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[spoiler] what the Japanese tech tree could look like

Japan Mitsubishi Aichi Kawanishi Kyushu Kawasaki Nakajima Tachikawa Mansyu Rikugun

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Demon93IT #101 Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:24 AM

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View PostCommander_Rasseru, on 27 March 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

Could the Fuji T-1, F-86 Sabre, Lockheed F-104 Starfighter and Lockheed T-33A be added to the list for Premium or/and Omitted list? Or the could fit into a slot for Jet Aircraft that is needed and might need buff up to be equal match to other nations? During my research... I couldn't find any more military aircraft made after the war that match with the current game's time frame. 


The Fuji T-1 was very lightly armed, the F-104 it's way outside the limits set. As the T-33 is concerned i don't know, technically it could be added although it wasn't designed to fight



Commander_Rasseru #102 Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:07 AM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 27 March 2014 - 01:24 AM, said:


The Fuji T-1 was very lightly armed, the F-104 it's way outside the limits set. As the T-33 is concerned i don't know, technically it could be added although it wasn't designed to fight

The T-33 could be a P-80 Shooting Star, since they are variants.



J311yfish #103 Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:49 PM

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Thank you for looking into post-WW2 jets.  I have put them into a timeline to show their relationship to the current tier X's:

 

Timeline precedent established by game:

 

Timeline for post-WW2 Japanese jets and related developments:

 

 

Given the IL-40P and Gloster Javelin programs active in 1956, it seems to me that the best case could be made for the F-86F built by Mitsubishi under license in 1956 after the Japan Air Self-Defense Force was formed.  

 

However, if this is done for Japan then a similar case could be made for Germany with the F-84F acquired in January 1956 after the Luftwaffe was reformed; yet Germany already has three WW2-era jet lines in game extending to Tier X, some of them from blueprints with zero production.  Why then should Japan not get a similar treatment, given there is no shortage of native developments?

 


 

North American F-86F  Kyokuko (Sunbeam)  「旭光」
Production Airframe Engine Speed Armament Bombs
28+180 * F-86F-40 General Electric J47-GE-27 1118 km/h @ _____ *** 6x12.7mm Browning M3 ** 2x454kg

* 28 built by North American; 180 assembled by Mitsubishi

** For reference, the Supermarine Swift in game has a max speed of 1127 km/h at best altitude and the F-86A in game has the same armament

 

Notes:

-- Used by 29 countries and United Nations

-- Also used for Japan's aerobatic team "Blue Impulse" (like USN Blue Angels, USAF Thunderbirds)

-- Some were given back to the U.S.

-- Pictures here and here.

-- Added to omitted list:

  • Lockheed T-33A trainer (1956)
  • Fuji T-1 trainer (1958)
  • North American F-86D Sabre (1958)
  • Lockheed F-104 Starfighter (1962)

 


Edited by J311yfish, 21 June 2014 - 02:08 PM.

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J311yfish #104 Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

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I have been thinking about how to fill the lower tiers on the IJN side leading up to the N1K1-J and the J1N1.  These are the possibilities:

 

Option 0:   Nothing

-- leave it blank because the A6M is legendary and eclipses everything else in production

 

Option 1:  Dive Bombers

-- You would be giving up the firepower/speed/maneuverability of the A5M or A6M in order to have a tail-gunner, greater payload, and dive brakes.

-- Examples:  Aichi D1AAichi D3A, Yokosuka D4Y, Aichi B7A

-- barriers to implementation:  

  • maps built with dive bombing in mind
  • ability to bind 2 separate bomb release buttons

 

Option 2:  Torpedo Bombers

-- As with dive bombers above, you would be giving up the firepower/speed/maneuverability of the A5M or A6M in order to have a tail-gunner.

-- Examples:  Mitsubishi B5M, Nakajima B5N, Nakajima B6NAichi B7A

 

Option 3:  Floatplanes

-- As with dive bombers above, you would be giving up the speed/maneuverability of the A5M or A6M in order to have a tail-gunner (and/or heavier armament for the tier)

-- floatplane lineage could contribute directly to the development of the N1K1-J

-- Examples:  Nakajima E8N, Mitsubishi F1M, Nakajima A6M2-N, Kawanishi N1K1

-- barriers to implementation:

 

Option 4:  Flying Boats

-- You would be giving up extreme speed/maneuverability in order to have a tail gunner or multiple gunners, and would be heavily armored, presumably to deliver a bomb payload in a manner similar to ground attack aircraft currently in game, taking the "sky whale" concept to a whole new level

-- Examples:  Yokosuka H5Y, Kawanishi H3KKawanishi H6KKawanishi H8K

 

Option 5:  Recon / Patrol / Observation aircraft

-- You would be giving up firepower and armor for speed.

