive and torpedo bombers would be more than capable of performing a GA role, so long as they are balanced according to their speed and payload. The Japanese very much show the type's weakness in armament, but if they could perform  acceptably if they could fill the role of quick-strike aircraft, able to rush in and claim early superiority before enemy fighters can harass them.

Recon aircraft as well, due to the weak (if any) armament, would need to be balanced to have a speed/altitude advantage just to stay alive, much less be effective in a fight.

 

As for flying boats... No. They are very large, often with four engines, and (correct me if I'm wrong) don't have hard-mounted forward firepower. As such, they fit in with bombers such as the B-17 and JU-188.

 

I would agree that floatplanes are the most ideal, as they were often conversions of effective fighter aircraft and carried comparable armaments. I would place torpedo and dive bombers next, followed by the few viable recon planes. and leave the boats strait out.

[J311yfish]

Update:

-- Added some detailed notes about dive bombers and floatplanes above.

-- Japanese aircraft used by the Chinese after September 1945 (below).

 

• Nakajima Ki-43 Type 1 Hayabusa
• Kawasaki Ki-61 Type 3 Hien
• Nakajima Ki-44 Type 2 Shoki
• Nakajima Ki-84 type 4 Hayate
• Mitsubishi Ki-51 Type 99 ground-attack
• Kawasaki Ki-48 twin-engine light bomber

 

Source: Communist Chinese Air Power, by Richard M. Bueschel

 

 

A Chinese tech tree is being worked on over here.

 

 

[J311yfish]

This post is reserved for a detailed account of premium aircraft already in-game.

 

Tier II Premium

 

Kawasaki Ki-5 (02/1934) -- Experimental Fighter

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
4 prototypes (1934)	II  Ki-5	III Kawasaki Ha-9-I*  720-800hp (3- or 2-blade prop)	361 km/h	II  2x7.7mm

Data:  Mikesh     Specifications in-game    Climb 8:00 to 5000m; ceiling 9000m.  *German BMW IX engine manufactured by Kawasaki (Weiliczko, 8)

 

Notes:

-- As a replacement for the Kawasaki Army Type 92 Fighter, in June 1933 the Army instructed Kawasaki to begin work on a new fighter.  This was to be a radical change in design and was to be a fully cantilever low-wing monoplane which the Army designated Ki-5.  The design was initially supervised by Dr. Richard Vogt with chief designer Takeo Doi and the company completed the first prototype in [02/1934].  (In 1933, before the airplane was completed, Vogt returned to Germany as chief desinger, general manager, and part owner of the Hamburger Flugzeugbau.)" (Mikesh, 155)

-- "The Ki-5 had an inverted gull-wing to provide better downward visibility for the pilot and make possible a shorter undercarriage.  It was powered by an Ha-9 I water-cooled engine, a development of the Kawasaki-BMW IX, with a three-bladed metal propeller." (Mikesh, 155)

-- "In all, 4 prototypes were built, each having differences in center-section anhedral, outer wing dihedral, fuselage shape, undercarriage configuration, radiator, seat positioning and other refinements.  These failed to produce a good airplane with desired visibility for the pilot, or good stability at low speeds.  Progressive designs reduced and finally eliminated the inverted-gull wing concept." (Mikesh, 155)

-- "Efforts continued for more than half a year to improve the Ki-5's performance, but in [09/1934] the Army decided that the airplane showed little promise of achieving the desired maneuverability and cancelled the project.  In general, test results showed that it had poor lateral stability at low speed and suffered from engine vibration and engine cooling system problems.  By now, with the passing of much time, Kawasaki had an alternative, reverting to biplane layout, and the Army then turned its attention to developing this later airplane which became the Ki-10 fighter (Perry)." (Mikesh, 156)

-- for excellent narrative see Wieliczko's coverage of Ki-27 development (Wieliczko, 9).

 

 

Nakajima Ki-8 (03/1934-05/1935) --  -- Experimental Two-Seat Fighter

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
5 (03/1934-05/1935)	II  Ki-8 prototype	III  Nakajima Kotobuki 3  540-710hp	328 km/h	II  2x7.7mm front II  1x7.7mm rear

Data:  Mikesh   In-game specs

 

Notes:

-- "Chief designer assigned to the project was Shigejiro Ohwada, assisted by Toshio Matsuda.  Their design was an advanced low-wing cantilever monoplane with inverted-gull tapered wing.  This wing was a metal structure with metal skin on the forward half and fabric-covered rear portion.  The fuselage followed the now-established practice of being an all-metal monocoque structure.  The undercarriage was non-retractable but the wheels were enclosed by large spats.  The Kotobuki 3 engine was enclosed by a close-fitting ring cowling with blisters above the cylinder heads, a relatively new form that was later applied to the Nakajima AT transport.  The pilot's cockpit was semi-enclosed by a rearward sliding canopy, said to be the first of its type for a fighter." (Mikesh, 217-218)

-- "Five of these aircraft were built between March 1934 and May 1935 and an Army team led by Capt Yatsuo Yokoyama evaluated the airplanes.  During test flights, they were plagued with accidents, none serious, but bad enough to cause damage to the control surfaces which required constant changing.  This was mostly aileron damage caused by a wing dropping on landing due to early stalling and it seems that this problem was never completely overcome.  A large dorsal fin was added but what effect this had on correcting this control problem is not known." (Mikesh, 218)

-- "Although testing and evaluation continued for some time, the Army did not have a policy covering the use of two-seat fighters, and as a consequence the airplane was never accepted as standard equipment.  It was reported, however, that the general performance of the Ki-8 was almost equivalent to that of the light-weight single-seat Type 91 Fighter." (Mikesh, 218)

-- image

 

 

 

Tier III Premium

 

Mitsubishi Ki-18 (08/1935) -- Experimental Fighter

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
(08/1935)	III  Ki-18	II    Nakajima Kotobuki 5 600hp (2-blade prop) III  Nakajima Kotobuki 3	445 km/h @ 3050m	II  2x7.7mm

Specifications in-game

 

Notes:

-- Rumor

-- "In a new fighter competition organized by the Army in 1934, in which Mitsubishi was not initially involved, Nakajima submitted a low-wing monoplane with non-retractable undercarriage, which looked similar to the Boeing P-26, and it became the Ki-11.  Kawasaki's entry was a sesquiplane fighter, to be known as the Ki-10.  The Ki-11 was slightly superior to the Ki-10 in speed, yet the Ki-10 was more maneuverable.  The latter airplane, however, was accepted by the Army as the Type 95 Fighter, but without much enthusiasm." (Mikesh, 186-187)

-- "At this time Mitsubishi's Navy 9-Shi Fighter was showing outstanding performance and not only captured the respect of the Navy, but of the Army as well.  With the Navy's consent, the Army ordered an example of the 9-Shi Fighter (which developed into the A5M1, Allied code-name Claude) for evaluation.  It was to have Army equipment and systems to replace those of the Navy.  This became the Ki-18.  Changes from the Navy model were in the direction of the throttle movement (in the Army forward was idle) and substituting Army standard machine-guns.  The reverse movement of the throttle probably resulted from French influence." (Mikesh, 187)

-- "The new airplane was completed in August 1935 and evaluated until the following spring at the Air Technical Research Institute at Tachikawa and later at the Akeno Army Flying School.  In the early part of 1936 the Kotobuki 5 engine was changed to the Kotobuki 3 at the suggestion of Capt Oujiro Matsumura, an instructor at Akeno.  The direct-drive Kotobuki 3 seemed to be an Army preference.  During these tests, flown primarily by Capt Akita, a maximum speed of 240 kt [445 km/h] at 3050m was recorded, and the airplane was able to climb to 5000m in 6:26 -- an exceptional rate.  These remarkable tests continued until the Ki-18 was badly damaged in a landing accident." (Mikesh, 187)

-- "Opinions by those who flew the airplane were that stability and control could be improved but no changes were made.  However, while the Ki-18 was being evaluated at the Akeno Flying School, it gained excellent marks in every respect and it was requested that further models be produced.  These Akeno recommendations were countered by the Air Technical Research Institute expressing dissatisfaction with the engine which it termed unreliable.  Supporting this claim, the senior organization, Army Air Headquarters, concluded that the Ki-18 had insufficient performance for acceptance as an Army fighter.  Therefore, a new competition would be staged, inviting three aircraft companies to participate.  Thus, the Ki-18 ended with only the one aircraft, to the astonishment of Mitsubishi, because of the dissatisfaction expressed by the Air Headquarters, while this same airplane was considered a revolutionary fighter for the Japanese Navy.  One might speculate that the never-ending rivalry and jealousy between the Army and Navy had much to do with this decision." (Mikesh, 187)

 

Span  m	11 m
Length  m	7.655 m
Height  m	3.15 m
Wing area  m2	17.80
Empty weight  kg	1110
Loaded weight  kg	1422
Wing loading  kg/m2	79.9
Power loading  kg/hp	2.37
Climb rate	6:26 to 3050m

 

 

Mitsubishi Ki-33 (08/1936) -- Experimental Fighter

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
2 (08/1936)	II  Ki-33	II   Nakajima Ha-1 Ko  620-745hp (2-blade prop)	474 km/h @ 3000m	III  2x7.7mm

Specifications in-game

 

Notes:

-- "After the failure of the Ki-11 and the non-acceptance of the Ki-18, the Army informed three of the major aircraft manufacturers in [12/1935] that a competition would be held for a new fighter the following April.  This date was based upon the expected availability of the new Army Ha-1 Ko engine.  Features asked for in the competition closely followed those of the rejected Ki-18 (A5M1)." (Mikesh, 187)

-- "In response, Mitsubishi engineers felt that the company was too involved with the two 9-Shi aircraft, the A5M fighter and the G3M bomber, both of which had recently been accepted by the Navy.  There was no advantage in diluting manpower resources with separate projects for both the Army and the Navy.  In addition, the rejection by the Army of the Ki-18 in light of its outstanding capability was considered to be a second rejection on principles rather than quality." (Mikesh, 187-188)