-- recon aircraft could contribute directly to the development of the J1N1

-- Examples:  Mitsubishi C5M, Nakajima C6N, Kyushu Q1W

 

Option 6:  Other fighter prototypes/projects

-- parallel fighters developed as companies competed with each other (Ex. Ki-33)

-- canceled fighter projects

-- modified imports, etc.

 

Option 7:  Some combination of the above

-- such as the "night fighter" variations on any of the above

-- this could contribute directly to the development of the J1N1 dedicated night fighter.

 

 

I recognize that most of the aircraft here are going heavily against precedent.  My goal here is to get a good look at everything to see how it might fit in.  It is really just a sudoku exercise at this point, but there are still some reasonable (or obvious) conclusions to be derived.  For instance, a dedicated dive bomber or floatplane progression would probably not arrive before the IJA fighters because there are barriers to implementation.  Flying boats are comparable to low-altitude flying fortresses and probably wouldn't even be considered until then if ever.  Perhaps another avenue for implementing them would be through alternate battle modes that use AI, but I don't want to speculate about that.  Anyway, just to be thorough, here is an interpretation of dive bombers and floatplane progression based on information derived from Francillon and Mikesh.

 

 

Dive bombers and floatplanes included:

 

 


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Raindrops #105 Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:53 PM

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I believe that dive and torpedo bombers would be more than capable of performing a GA role, so long as they are balanced according to their speed and payload. The Japanese very much show the type's weakness in armament, but if they could perform  acceptably if they could fill the role of quick-strike aircraft, able to rush in and claim early superiority before enemy fighters can harass them.

Recon aircraft as well, due to the weak (if any) armament, would need to be balanced to have a speed/altitude advantage just to stay alive, much less be effective in a fight.

 

As for flying boats... No. They are very large, often with four engines, and (correct me if I'm wrong) don't have hard-mounted forward firepower. As such, they fit in with bombers such as the B-17 and JU-188.

 

I would agree that floatplanes are the most ideal, as they were often conversions of effective fighter aircraft and carried comparable armaments. I would place torpedo and dive bombers next, followed by the few viable recon planes. and leave the boats strait out.


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J311yfish #106 Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:10 PM

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Update:

-- Added some detailed notes about dive bombers and floatplanes above.

-- Japanese aircraft used by the Chinese after September 1945 (below).

 

  • Nakajima Ki-43 Type 1 Hayabusa
  • Kawasaki Ki-61 Type 3 Hien
  • Nakajima Ki-44 Type 2 Shoki
  • Nakajima Ki-84 type 4 Hayate
  • Mitsubishi Ki-51 Type 99 ground-attack
  • Kawasaki Ki-48 twin-engine light bomber

 

Source: Communist Chinese Air Power, by Richard M. Bueschel

 

 

A Chinese tech tree is being worked on over here.

 

 


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J311yfish #107 Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:30 PM

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This post is reserved for a detailed account of premium aircraft already in-game.

 

Tier II Premium

 

Tier III Premium

 

Tier V Premium

 

Tier VI Premium

 

Tier VII Premium

 

Tier VIII Premium

 

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 09 November 2016 - 10:08 PM.

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_Down_Range #108 Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:54 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 11 March 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

 

Kogiken series:

 

Mitsubishi-Payen Pa.400:

 

A7M3:

 

 

I will look closer at the other aircraft in your list.  If you can recommend sources other than Francillon or Dyer I would be glad to check them out.

 

When I began this project I had to set several rules for myself in order to have a clear direction.  One of the rules was that I was going to give preference to high-production aircraft (those that were actually in the war); yet I have discovered that the tech trees of other countries do not necessarily adhere to that rule.  The Russian attack line for example has several IL's that never had more than 10 produced, yet they are there presumably to complete the line and offer an alternate path of progression.  Another example is the Bf 109 Z (only one built, but never flown).  I could certainly use the that precedent (or the J7W3) to devise any tree I want in the name of fun, but then it becomes deeply subjective and not very useful for making predictions.  

 

I don't know how to account for the "fun factor" but I imagine it would involve identifying different themes and trying to work them into the tree, such as:

-- a fighter line that focuses on speed and rate of climb rather than maneuverability

-- a discernible ground attack line

-- a discernible heavy-fighter line or "night fighter" concept if maps are made to be dark ***

-- a dive bomber line if it becomes relevant

 

Anyway, I'll leave the "fun factor" to developers because it is their business and I think they've done a great job so far.  I'm kind of hooked if you haven't noticed.  If nothing else comes of this tech tree adventure then it has certainly been fun just learning about all of the different aircraft.