-- "An internal debate between Mitsubishi's marketing division and its engineers brought about a compromise that the Army's purchase order would be honored provided it did not cause a noticeable drain upon engineering resources unless such design work was absolutely necessary." (Mikesh, 188)

-- "The new fighter was designated Ki-33.  Chief designer was Jiro Horikoshi, who had designed the 9-Shi Fighter.  By [08/1936], the first prototype was completed, far earlier than the other companies' prototypes.  This was understandable because Mitsubishi had current fighter designs and fabrication experience with existing models.  When the second prototype was completed, both aircraft were delivered to the Army after inter-company flight tests at Kagamigahara." (Mikesh, 188)

-- "In appearance, the Ki-33 closely resembled the Navy A5M1 Fighter, as did the Ki-18 which had been rejected.  What made this airplane significant, aside from the Ha-1 engine replacing the Kotobuki 5 engine, was the wash-out of the wing that Horikoshi introduced into the design of the second prototype which had a conventional wing.  This wash-out reduced wingtip stall at high angles of attack, which is so essential for improved maneuverability when dog-fighting." (Mikesh, 188)

-- "Mitsubishi's competitors were much later with their test aircraft.  By the time they produced their second prototypes, they too had the wash-out feature incorporated into the wingtips.  The results of the evaluation concluded that the Ki-33 was superior to the Nakajima Ki-27 both in speed and control.  However, the prolonged evaluation of the two designs resulted in modifications made by Nakajima to the Ki-27, some of which included newer wing designs with different wing area and wash-out.  Mitsubishi made few if any changes to its Ki-33, recognizing a pattern, either real or imagined, of the rejection cycle that had occurred with its Ki-18." (Mikesh, 188)

-- "As a consequence, the Nakajima Ki-27 was determined to be the superior fighter and was accepted by the Army as the Type 97 Fighter.  Kawasaki's Ki-28 with its water-cooled Ha-9 II Ko recorded the maximum speed of 261 kt [483 km/h] during the winter season (speed would have decreased by 5.5 kt during the heat of summer).  The fighter failed in the competition because Kawasaki ignored the importance placed by the Army on maneuverability for dog-fighting rather than pure speed." (Mikesh, 188)

-- Nakajima Ha-1a engine developed from the Kotobuki 3; 710hp @ takeoff, 775hp @ 3700m. (Januszewski, 11)

-- "The Ki-33 differed from the Ki-18 mainly in that it had a new, air-cooled 9-cylinder Nakajima Ha-1a radial (an elaborated Kotobuki) of 620/745hp, a different engine cowling, slightly redesigned fin and rear fuselage, and a half-enclosed cockpit with a backwards sliding canopy consisting of one top and two side glass panels ... second prototype, Ki-33.02, was completed in late 1936." (Wieliczko, 12)

 

Span  m	11 m
Length  m	7.545 m
Height  m	3.19 m
Wing area  m2	17.80
Empty weight  kg	1132
Loaded weight  kg	1462
Wing loading  kg/m2	82.2
Power loading  kg/hp	1.97
Climb rate	5:56 to 5000 m

2 built in 1936; data above from Mikesh (188).

 

 

 

Tier V Premium

 

Mitsubishi A6M3 -- "Hamp" / "Zeke 32" (06/1941)

 

-- essentially an A6M2 with square-tipped wings and experimental 30mm cannons

-- see technical details under A6M1

-- see narrative under A6M2

 

 

 

Tier VI Premium

 

Kawasaki Ki-88  (1942-1943) -- Experimental Fighter

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed (est.)	Armament
Mockup	VI  Ki-88	VI  Kawasaki Ha-140 1500hp	600 km/h @ 6000m (est.)	VI  1x37mm Ho-203 (H)	VI  2x20mm Ho-5 (S)

Specifications in-game

 

Notes:

-- designed by Tsuchii Takeo after 08/1942, possibly inspired by H.M. Poyer's Bell P-39 Airacobra which saw limited action in the Battle of Guadalcanal. (Francillon); By moving the engine further back in the fuselage, heavy armament could then be placed in the nose with the benefit of improved accuracy (image 1 / image 2); radiator almost directly underneath pilot seat; fuel tanks in the wings behind each wheel well; air scoop for turbo- or supercharger on left side of the fuselage, just above the trailing edge of the wing (Francillon, Dyer); development of the prototype was halted after 06/1943 in favor of the Ki-61, which was already in production (Francillon)

 

 

 

Tier VII Premium

 

Mitsubishi J4M Senden (Flashing Lightning)  閃電  --  "Luke"  (1943) -- Experimental Interceptor Fighter

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
	VII  J4M1       J4M4	VIII  Mitsubishi (Ha-43) MK9D 2100hp*	756 km/h @ 8000m (est.) 703 km/h @ 8000m (est.)	1x30mm Type 5  and VII  2x20mm Type 99-2

Data: Dyer.  *1650hp @ 8000m.   Specifications in-game.

 

Notes:

-- J4M1 Model 1 three-view (Docavia #7) / update 1.6 J4M [pictured above]

-- J4M1 Model 3 three-view (Docavia #7) / old in-game J4M

 

 

Tachikawa Ki-94-I (10/1943+) -- Experimental Fighter

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament			Bombs
Mockup (10/1943)	Ki-94-I high-alt fighter	VII 2x Mitsubishi Ha-211 Ru (Ha-43 Ru)*	781 km/h @ 10000m (est.)	VII  2x30mm Ho-155 (W)	IX  2x37mm Ho-204		2x50 kg
	Ki-104 heavy fighter			VII  2x30mm Ho-155 (W)	IX  2x37mm Ho-204	2x57mm Ho-401	VI  2x250 kg (500kg total)

* same engine is found in Mansyu Ki-98 below

 

Notes:

-- Tachikawa produced Ki-84's for Nakajima.

-- initial design to be a high-altitude fighter; thought to be too unorthodox, too complex to build, and performance estimates too optimistic (Dyer, 54)

-- reworked to be a heavy fighter with the addition of 2x57mm (designated Rikugun Kogiken Ki-104), but this design too was rejected (Dyer, 54)

-- overall design reworked into monoplane form as Ki-94-II for high-altitude fighter competition with Ki-87, which was accepted (Dyer, 54)

-- pressurized cockpit (Dyer, 54)

-- Docavia #7 claims 2x37mm, 2x30mm, and 2x50kg; assumed to reference the Ki-94-I version.

-- Dyer claims 2x37mm, 2x30mm, 2x57mm, and up to 500kg of bombs; assumed to reference the Ki-104 version.

-- See this post for 3-view drawings, colorized pictures of the original mock-up, video of an RC model, etc.

-- More pictures and models here (must register for forum access).

-- the armament is almost the same as the Kawasaki Ki-88 tier VI premium, though the 37mm's rate of fire is upgraded considerably:

• 37mm Ho-203 (as found on Ki-88)
• 37mm Ho-204 (as found on Ki-94-I and Ki-98)

 

Performance at altitude (Dyer, 54):

altitude (m)	horsepower (hp)	climb (mm:ss)	speed (km/h)
1500	2700
2800	2800
10000		9:56 (est.) *	781 (est.) *
10500	1750
14000		ceiling

*based on these estimates, the performance of Ki-94-I would exceed Ki-87.

*16.78 m/s avg

 

 

 

Tier VIII Premium

 

Mitsubishi J8M (08/1945) -- Experimental Rocket-Powered Interceptor Fighter

-- in-game specifications; for Army versions (Ki-200, Ki-202), see here.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 09 November 2016 - 10:08 PM.

[_Down_Range]

J311yfish, on 11 March 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

 

Kogiken series:

 

-- group of engineers assembled in summer 1941

-- designs were nearly complete by September 1941

-- led by Lieutenant Commander Ando Sheigo

-- the task was to study all known aviation technology (Japanese as well as other countries) in order to determine what might be possible in the present and near future

-- from the results of these studies the group was to draft proposals for aircraft that might take advantage of their forward-thinking  (like a skunk works)

-- they identified 4 roles or "plans" (heavy fighter, light bomber, heavy bomber, reconnaissance) and a fifth plan (high speed) to be incorporated into the previous 4.

-- none of the Kogiken aircraft were constructed; it produced instead ideas that went into the development of other aircraft

-- Dyer gives these examples:  Ki-64 using Ha-201 coupled engine with a surface evaporation cooling system; Kawasaki Ki-88 using fuselage-buried Ha-140 to drive propeller via extension shaft; Mitsubishi Ki-46-III may have benefited from aerodynamic streamlining studies.

-- there are 9 pages devoted to discussion of the plans (concepts, proposed engines, armament, variations), but no mention of a Plan 1 Type C.  However ...

 

Here is what Dyer says about the Dornier Do 335 Pfeil fighter bomber:

-- "it was believed that the Japanese were provided with a description of the Do 335 in March 1945 but no substantive information was released to them."

 

If all of that information is accurate then it suggests that the Type C might be a fiction because it doesn't fit chronologically.

 

Source: Edwin Dyer

 

Mitsubishi-Payen Pa.400:

 

-- French aircraft designer Nicholas Roland Payen

-- designed several unusual aircraft (trapezoidal fore-wing with ailerons + rear delta wing with horizontal control surfaces)

-- French military showed no interest

-- 1938 Mitsubishi expresses interest in Payen's designs; Payen meets with IJN representatives

-- Payen adapted his Pa.112 concept to be a carrier-borned light bomber, to be called Pa.400

-- September 23 1938, French government authorizes sharing technical information

-- project abandoned either due to Payen not sharing the information on the brink of war, or IJN losing interest

-- Dyer explains several technical limitations of the design that may explain possible loss of interest by IJN

-- no prototypes produced

 

Source: Edwin Dyer

 

A7M3:

 

-- A7M3-J concept was to be powered by turbosupercharged version of the MK9A; max speed 649 km/h at 10,000m expected

-- design complete November 1944

-- mock-up inspected February 1945

-- prototype planned for October 1945, interrupted by surrender

-- a further development of the A7M3-J (using a different engine, and carrier-based) was left on the drawing board at surrender

-- A7M3 Model 23 was to be designed around MK9C with a mechanically-driven three-speed supercharger; 642 km/h max speed expected at 8700m

-- Model 23 favored over the J because it could use the A7M2 airframe without major redesign

-- armament to be 6x20mm Type 99 Model 2's in the wings

-- scheduled to be completed by December 1945, interrupted by surrender

-- no prototypes produced

 

Source: Rene Francillon

 

 

I will look closer at the other aircraft in your list.  If you can recommend sources other than Francillon or Dyer I would be glad to check them out.

 

When I began this project I had to set several rules for myself in order to have a clear direction.  One of the rules was that I was going to give preference to high-production aircraft (those that were actually in the war); yet I have discovered that the tech trees of other countries do not necessarily adhere to that rule.  The Russian attack line for example has several IL's that never had more than 10 produced, yet they are there presumably to complete the line and offer an alternate path of progression.  Another example is the Bf 109 Z (only one built, but never flown).  I could certainly use the that precedent (or the J7W3) to devise any tree I want in the name of fun, but then it becomes deeply subjective and not very useful for making predictions.  

 

I don't know how to account for the "fun factor" but I imagine it would involve identifying different themes and trying to work them into the tree, such as:

-- a fighter line that focuses on speed and rate of climb rather than maneuverability

-- a discernible ground attack line

-- a discernible heavy-fighter line or "night fighter" concept if maps are made to be dark ***

-- a dive bomber line if it becomes relevant

 

Anyway, I'll leave the "fun factor" to developers because it is their business and I think they've done a great job so far.  I'm kind of hooked if you haven't noticed.  If nothing else comes of this tech tree adventure then it has certainly been fun just learning about all of the different aircraft.

 

 

 

 

 

Seeing that WoT and WoWP are run by the same folks and share a common general plan for the games ( allowing vehicles in game that did not get off paper or out of prototype )  to dismiss an aircraft because it did not fit into the realm of deployed, functioning planes is incorrect as far as this game goes. The JPE-100 in WoT is a prime example of that.

[J311yfish]

Update 1.4 Public Test patch notes

 New Premium and gift planes for developers only:

 

De Havilland 98 Mosquito FB 26 - China Tier VI Premium heavy fighter
CKB I-7 - Soviet, Tier II gift fighter
Kawasaki Ki-5 - Japan, Tier II gift fighter
Hawker Hurricane IID - Great Britain, Tier V gift ground attack plane

[J311yfish]

This post reserved for detailed comparison of climb rates

 

Tier I and II

Tier altitude (m)	I Type 91	II Type 92	II Ki-3	II Ki-5	.....	II D1A	II A4N	II Ki-10	II Ki-11
1000
2000
3000	4:00		12:00			9:30 (D1A1) 7:51 (D1A2)	3:30		6:09
4000
5000		8:10 (KDA-5) 8:00 (Type 92)		8:00				5:00
6000
7000			ceiling			ceiling			*
8000							ceiling
9000	ceiling			ceiling
10000		ceiling						ceiling (I)
11000
12000								ceiling (II)

Ceilings are rounded up or down; for exact ceilings see each aircraft entry.  * not specified, however same engine as D1A1.  

Type 92 and Ki-3 are shown for comparison to affirm early Kawasaki progression.  Ki-5 has been identified as a premium.

 

Conclusions based on historical climb rates:

A4N's climb rate (14.29 m/s avg to 3000m)

D1A1/2's climb rate is poorest relative to A4N (5.26 and 6.37 m/s avg to 3000m)

Ki-11's climb rate is poor relative to A4N (8.13 m/s avg to 3000m)

Ki-10's climb rate slightly exceeds A4N (16.67 m/s avg to 5000m) --> best climber and highest ceiling

 

Historical vs. in-game comparison:

A4N's historical value (14.29 m/s avg to 3000m) exceeds its in-game value (9.0 - 11.0 m/s); optimum altitude 700m

Ki-5's historical value (10.42 m/s avg to 5000m) approximates its in-game value (10.9 m/s); optimum altitude 900m

 

Meaning:

A4N climb rate has been reduced from historical value

D3A is likely to have climb rate and optimum altitude below A4N

Ki-11 is likely to have climb rate and optimum altitude comparable to A4N

Ki-10 is likely to have climb rate and optimum altitude greater than A4N

 

tl;dr

II:  Kawasaki > Nakajima A4N > Nakajima Ki-11 > Aichi

 

 

Tier II and III

Tier altitude (m)	II Ki-10	II Ki-11	...	III Ki-18	III Ki-33	III A5M	III D3A	III Ki-28	III Ki-27
1000									1:10
2000									2:06
3000		6:09				3:35 (A5M4)	6:27 (D3A1) 5:48 (D3A2)	2:54	2:59
4000									4:04
5000	5:00			5:56 (Januszewski) 6:26 (Mikesh)	5:56 (Mikesh) 6:26 (Januszewski)	5:54 (Ka-14) 8:30 (A5M1) 7:59 (A5M2a)		5:10	5:22
6000
7000		*
8000
9000							ceiling (D3A1)
10000	ceiling (I)					ceiling
11000							ceiling (D3A2)	ceiling
12000	ceiling (II)								ceiling

Ceilings are rounded up or down; for exact ceilings see each aircraft entry.  Ki-10 and Ki-11 are shown only to indicate progress from previous tiers.

 

Conclusions based on historical climb rates:

A5M1's climb rate (9.80 m/s avg to 5000m)

D3A1/2's climb rate is slightly inferior to A5M (7.75 m/s and 8.62 m/s avg to 3000m)

Ki-27's climb rate exceeds A5M (15.53 m/s avg to 5000m)

Ki-28's climb rate far exceeds A5M (16.13 m/s avg to 5000m)

 

Historical vs. in-game comparison:

A5M1's historical value (9.80 m/s avg to 5000m) is below its in-game value (11.6-14.8 m/s); optimum altitude 800m

Ki-18 ........................................................................................................................................optimum altitude 550m

Ki-33 ........................................................................................................................................optimum altitude 550m

-- resolve Ki-18 and Ki-33 data

 

Meaning:

A5M climb rate has been increased slightly from historical value

D3A is likely to have climb rate and optimum altitude below A5M

Ki-27 and Ki-28 are likely to have climb rates and optimum altitudes greater than A5M

Ki-18 and Ki-33 optimum altitudes are puzzling -- is that a compensatory mechanism to give them greater performance at low altitudes due to lower weight?  It is otherwise the same engine as A5M, Ki-27.

 

tl;dr

III:  Kawasaki ≈ Nakajima > Mitsubishi > Aichi

 

 

Tier IV, V, VI

Tier altitude (m)	IV, V, VI A6M	IV / V / V D4Y1 / M6A / B7A J2M / N1K1-J	IV / V, VII Ki-45 / Ki-102	IV Ki-60	V, VI Ki-61	VII Ki-64	VII Ki-100	IV / V Ki-43	V / VI Ki-44	VI / VII, VIII Ki-84 / Ki-87
1000
2000
3000		5:14 (D4Y1 11) 4:36 (D4Y2 12) 4:35 (D4Y3 33) 9:22 (D4Y4 43) 5:48 (M6A1)
4000		6:55 (B7A2)
5000			10:12 (Ki-45) 6:17 (Ki-45 KAIa) 7:00 (Ki-45-KAIc) 6:00 (Ki-96) 6:54 (Ki-102b)	8:00	5:31 (Ki-61-Ib)        7:00 (Ki-61-I KAIc) 6:00 (Ki-61-II KAIa)	5:30	6:00 (Ki-100-I) 6:40 (Ki-100-II)	5:30 (Ki-43-Ia) 5:49 (Ki-43-IIb) 5:19 (Ki-43-IIIa)	5:54 (Ki-44-Ia) 4:17 (Ki-44-IIb)	5:54 (Ki-84-Ia) 5:00 (Ki-106) 6:54 (Ki-113)
6000	7:27 (A6M2 21) 7:19 (A6M3 32) 7:01 (A6M5 52) 6:50 (A6M8 64)	5:38 (J2M2) 6:14 (J2M3) 6:20 (J2M5) 7:50 (N1K1-J)
7000
8000
9000		ceiling (D4Y4 43)
10000	ceiling (A6M2 21)	ceiling (D4Y1 11) ceiling (M6A1) 19:30 (J2M4)	ceiling (Ki-45 KAIc) ceiling (Ki-102b) 18:00 (Ki-102c)	ceiling	ceiling (Ki-61-I KAIc)		20:00 (Ki-100-I) 18:00 (Ki-100-II)			14:12 (Ki-87) ceiling (Ki-113)
11000	ceiling (A6M3 32) ceiling (A6M8 64)	ceiling (D4Y2 12) ceiling (D4Y3 33) ceiling (J2M1)	ceiling (Ki-45 KAIa)		ceiling (Ki-61-II KAIa)		ceiling	ceiling (Ki-43-IIb) ceiling (Ki-43-IIIa)	ceiling	ceiling (Ki-84-Ia) ceiling (Ki-106)
12000	ceiling (A6M5 52)	ceiling (J2M3) ceiling (J2M4) ceiling (J2M5) ceiling (N1K1-J)	ceiling (Ki-96) ceiling (Ki-102c) ceiling (Ki-108) ceiling (Ki-108 KAI)		ceiling (Ki-61-Ib)	ceiling		ceiling (Ki-43-Ia)		ceiling (Ki-87)

Data: Francillon

 

tl;dr

IV:  Nakajima > Mitsubishi > Kawasaki ≈ Yokosuka

V:   Nakajima  ≈ Mitsubishi J2M > Kawasaki > Mitsubishi > Aichi

VI:  Nakajima ≈ Kawasaki > Mitsubishi > Kawanishi > Aichi

VII: see next table

 

 

Tier VII, VIII, IX, X

Tier altitude (m)	VII / VIII, IX / X A7M / J8M / Ki-202	VII / VIII, IX, X N1K2-J / J7W	VII / VIII / IX, X S1A / Ki-93 / Ki-201 / R2Y2	...	VII Ki-83	VII Ki-64	...	VIII / VIII Ki-87 / Kikka	...	VII J4M
1000
2000	0:40 (J8M) 1:21 (Ki-202)
3000			4:18 (Ki-93)
4000	2:08 (J8M) 2:00 (Ki-202)
5000						5:30
6000	9:54 (A7M1) 6:07 (A7M2) 2:34 (Ki-202)		9:03 (Ki-93) 6:17 est. (Ki-201 Ne-130) 6:17 est. (Ki-201 Ne-230)		4:33 (postwar U.S.)			11:18 (Kikka)
7000
8000	3:08 (J8M) 3:02 (Ki-202)	10:40 (J7W1)
9000
10000	13:06 est. (A7M3) 15:00 est. (A7M3-J) 3:50 (J8M) 3:40 (Ki-200) 3:26 (Ki-202)		13:15 est. (Ki-201 Ne-130) 14:56 est. (Ki-201 Ne-230) 7:00 est. (R2Y2)		8:58 (postwar U.S.) 10:00 (Japan)			14:12 (Ki-87)
11000
12000						ceiling		ceiling (Ki-87)

Data: Francillon and Dyer

 

identify all estimates

 

tl;dr -- climb rates:

VII:   Mitsubishi Ki-83 > Mitsubishi A7M ≈ Kawasaki Ki-64

VIII:  Mitsubishi

IX:    Mitsubishi

X:     Mitsubishi

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 16 January 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[J311yfish]

The current tree is fine for making predictions, but there is room for improvement.  I am working on an improved tree to resolve these things:

 

1.  Organization by manufacturer (Mitsubishi, Nakajima, Kawasaki), not Army/Navy by production values.  

-- Army/Navy distinction made sense in the beginning to reduce chaos, but if implemented as such it would be the only tree to be organized that way

-- this should better fit the WG tech tree model and should mean more aircraft (including prototypes) in the long run.

 

2.  Tier placement determined by engine takeoff horsepower, not speeds.

-- speeds are superficial indicators that are highly variable by altitude and aerodynamic refinement

-- Kawasaki line engine tier can be accurately determined by the Ki-88 now in game, and the Daimler-Benz engines of the German tree

-- Nakajima line engine tier can be accurately determined by the Ki-43 expected to be in game soon, then compared sideways to Kawasaki

-- this should better fit the WG Tech tree model and should mean more precise placement

[pyantoryng]

J311yfish, on 18 June 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

The current tree is fine for making predictions, but there is room for improvement.  I am working on an improved tree to resolve these things:

 

1.  Organization by manufacturer (Mitsubishi, Nakajima, Kawasaki), not Army/Navy by production values.  

-- Army/Navy distinction made sense in the beginning to reduce chaos, but if implemented as such it would be the only tree to be organized that way

 

In a sense, the American fighter lines are organized by Army/Navy, as in the Grumman/Vought line are carrier-based planes, whereas the Curtiss/North American line are land-based planes (but for gameplay purposes the FJ-1 was designated normal fighter even in the days when CBF designation existed).

[J311yfish]

Yes; that was the main reason for organizing along Army/Navy lines to begin with, along with Francillon's organization, but I am finding that if I follow the French model (that has no choice but to ignore the distinction) then organization by manufacturer (Demon93's method) with minor developments to fill the gaps, it starts to look really good.  I think you'll see what I mean ... here is a rough overview:

 

                                                                                                         FIGHTERS

	"Mitsubishi"		"Nakajima"		"Kawasaki"
I			Type 91 (05/1928)
II	A4N (1934)		Ki-11 (04/1935)		Ki-10 (03/1935)
III	A5M (02/1935)		Ki-27 (10/1936)		Ki-28 (~10/1936)
IV	A6M1 (04/1939)		Ki-43 (01/1939)		Yokosuka D4Y1 (12/1940)
V	A6M2 (12/1939) ------------>		Ki-43-III (05/1944+) or Ki-44-I		Ki-60 / Ki-61-I (03/1941) / (12/1941)
VI	A6M5 (1943+)	J2M (03/1942)	Ki-44-I/II (08/1940) (08/1942)		Ki-61-II / Ki-100 (12/1941) / (02/1945)
VII	A7M (05/1944)	N1K1/2-J (05/1942) (12/1943)	Ki-84 (04/1943)		Ki-119 (~09/1945)
VIII	Kyushu J7W1 (08/1945) <--	J4M (1943+)	Ki-87 (04/1945) -------------->	Kitsuka (08/1945)	Ki-64 (12/1943)
IX	Kyushu J7W2	J8M (1945)	Ki-201 (1945) <----------------		Yokosuka R2Y2 (1945)
X	Kyushu J7W3		Rikugun Ki-202 (1945)		Variable 2

 

Organized this way it starts to look more like the playable trees of other countries, rather than "fanning out" at VII/VIII.  It also comes close to maintaining consistent themes for each line:

 

Themes

Mitsubishi/Kyushu -- maneuverability, with J2M and J4M emphasis on speed and climb, with primarily Mitsubishi air-cooled engines; primary designer Jiro Horikoshi of Mitsubishi

Nakajima -- maneuverability up to Ki-43, then emphasis on speed, climb, survivability, with primarily Nakajima air-cooled engines; primary designer Yasushi Koyama of Nakajima

Kawasaki/Yokosuka -- German water-cooled engines produced by Kawasaki and Aichi until Ki-61-II; fighter bomber trend continued by Yokosuka; primary designer Takeo Doi of Kawasaki (influenced by Richard Vogt).

 

---

 

Heavy fighters are their own challenge, but by eliminating Army/Navy distinction it is possible to have them together off to the right of Kawasaki (similar in manner to the German tree), and allows a distinction to be made between those that favor large calibers (Heavy I), and those that favor a lighter/faster approach (Heavy II), in order to have everything included:

 

                                        HEAVY FIGHTERS

	Heavy I (heavier)	Heavy II (lighter/faster)
I
II	Aichi D1A (1934+)	Ki-30 (02/1937) or Ki-32 (03/1937)
III	Aichi D3A (12/1937+)	Ki-51 (06/1939)
IV	Ki-45 (~01/1939)         37mm	J1N1 (05/1941)
V	Ki-96 (08/1943)           37mm	Ki-46-I/II (11/1939) / (03/1941)
VI	Ki-102 (03/1944)         37mm/57mm	Ki-46-III/IV (12/1942) (1943-1944)
VII	Ki-109 (08/1944) *       75mm	J5N1 (07/1944)
VIII	Rikugun Ki-93 (1945)  57mm/75mm	Ki-83 (11/1944)
IX
X

*or Aichi S1A (1945)

 

In general, those in the Heavy I category have greater armor and armament at the expense of speed; primary designer Takeo Doi of Kawasaki.

In general, those in the Heavy II category are ~30-50 km/h faster at the expense of armor and armament; primary designer Tomio Kubo of Mitsubishi.

 

For engine/armament details see page 5 and use Control + F to navigate quickly, or use links in the above table and scroll up/down.

 

This method would also reduce the list of sidelined/alternate/premium/gift planes considerably:

 

                                                                  ALTERNATES

Tier	Navy	Army	Captured / Bought / Tested *
I	A2N  (1932) 1MF10 (~03/1933)	Type 92 (07/1930) Ki-4 (~03/1934) Ki-8 (~03/1934)
II		Ki-5 (used) (~02/1934) Ki-30 (02/1937)  Ki-32 (03/1937)
III		Ki-12 (~10/1936) Ki-33 (used) (~08/1936)	AXV1 / A8V-1 / A7He1 / CW-21
IV			F2A
V			P-40 / LaGG-3 / Hurricane / Bf109E
VI		Ki-62 / Ki-63 (1941) Ki-66 (10/1942) Ki-88 (used) (1942+)	P-51C / Fw190 A-5
VII	Aichi B7A (1942-1944)	N1K5-J	DB-7B
VIII	Aichi S1A (1945)	Ki-94-I (1943) Ki-83 (11/1944) Ki-94-II (08/1945) Mansyu Ki-98 (1945)	Fw Ta152
IX		Kayaba Ku-4
X			F-86F

 

Mitsubishi  /  Nakajima  /  Kawasaki  /  Tachikawa  /  already used as premium

 

 

Other thoughts on why this approach makes sense:

 

On mixing Army/Navy:

It is true that IJN and IJA functioned independently (specifications, resources, designations), but it is equally true that the major companies competed with each other for contracts across Army/Navy lines, used each others' engines along the way, and even collaborated across the line towards the end, so proceeding in this manner is not unreasonable.

 

 

On the choice of Yokosuka D4Y1 for the "Kawasaki" Tier IV:

-- there is nothing there for Kawasaki

-- D4Y1 continues German engine use and development with DB600G 960hp and Aichi AE1A Atsuta 1200hp (Daimler-Benz produced under license), fitting in between Ki-28 and Ki-60

-- Kawasaki continues the German engine trend with BMW before (Ki-10, Ki-28), and Daimler-Benz after (Ki-60+)

-- initially used for night fighter/recon along with J1N1; developed by Aichi only later into dive bomber 03/1943 (engines used from that point on are too big for the tier 1400-1800hp)

-- D4Y1 development details (Francillon) [sidenote: Wikipedia does not have these details]

-- Yokosuka R2Y2 is otherwise odd/alone at Tier IX

 

 

Pros/Cons:

PRO

-- 3 distinct lines of fighters, and 2 distinct lines of heavy fighters, with consistent themes

-- more closely resembles the tech trees of other countries

-- accommodates a wider spectrum of aircraft without making arbitrary exclusions; establishes clear room for growth

 

CON

-- tier placement by engine horsepower dampens the advantage held by J2M and N1K1-J development; chronology would otherwise put them 1 tier ahead relative to the Nakajima line

-- There are several minor disagreements in chronology due to sequential, protracted, or continued development, as indicated by the first flight or expected completion date (parenthesis), but I suspect that this might be resolved by looking closer at when the specifications or contracts were issued (truer/wider chronologies with acceptable overlap)

-- smaller pool of potential premiums

 

 

Sources:

-- Kawasaki Ki-88 in game

-- Daimler-Benz engine details from German tech tree in game (produced and modified further by Kawasaki and Aichi)

-- engine details on page 5 of this thread (sources noted)

-- Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, by Rene Francillon (1970)

 

 

Anyway, that's the proof of concept for a full-saturation model and might be closer to what eventually takes shape.

Edited by J311yfish, 18 August 2014 - 01:48 AM.

[J311yfish]

Big update

-- based on Demon93's model and lessons learned from the French tree, the Japanese tree is now organized by manufacturer and horsepower.

-- all heavy fighters are now included with distinction between those that favor speed (such as Ki-83) and those that favor armament (such as Ki-93).

-- all details on page 5 have been cleaned up and reorganized with spoiler tags and color code for easier navigation.

[Youimcolo]

Sorry, I just had to point out. The Japanese characters for the F-86-J's nickname, Kyokkou are mistaken. the correct characters are「旭光」.

 

In addition, the T-1 training craft was designed not only to hold one 12.7mm heavy machine gun for shooting practice, and had the capacity to mount either Sidewinder AAMs, bombs, or gunpods on the wings. though as WG seems adamant on not implementing missiles, the armament on the T-1 would be limited to the guns and 2 750kg bombs.

Also, why does everyone reffer to the Kikka as "Kitsuka"? The 'tsu' in「きっか」is pronounced as a sharp sound after the 'Ki', and not as its own word.

[J311yfish]

Youimcolo, on 21 June 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Sorry, I just had to point out. The Japanese characters for the F-86-J's nickname, Kyokkou are mistaken. the correct characters are「旭光」.

 

Thank you, will update!

 

Youimcolo, on 21 June 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Also, why does everyone refer to the Kikka as "Kitsuka"? The 'tsu' in「きっか」is pronounced as a sharp sound after the 'Ki', and not as its own word.

 

Here is what Edwin Dyer says about the Kikka/Kitsuka naming convention -- quote.  

 

He also claims the translation to be not just "Orange Blossom" but rather "Wild Orange Blossom."

 

He makes a similar case for the Mitsubishi J8M -- quote.

 

Do you agree with his approach?  It is beyond my understanding, but I really hope to learn Japanese someday.

[J311yfish]

This post is to explore Kikka/Kitsuka and Ki-201 in detail relative to the Me262, J7W2, and Ki-202 in order to better understand how they might be implemented.

 

DIMENSIONS

 

This just indicates that Kitsuka is smaller than Me262, while Ki-201 is larger, and that Ki-202 is smallest of all.

 

	Kitsuka * (3-view)	Me262A-2a (3-view)	Ki-201 (3-view)	Ki-202
Tier	VIII	IX	IX	X
Span (m)	10.0	12.5	13.68	9.72
Length (m)	9.23	10.58	11.49	7.68
Height (m)	3.04		4.05	2.74

[Sources:  Edwin Dyer, Bill Gunston, Docavia #7] * definitive interceptor version.  

 

Kayaba Katsuodori (ram jet point interceptor) is even smaller, 8.99m / 4.48m / 1.85m

 

 

ARMAMENT

 

This just indicates that armament trend for the Nakajima line is lighter.

 

	Kitsuka *	Me262A-2a	Ki-201	Ki-202
Cannons	2x30mm Type 5  or	4x30mm MK 108	2x30mm Ho-155-II  and	2x30mm Ho-155
	2x30mm Ho-155		2x20mm Ho-5
Bombs (kg)	1x500 or 1x800	2x250 or 2x500	1x500 or 1x800	None

[Sources:  Edwin Dyer, Bill Gunston, Docavia #7] * definitive interceptor version.  

 

Kayaba Katsuodori  2x30mm 

 

 

MANEUVERABILITY

...as indicated by wing loading.  Not the only consideration, but quantifiable; lower is better.

 

This might indicate that Kitsuka is to be less maneuverable than Me-262, while Ki-201 is more maneuverable, with Ki-202 the most maneuverable of all.

 

	Kitsuka *	Me262A-2a	Ki-201	Ki-202
Wing Area (m2)	13.19	21.73	23.96	18.39
Empty (kg)	3060	4500	4495	1619
Loaded (kg)	4232	7500	7021	3384
Wing loading (kg/m2)	232 - 321	207 - 345	187 - 293	88 - 184

[Sources:  Edwin Dyer, Bill Gunston, Docavia #7] * definitive interceptor version.  

 

Kayaba Katsuodori  12.57 m²  /  850kg  /  3000 kg  /  68 - 239 kg/m² .... potentially more maneuverable than Ki-202.

 

 

SPEED / CLIMB

[work in progress ... differences between historical/implemented Japanese jet engines make this more complicated, but it should still be possible to establish parameters ... this will be resolved very soon]

 

The general trend for speed (historical values/estimates) is consistent with tier progression.

 

	Kitsuka *	Me262A-2a	Ki-201	Ki-202
Max speed (km/h)	670 @ 10000m (2x Ne-20) 713 @ 10000m (2x Ne-130) ___ @ _____m (2x Ne-330)	850 (2x Jumo 004B)	812 @ 10000m (2x Ne-230) 845 @ 10000m (2x Ne-130)	900 @ 10000m (KR20)
Max dive speed (km/h)			1006 km/h
Rate of climb	12:06 to 6000m (2x Ne-20) 11:18 to 6000m (2x Ne-130) __:__ to 6000m (2x Ne-330)		6:54 to 6000m (2x Ne-230) 6:17 to 6000m (2x Ne-130)	2:34 to 6000m (KR20)
Ceiling			12000m	12000m

[Sources:  Edwin Dyer, Bill Gunston, Docavia #7] * definitive interceptor version.

 

If the details above are accurate, then the rate of climb for Kitsuka is hindered despite using the same engines as Ki-201, presumably due to lower lift generated by smaller wing area [speculation].

 

The primary advantage of the Ki-202 is its smaller size and rate of climb, so it deserves a closer look:

 

Rate of climb, Ki-202 (estimated) vs. J7W3 (in-game):

Altitude	Time to alt.	Ki-202 rate of climb avg.	J7W3 in-game
2000m	81s	24.69 m/s	28.1 m/s
4000m	120s	33.33 m/s
6000m	154s	38.96 m/s
8000m	182s	43.01 m/s
10,000m	206s	48.54 m/s

  12,000m ceiling in common (estimated)

 

If this information is correct, then the Ki-202 should be hindered climbing from low altitudes, but should be superior at higher altitudes [Higher altitude band].

 

The J7W2 and Ki-202 are described as having the same ceiling [this just means that current altitude restrictions should not be a barrier to implementation].

 

The J7W3 in-game (details here) has a 20 m/s advantage in the horizontal, while Ki-202 instead has at most a 20 m/s advantage in the vertical.

 

 This does not appear to be game-breaking information.

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 22 June 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[J311yfish]

gunlion, on 23 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

Hey everyone! We apologize for the delay in getting these answers to you; we've taken the top questions from April and May and combined them into one thread: 

 

Question: Are there any plans to add the Beta planes (P-39, P-51 JP, Me 609, J4M1, Me 109 TL, etc.) and nose art that were removed prior to release? Will we eventually see them in upcoming patches?

Answer: Some of them have already been added into the game (like the P-39 in 1.4.0, a USSR LVL6 Premium); some of them will be added in the near future (for example, in 1.6.0); and some of them a little bit later. The same thing with the nose art as well.

...

 

Q: What are the plans for future GA lines? Or could we get a teaser for the German GAs?

A: There are planes for future GA lines, but we are not ready to tease the details just yet. Sorry! 

 

Q: 75mm guns were mounted or planned for on the B-25G, A-26, Ki-93 and Hs-129, among others. Are there caliber limits placed in WoWP - if so, how large can a cannon be - if not, can these planes be expected to be seen?

A: We have no technical limits for caliber of guns! In reality, 75mm guns were powerful and specialized anti-tank guns. Aircraft armed with such a caliber had very little maneuverability and were not suitable for air combat. The rate of fire of these primary weapons were only what was necessary to take out tanks. We have not introduced these guns as planes equipped with them would be almost defenseless against fighters, and with current ground targets it is better to fight with rapid-fire guns. But with progressive ground-target types, such calibers might possibly be needed--but probably not soon.

 

 

 ^ That essentially means Nakajima J5N1 and/or Aichi S1A for Tier VII, and if Ki-93 is to appear anytime soon it will be the 57mm version.

Edited by J311yfish, 23 June 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[rdizz81]

J311yfish, on 24 February 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Designers / Chronology / Details

 

Premiums, alternates, gift planes (tiers approx):

Tier	Navy	Army	Captured / Bought / Tested *
I	A2N  (1932) 1MF10 (~03/1933)	Type 92 (07/1930) Ki-4 (~03/1934) Ki-8 (~03/1934)
II		Ki-5 (used) (~02/1934) Ki-32 (03/1937)
III		Ki-12 (~10/1936) Ki-33 (used) (~08/1936)	AXV1 / A8V-1 / A7He1 / CW-21
IV	Aichi D3A (01/1938)		F2A
V			P-40 / LaGG-3 / Hurricane / Bf109E
VI	J2M variants	Ki-62 / Ki-63 (1941) Ki-66 (10/1942) Ki-88 (used) (1942+)	P-51C / Fw190 A-5
VII	Aichi B7A (1942-1944) Aichi S1A (1945) Kawanishi N1K1-J variants	Mitsubishi Ki-109	DB-7B
VIII	Kawanishi J6K1	Ki-94-I (1943) Ki-94-II (08/1945) Mansyu Ki-98 (1945)	Fw Ta152
IX		Kayaba Ku-4
X			F-86F

 

For a look at how captured Japanese aircraft might fit into the Chinese tech tree see here.

 

Sources:

 

Excellent:

Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, by Rene Francillon (1970/1987) -- extremely comprehensive, this is an excellent starting point.

Japanese Aircraft of World War II, by Basil Collier (1979)

Japanese Secret Projects: Experimental Aircraft of the IJA and IJN 1939-1945, by Edwin Dyer (2009) -- fills in small gaps left by Francillon for prototypes/projects

Japanese Aircraft 1910-1941, by Robert Mikesh and Shorzoe Abe (1990) -- this covers the very early aircraft and is also helpful to understand designer lineage

Moonlight Interceptor: Japan's 'Irving' Night Fighter, by Robert Mikesh (1985) -- written by the NASM curator for the restoration of the last J1N1 in existence

Communist Chinese Air Power, by Richard M. Bueschel (1968) -- helpful for understanding Japanese aircraft captured by China

Nakajima Ki-43 Kayabusa, by Richard Bueschel (1995)

Kawasaki Ki-61/Ki-100 Hien in Japanese Army Air Force Service, Arco-Aircam Aviation Series No.27 (1971) -- specs, many color Ki-61/100 skin references

Ki-44 'Tojo' Aces of World War 2, by Nicholas Millman (2011) -- very good Ki-44 color skin references

Nakajima Ki-84, by the Aeronautical Staff of Aero Publishers, Inc (1965) --  close-up Ki-84 restoration photos

Jet Bombers: From the Messerchmitt Me262 to the Stealth B-2, by Bill Gunston with Peter Gilchrist (1993) -- details on Nakajima Kitsuka ("Kikka") not accounted for by Francillon or Dyer

Aircraft of the Aces, by Tony Holmes and Iain Wyllie (2000) -- Hiroyoshi Nishizawa and the A6M2/3, Yohei Hinoki and the Ki-43-Ic and Ki-100-Ib

Aces of the Rising Sun 1937-1945, by Henry Sakaida (2002)

Genda's Blade: Japan's Squadron of Aces, by Henry Sakaida and Koji Takaki (2003)

Samurai!, by Saburo Sakai, with Martin Caiden (2001)

 

Good:

Flying Colors, by William Green and Gordon Swanborough (1997) -- helpful for some historical skins -- A5M, A6M, Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-61, Ki-84

Les Chasseurs Japonais de la Deuxieme Guerre Mondiale (Docavia #7), by Bernard Millot -- composed in French, some details not seen anywhere else

Other specialized books and websites are mentioned under each aircraft throughout the thread

 

Fair:

The Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft, by Robert Jackson (2002) -- very broad overview of 650 aircraft from various countries, very thin on details

Wikipedia -- fair for a very rough draft, but authoritative sources are needed to validate everything and to get the good details.  

 

Not very helpful:

Aces High, by Bill Yenne -- several accounts of combat against the Ki-43 told from the American perspective

Aviation Century: World War II, by Ron [edited], Dan Patterson

Bombers Over Japan, by Keith Wheeler

Duel for the Sky, by Christopher Shores

Fire in the Sky, by Eric M. Bergerud

War Eagles in Original Color, by Jeffrey L. Ethell and Warren M. Bodie

 

Not at all helpful:

Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway, by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully -- surprisingly thin on detail for Japanese aircraft

War in the Air 1914-1945, by Williamson Murray

Wings of Gold: The U.S. Naval Air Campaign in World War II, by Gerald Astor

 

 

Acknowledgements:

Thank you to Wargaming for making such a fun and addictive game; my local and state library system for making historical research possible; and thank you to the experts in this thread that provided the kind of targeted advice and enthusiasm that kept me going in the right direction.

 

Older versions:

Army/Navy by production / Designers / Allied Code Names / Dive Bombers and Floatplanes

 

Alternates based on Army/Navy division model:

Tier	Navy	Army	Captured / Bought / Tested *
I	A2N / 1MF10	Type 92 / Ki-4 / Ki-8
II		Ki-5 / Ki-11 / Ki-30 / Ki-32
III		Ki-12 / Ki-28 / Ki-33 (used)	AXV1 / A8V-1 / A7He1 / CW-21
IV			F2A
V	J1N1 / N1K1	Ki-60 / Ki-46	P-40 / LaGG-3 / Hurricane / Bf109E
VI	J5N1 / S1A	Ki-62 / Ki-63 / Ki-88 (used)	P-51C / Fw190 A-5
VII		Ki-109	DB-7B
VIII		Ki-87 / Ki-64 / Ki-94-I / Ki-94-II / Ki-98	Fw Ta152
IX		Ku-4
X		J8M / Ki-200 / Ki-202	F-86F

*more

 

Love this.. Make it happen please. 

[J311yfish]

This post is reserved for a detailed examination of the "B" series of IJN aircraft.  

This is necessary in part to identify the exact origin of the Nakajima Kikka.

 

 

Kusho B3Y1 (1933) -- Navy Type 92 Carrier Attack Bomber

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
1 by Kusho ... Kusho Type 13 Kai (1932) 75 by Aichi (1933-1936) 23 by Watanabe (1933-1936) ~30 by Hiro Arsenal	B3Y1	Hiro Type 91  600-750hp	219 km/h	1x7.7mm fixed forward 1x7.7mm flexible rear	1x800kg torpedo or 1x500kg bomb or  2x250kg or 6x30kg

Data: Mikesh.

 

Notes:

-- "Under the design guidance of Tamefumi Suzuki ... modifications made by Tokuichiro Gomei of Aichi ... officially accepted by the Navy [08/1933 due to Gomei's modification].  Production was placed with Aichi, followed by Watanabe and the Hiro Arsenal after the prototype was built at the Yokosuka Arsenal ... early stages of the Sino-Japanese conflict ... noted for their success in level bombing against small targets ... gradually replaced [by D1A1, D1A2, B4Y1]." (Mikesh, 280-281)

-- Aichi B3Y1 (Mikesh, 75)

 

 

Kusho B4Y1 -- "Jean"  (late 1935) -- Navy Type 96 Carrier Attack Bomber

Production	Airframe/Variant	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
*	B4Y1 prototype 1	II   Hiro Type 91  750hp 600hp @ 1500m
*	B4Y1 prototype 2 and 3	III  Nakajima Kotobuki 3  640hp 715hp @ 2800m
*5 prototypes at Arsenal (1935-1936) 37 by Nakajima (1937-1938) 135 by Mitsubishi (1937-1938) 28 at Hiro (1938)	B4Y1 prototype 4, 5, production	III  Nakajima Hikari 2  840hp 700hp @ 1200m	278 km/h**	1x7.7mm Type 92 (rear)	1x800kg torpedo or up to 500kg of bombs

Data: Francillon.  **Francillon does not match the given speed to an exact engine.

 

Notes:

-- Designed by Dai-Ichi Kaigun Koku Gijitsusho (First Naval Air Technical Arsenal) at Yokosuka. (Francillon, 412; 449)

-- "The Arsenal's project was the work of Sanae Kawasaki, who endeavoured to design an aircraft capable of receiving various types of powerpants and making use of existing components.  To realize his goal ... matched a new fuselage and tail section to the wings of the Kawanishi E7K1 which had been found highly efficient.  The first B4Y1 prototype of this hybrid, powered by a Hiro Type 91 600hp liquid-cooled engine, was completed and flown in late 1935." (Francillon, 449)

-- "...regarded as a stopgap pending availability of a more modern aircraft possessing performance more compatible with that of the Navy Type 96 Carrier Fighter [A5M]." (Francillon, 412)

-- winner of competition against Mitsubishi B4M1 and Nakajima B4N1 [11/1936] ... Production allocated to Nakajima, Mitsubishi and Hiro Naval Arsenal.

 

Nakajima B4N1

 

Notes:

-- "For Nakajima the design of the new aircraft was shared by Takao Yoshia and Yasuo Fukuda.  Two prototypes were completed in 1936, one powered by a Kotobuki 3 engine, and the other by the Hikari 1." (Mikesh, 236)

 

 

Mitsubishi B4M1

 

Notes:

-- "... Hajime Matsuhara was assigned chief designer, assisted by Sadahiko Kato and Minoru Hasegawa ... completed [08/1934] ... first flight at Kagamigahara [08/25/1934]." (Mikesh, 172)

3x7.7mm

up to 800kg

Mitsubishi 8-Shi 14-cylinder radial 650-800hp ... became Kinsei

 

 

 

Mitsubishi B5M -- "Mabel"  (1937) -- Navy Type 97 Carrier Attack Bomber Model 2

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
125 (1937)	B5M1	IV  Mitsubishi Kinsei 43  1000hp	380 km/h @ 2200m	1x7.7mm	1x800kg torpedo or up to 800kg of bombs

Data: Francillon.

 

Notes:

-- "Of more conventional construction than the Nakajima B5N1, its competitor ... initially favored by the Navy ... put into production as the Navy Type 97 Carrier Attack Bomber Model 2; but production was terminated after the delivery of 125 machines because in service the Nakajima aircraft proved highly successful.  During the Pacific War, the B5M1's were operated from land bases in Southeast Asia for a brief period before being relegated to ancillary duties." (Francillon, 491)

-- "...were used only for anti-submarine patrols from Southern China and Hainan." (Hawkins, 6)

 

 

 

Nakajima B5N  -- "Kate"  (01/1937, 12/1939) -- Navy Type 97 Carrier Bomber

Production	Airframe/Variant	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
* (12/1936; FF 01/1937)	B5N prototype 1	III  Nakajima Hikari 2  700hp 800hp @ 3500m
*	B5N1	III  Nakajima Hikari 3  770hp 840hp @ 3000m	369 km/h @ 2000m	1x7.7mm Type 92 (rear)	1x800kg torpedo or up to 800kg of bombs
* (FF 12/1939) 200 Aichi at Nagoya (1942-1943) 280 Dai-Juichi Kaigun Kokusho at Hiro (1942-1943)	B5N2	IV  Nakajima NK1B Sakae 11  1000hp 970hp @ 3000m   V  Nakajima Sakae 21  1115hp**	378 km/h @ 3600m	1x7.7mm Type 92 (rear)	1x800kg torpedo or up to 800kg of bombs

Data: Francillon.  * 669 total B5N1, B5N1-K, B5N2 by Nakajima at Koizumi.  **same engine found on A6M2

 

Notes:

-- "Under the leadership of Katsuji Nakamura, the Nakajima design team adopted for their Type K a clean low-wing configuration fitted with a hydraulically-operated undercarriage.  The large wing could be folded upwards, and the hinge points were arranged so that the wingtips overlapped each other when folded above the cockpit.  When compared with the massive wing, the fuselage appeared small as overall length was kept to 10.3m to enable the aircraft to be accommodated on the standard deck elevators of the Navy carriers.  Other innovations incorporated ... included Fowler flaps and variable-pitch propeller.  Bearing the official designation B5N1, the prototype ... was completed [12/1936] and made its first flight [01/1937]." (Francillon, 412-413)

-- "...starting with the second prototype, the hydraulic wing-folding mechanism was replaced my a manual-folding system and the Fowler flaps were changed for more conventional units.  Further changes ... included replacement of the Hikari 2 by a Hikari 3 driving a constant-speed propeller and the installation of integral wing tanks with increased capacity.  In this form the aircraft won the competitive trials over the Mitsubishi B5M1 and went into production [11/1937 at Koizumi] as the Navy Type 97 Carrier Attack Bomber Model 1.  After an initial crew training period in Japan ... later redesignated Navy Type 97 Carrier Attack Bomber Model 11, went into service aboard Japanese carriers.  Meanwhile land-based units took the aircraft into combat operations on the Chinese mainland where, armed with bombs, it served as a tactical bomber in support of ground operations.  Operating under the cover of escorting [A5M's], the B5N1 was quite successful in spite of its lack of protection for crew and fuel tank and its modest defensive armament." (Francillon, 416)

-- "In level bombing sorties ... the observer was responsible for aiming the bombs.  Seated between the pilot and radio operator, he could see the target by opening a pair of small folding doors in the floor of the fuselage." (Francillon, 413)

-- "It exhibited several advanced features for its time, and its design was influenced in no small part by the Northrop 5A, an example of which had arrived in Japan in 1935 ... [B5N1 prototype] was a clean-looking 2/3-seat monoplane with mechanically folding wings, Fowler-type landing flaps and a fully retractable main undercarriage.  Its 770 hp Hikari 3 radial engine was installed beneath a neat NACA cowling ... saw combat service in the Sino-Japanese conflict ...  Production of the B5N1 was simplified by adopting manual instead of mechanical wing-folding, and by substituting slotted flaps for the Fowler type.  Late production aircraft (designated Model 12) were fitted with 985hp Sakae 11 engines.  (Munson, 104)

-- "The operational debut ... occurred in late 1938 when they were used as land based aircraft for close support of the Army in the Hankow region of China." (Hawkins, 7)

B5N2

-- "First flown [12/1939] ... entered production soon after as the Navy Type 97 Carrier Attack Bomber Model 12 ... externally identical to B5N1 but was powered by [Sakae 11 1000hp] ... smaller cowling ... small spinner over propeller hub ..." (Francillon, 414)

-- "The only other obvious airframe change was the fitting of an aerial post above the rear cockpit." (Hawkins, 7)

-- "At the time of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor [12/1941], the B5N's had completely replaced the earlier B5N1's and B4Y1's in first-line units of the Navy ... replaced [1944] by the Navy Carrier Attack Bomber Tenzan [B6N]." (Francillon, 414)

-- "A prototype appeared in [12/1939] of the B5N2 Model 23, a torpedo bomber version powered by a 1115hp Sakae 21 engine.  This was armed with two forward-firing guns and one or two guns in the rear cockpit; and it could carry an 18in torpedo or bombs under the fuselage ... entered JNAF service in 1940, and both variants were concerned in the attack on Pearl Harbor [12/1941].  Subsequently they were responsible for the destruction of several other major U.S. carriers during the early part of the war." (Munson, 104)

-- after relegation to second-line units, used for reconnaissance and anti-submarine roles ... "some B5N2's were fitted with Air-to-Surface Vessel Radar ... while other received Jikitanchiki magnetic airborne submarine detection devices." (Francillon, 414)

-- "The Hawaiian Operation, as the attack on Pearl Harbor is known to the Japanese, go underway on [11/22/1941] ... The 100 B5N2's, carrying torpedoes and armor piercing bombs, and the 40 D3A1 dive bombers were escorted by A6M2's ..." (Francillon)

-- "...encountered operationally as late as [06/1944], when a number were engaged in the Mariana Islands campaign ... More than 2,200 ... were completed, some of them by Aichi ..." (Munson, 104)

 

 

Nakajima B6N Tenzan (Heavenly Mountain) -- "Jill" (spring 1941+) --  Navy Carrier Attack Bomber

Production	Airframe/Varient	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
2 (spring 1941-1942)   133 (02/1943-07/1943)	14-Shi prototypes   B6N1 Model 11	VII  Nakajima NK7A Mamoru 11  1800hp 1750hp @ 1400m 1600hp @ 4900m	469 km/h @ 4800m	1x7.7mm Type 97 (rear)   1x7.7mm Type 97 (VT) and 1x7.7mm Type 97 (rear)	1x800kg torpedo or up to 800kg of bombs
1133 (06/1943-08/1945)	B6N2 Model 12     B6N2a Model 12a	VII  Mitsubishi MK4T Kasei 25  1850hp 1630hp @ 2100m 1540hp @ 5500m	482 km/h @ 4900m	1x7.7mm Type 97 (VT) and 1x7.7mm Type 97 (rear)   1x7.7mm Type 97 (VT) and 1x13mm Type 2 (rear)	1x800kg torpedo or up to 800kg of bombs
(2 modified B6N2)	B6N3	VII  Mitsubishi MK4T-C Kasei 25c  1850hp		1x7.7mm Type 97 (VT) and 1x13mm Type 2 (rear)	1x800kg torpedo or up to 800kg of bombs

Data: Francillon.  Of the total 1266 production aircraft built, 296 built at Koizumi, 970 built at Handa.

 

Notes:

-- "...designed by Kenichi Matsumura to a 14-Shi specification issued in 1939 by the Imperial Naval Staff ... The Navy insisted on powering the aircraft with a [Kasei], but Matsumara elected to use the new [Nakajima Mamoru 11  1870hp] as it had a lower fuel consumption and a better growth potential.  With this powerplant installed the first two prototypes were readied for flight trials in the spring of 1941." (Francillon, 429)

-- "Unfortunately, early flight test reports indicated that the design suffered from serious engineering defects.  The most urgent modification affected the vertical tail surfaces which had to be moved 2 deg 10 min to the left to correct directional stability problems from the powerful torque of the four-blade propeller ... [improved flying characteristics] ... but teething troubles, particularly with the Mamoru engine, slowed its development.  By [end of 1942] the Navy Experimental 14-Shi Carrier Attack Bomber was considered ready for carrier acceptance trials ... [several landing mishaps] ... In early 1943, with the hook mounting strengthened, the B6N1, although requiring the use of [RATO] for take-off at maximum gross weight, completed its carrier acceptance trials successfully." (Francillon, 430-431)

-- "After more than two years of testing [finally accepted for production] as the Navy Carrier Attack Bomber Tenzan (Heavenly Mountain) Model 11 ... [several modifications for production aircraft inluding] 1) replacement of single exhaust stack, which produced excessive glare at night, by a series of smaller exhaust units; 2) torpedo rack under the starboard fuselage side angled down 2 degrees, and provision for torpedo stabilizing tail plates to eliminate a tendency for the torpedo to bounce during low-altitude release; 3) strengthening of main landing gear attachment and of the tailplane; 4) addition of a flexible 7.7mm machine-gun firing through a ventral tunnel.  Attempts were also made to replace the unprotected semi-integral fuel tanks with protected bag-type tanks, but this modification resulted in a 30% reduction in tank capacity [therefore rejected].  In service the Tenzan performed satisfactorily, but its high landing speed and wing loading restricted its use to the larger carriers." (Francillon, 431)

-- Ministry of Munitions instructed Nakajima to terminate Mamor engine to enable concentration on Sakae and Homare; Nakajima forced to re-engine B6N. (Francillon, 431)

-- "... the [Mamori II engine] was prone to overheating and vibration ..." (Munson, 109)

-- "... carried dorsal and ventral machine-guns, the latter gun being extended into the airstream after the torpedo had been released, to discourage anti-aircraft fire from the ship just attacked." (Munson, 109)

-- fully-retractable tail-wheel [B6N1]. (Francillon, 432)

-- "First combat appearance of the Tenzan was [12/1943], when a group of B6N1's attacked a U.S. task force off the Marshall Islands, but most of the 1,268 Tenzans built at Nakajima's Handa and Koizumi factories were B6N2's [which made their] first operational appearance in the Marianas campaign [06/1944], and was encountered again in engagements in the Caroline and Solomon Islands groups and at Iwo Jima." (Munson, 109)

B6N2

-- Navy Carrier Attack Bomber Model 12 ... also undergone a number of minor internal changes and were fitted with a non-retractable tailwheel ... late production B6N2a Model 12a ... armed with [13mm Type 2 rear].  Two B6N2's (No. 751 and 752) were modified to [accept Kasei 25c 1850hp] and featuring strengthened undercarriage with larger wheels intended for operation from land bases with semi-prepared runways, as by then the Navy was practically without any aircraft carriers.  The production of the B6N3 had not yet started when the war ended." (Francillon, 432)

-- "... [B6N2 Model 12], powered by the more reliable Mitsubishi Kasei 25, which offered a lighter installed weight and more straightforward maintenance for only a slight reduction in output ... named Tenzan by the Japanese, after a Chinese mountain ..." (Munson, 109)

-- "In the B6N2 an additional forward-firing gun was provided in one wing.  To avoid fouling the bombs or torpedo, the oil cooler was offset to port on the lower portion of the engine cowling." (Munson, 109)

-- "Tenzans carrying ASV radar attacked Allied naval concentrations off Kyushu [03/1945], and from [04/1945-06/1945] the JNAF mounted a considerable torpedo and suicide attack campaign with Tenzans against Allied ships in the vicinity of Okinawa." (Munson, 109)

 

 

Aichi B7A Ryusei (Shooting Star) -- "Grace"   (05/1942+) -- Navy Carrier Attack-Bomber

Production	Airframe	Engine	Speed	Armament		Bombs
9 (05/1942-02/1944)	B7A1 prototypes	VI  Nakajima NK9B Homare 11 1800hp* 1440hp @ 1800m 1560hp @ 6400m
80 (05/1944-07/1945) 25 (04/1944-08/1945)	B7A2 Ryusei	VI  Nakajima NK9C Homare 12 2000hp 1670hp @ 2400m 1560hp @ 6550m	567 km/h @ 6550m	VII  2x20mm Type 99 Model 2 (W)	1x7.92 Type 1 rear (early) or 1x13mm Type 2 rear (late)	up to 800kg
(1 adapted B7A2)		VII  Nakajima NK9H-S Homare 23 2000hp** 1570hp @ 6850m
Projected	B7A3 Ryusei Kai	VIII Mitsubishi MK9A ([Ha 43] 11) 2200hp*** 2070hp @ 1000m 1930hp @ 5000m

Data: Francillon      * same engine used in N1K1-J    **same engine used in N1K4-J  ***same engine used in Mitsubishi A7M2        B7A2 climb: 6:55 to 4000m; ceiling 11250m

 

Notes:

-- "...to supplement and eventually replace both the Nakajima B6N torpedo-bomber and the Yokosuka D4Y dive-bomber." (Francillon, 288)

-- "...designed by Norio Ozaki, Morishige Mori and Yasushiro Ozawa to meet a specification which called for a high-performance carrier-borne torpedo-bomber, or 'attack-bomber', with the maneuverability of a fighter.  A mid-wing configuration was adopted to provide clearance for a ventral bomb-bay and a large air-screw [4-blade].  The wings had therefore to be of inverted gull-wing shape, since otherwise the legs of the retractable undercarriage would have been too long.  The almost untried [18-cylinder Homare], on which the naval authorities insisted, proved troublesome, but eventually its imperfections were overcome ... Too large to be accommodated in fleet carriers of the Akagi or the Shokaku class, they were intended for a new generation of carriers capable of handling aircraft whose length exceeded the limit of 11m previously imposed ... those ready for service by the end of the war were allotted to land-based units." (Collier, 57)

-- "The wings were also fitted with drooping ailerons, which could be deflected 10° to serve as auxiliary flaps, and dive brakes were mounted on the undersurface ahead of the flaps between the fuselage and ailerons.  For carrier stowage the wings folded hydraulically upwards outboard of the flaps ...first prototype completed [05/1942].  As the aircraft was the first to be powered by the still experimental [Homare 11 1800hp], the flight trial program was constantly interrupted by engine teething troubles, but when the Homare 11 performed smoothly the B7A1 demonstrated sparkling performance and excellent handling characteristics ... In [04/1944] an improved engine version, [Homare 12 1825hp], became available and ... finally placed in production as the Navy Carrier Attack Bomber Ryusei." (Francillon, 289-290)

-- "Production ... finally brought to a standstill when the Funakata plant was destroyed [05/1945 earthquake] ... however, this no longer affected the outcome of the war because the Japanese Navy had lost their carrier fleet and the small number of B7A2's built saw limited service from land bases with the Yokosuka and 752nd Kokutais." (Francillon, 290)

-- Francillon confirms that a B7A2 was experimentally fitted with [Homare 23 2000hp], but also claims that the projected B7A3 Ryusei Kai was to use [Mitsubishi MK9A 2200hp].  He also claims that a smaller/faster successor to the B7A called Mokusei (Jupiter) was in the early design phase at war end [no other details given] (Francillon, 290-291).

-- further details here

 

 

 

---

 

 

Nakajima C6N Saiun (Painted Cloud) -- "Myrt"  (05/1943+)

Production	Airframe/Variant	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
*	17-Shi prototype	VI  Nakajima NK9B Homare 11  1820hp 1600hp @ 2000m 1500hp @ 6500m
*	C6N1   C6N1-S	VII  Nakajima NK9H Homare 21  1990hp 1870hp @ 2000m 1700hp @ 6500m	609 km/h @ 6100m	1x7.92mm Type 2 (rear)   2x20mm Type 99 (F oblique)
*	C6N2	Nakajima NK9K-L Homare 24  1980hp *** 1780hp @ 9000m		1x7.92mm Type 2 (rear)   2x20mm Type 99 (F oblique)
	C6N3 Saiun-Kai	Hitachi 92

Data: Francillon, Munson.  *463 total at Koizumi and Handa (03/1943-08/1945).   *** same engine planned for Aichi S1A

 

Notes:

-- "[Designed by] Eng Yasuo Fukuda [also worked on B4N1] and Yoshizo Yamamoto ... fuselage diameter kept to minimum ... [oil cooler external and offset to port] ... vertical tail surfaces were canted forward [so as to fit carrier deck elevators] ... [laminar flow wing of small area] ... four protected and two unprotected integral [wing] fuel tanks ... combination of Fowler and split flaps were fitted to the wing trailing edge, and leading-edge slats were incorporated." (Francillon, 434-435)

-- "Originally, Fukuda contemplated the use of two 1,000 hp radial engines mounted in tandem, but a single, small-diameter Homare engine, which promised to develop around 2,000 hp, was chosen instead.  To shorten ... the development period, no less than 23 prototypes were ordered ... many of these completed by the end of 1943.  Several of the prototypes were assigned to active units as part of the test program, and it was they that made the aircraft's operational debut ... first encountered [06/1944], when a number of these ... made a reconnaissance of the U.S. task force assembling for the attack on the Marianas Islands." (Munson, 112)

C6N1

-- D4Y2-C reconnaissance --> Nakajima C6N1 (FF 05/1943)

-- "The first major operation in which the C6N1 took part was the battle of the Marianas.  From then on, taking advantage of their range of over 3,000 miles ... effectively shadowed the U.S. Fleet, for their speed, almost equal to that of the Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat, rendered them almost immune from interception." (Francillon, 436)

-- The last confirmed aerial casualty of the war ... C6N1 shot down at 0540 on 08/15/1945 by LCDR Reidy. (Francillon, 439)

C6N1-B Model 21

-- "...projected carrier-borne attack bomber retaining the Homare 21 engine of the reconnaissance version but featuring provision for a torpedo mounted externally, offset to starboard, under the fuselage.  Forward-firing armament was to be installed, but the loss of most Japanese carriers eliminated the need for such an aircraft ..." (Francillon, 436)

-- "The C6N1-B was a 3-seat torpedo bomber conversion." (Munson, 113)

C6N1-S

-- "...the sudden need for night fighters to defend the Japanese homeland against B-29 attacks led to the modification of the Saiun to meet this role ... reduced crew of two, and a pair of 20mm Type 99 cannon mounted obliquely in the fuselage ... original performance was retained.  As the effectiveness of the Saiun was impaired by the lack of airborne radar equipment, only a few Saiuns were converted to C6N1-S ... but they were the fastest night fighters available for the defense of the Japanese homeland." (Francillon, 436-437)

C6N2 and other plans

-- "With a view to improving the altitude performance ... Nakajima experimentally fitted a turbosupercharged NK9K-L Homare 24 in a prototype designated C6N2.  Flight testing ... was still underway when the war ended.  Plans ... to manufacture, as the C6N3 Saiun KAI 1, a night fighter version ... powered by the turbosupercharged Homare 24 ... not realized.  Three other advanced versions ... C6N4 Saiun KAI 2 [Mitsubishi MK9A] ... C6N5 Saiun KAI 3 ... C6N6 Saiun KAI 4 [all wood] ... were still on the drawing board when the war ended." (Francillon, 437)

-- "The final development, designated C6N3 Saiun-Kai, was to have been powered by a Hitachi 92 engine, but this had only reached the project stage when the war ended." (Munson, 113)

-- [sidenote:  the "Hitachi 92 engine" referred to by Munson may be the same as the Hitachi Ha-51 under development at war end mentioned in U.S. Bombing Survey Report]

 

 

Nakajima G8N Renzan (Mountain Range)  (10/1944)

Production	Airframe/Variant	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs
4 prototypes (10/1944-06/1945; FF 10/1944))	G8N1 prototypes	4x Nakajima NK9K-L Homare 24 + Hitachi 92 turbosuperchargers  2000hp		stuff	4x250kg or 2x2000kg or Ohka 43
proposed considered	G8N2 G8N3 Renzan-Kai Model 23 (all-steel)	4x Mitsubishi Mk9A  2200hp (not specified)

Data: Francillon.

 

Notes:

-- cancelled at Koizumi plant 06/1945 to focus on Nakajima Kikka.

-- design by Kenichi Matsumara (previous work on LB-2 (1936), Ki-19 (08/1937), B6N (spring 1941)

 

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 23 January 2016 - 03:50 PM.