 

 

 

 

 


Seeing that WoT and WoWP are run by the same folks and share a common general plan for the games ( allowing vehicles in game that did not get off paper or out of prototype )  to dismiss an aircraft because it did not fit into the realm of deployed, functioning planes is incorrect as far as this game goes. The JPE-100 in WoT is a prime example of that.



J311yfish #109 Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:02 AM

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Update 1.4 Public Test patch notes

 New Premium and gift planes for developers only:

 

De Havilland 98 Mosquito FB 26 - China Tier VI Premium heavy fighter
CKB I-7 - Soviet, Tier II gift fighter
Kawasaki Ki-5 - Japan, Tier II gift fighter
Hawker Hurricane IID - Great Britain, Tier V gift ground attack plane


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J311yfish #110 Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:01 PM

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This post reserved for detailed comparison of climb rates

 

Tier I and II

 

Tier II and III

 

Tier IV, V, VI

 

Tier VII, VIII, IX, X

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 16 January 2016 - 01:15 PM.

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J311yfish #111 Posted 18 June 2014 - 12:25 PM

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The current tree is fine for making predictions, but there is room for improvement.  I am working on an improved tree to resolve these things:

 

1.  Organization by manufacturer (Mitsubishi, Nakajima, Kawasaki), not Army/Navy by production values.  

-- Army/Navy distinction made sense in the beginning to reduce chaos, but if implemented as such it would be the only tree to be organized that way

-- this should better fit the WG tech tree model and should mean more aircraft (including prototypes) in the long run.

 

2.  Tier placement determined by engine takeoff horsepower, not speeds.

-- speeds are superficial indicators that are highly variable by altitude and aerodynamic refinement

-- Kawasaki line engine tier can be accurately determined by the Ki-88 now in game, and the Daimler-Benz engines of the German tree

-- Nakajima line engine tier can be accurately determined by the Ki-43 expected to be in game soon, then compared sideways to Kawasaki

-- this should better fit the WG Tech tree model and should mean more precise placement


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pyantoryng #112 Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:11 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 18 June 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

The current tree is fine for making predictions, but there is room for improvement.  I am working on an improved tree to resolve these things:

 

1.  Organization by manufacturer (Mitsubishi, Nakajima, Kawasaki), not Army/Navy by production values.  

-- Army/Navy distinction made sense in the beginning to reduce chaos, but if implemented as such it would be the only tree to be organized that way

 

In a sense, the American fighter lines are organized by Army/Navy, as in the Grumman/Vought line are carrier-based planes, whereas the Curtiss/North American line are land-based planes (but for gameplay purposes the FJ-1 was designated normal fighter even in the days when CBF designation existed).



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J311yfish #113 Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:50 PM

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Yes; that was the main reason for organizing along Army/Navy lines to begin with, along with Francillon's organization, but I am finding that if I follow the French model (that has no choice but to ignore the distinction) then organization by manufacturer (Demon93's method) with minor developments to fill the gaps, it starts to look really good.  I think you'll see what I mean ... here is a rough overview:

 

                                                                                                         FIGHTERS

  "Mitsubishi"   "Nakajima"   "Kawasaki"
I     Type 91 (05/1928)    
II A4N (1934)   Ki-11 (04/1935)   Ki-10 (03/1935)
III A5M (02/1935)   Ki-27 (10/1936)   Ki-28 (~10/1936)
IV A6M1 (04/1939)   Ki-43 (01/1939)   Yokosuka D4Y1 (12/1940)
V A6M2 (12/1939) ------------>   Ki-43-III (05/1944+) or Ki-44-I   Ki-60 / Ki-61-I (03/1941) / (12/1941)
VI A6M5 (1943+)    J2M (03/1942) Ki-44-I/II (08/1940) (08/1942)   Ki-61-II / Ki-100 (12/1941) / (02/1945)
VII A7M (05/1944)   N1K1/2-J (05/1942) (12/1943) Ki-84 (04/1943)   Ki-119 (~09/1945)
VIII Kyushu J7W1 (08/1945) <-- J4M (1943+) Ki-87 (04/1945) --------------> Kitsuka (08/1945) Ki-64 (12/1943)
IX Kyushu J7W2 J8M (1945) Ki-201 (1945) <----------------   Yokosuka R2Y2 (1945)
X Kyushu J7W3                      Rikugun Ki-202 (1945)   Variable 2

 

Organized this way it starts to look more like the playable trees of other countries, rather than "fanning out" at VII/VIII.  It also comes close to maintaining consistent themes for each line:

 

Themes

Mitsubishi/Kyushu -- maneuverability, with J2M and J4M emphasis on speed and climb, with primarily Mitsubishi air-cooled engines; primary designer Jiro Horikoshi of Mitsubishi

Nakajima -- maneuverability up to Ki-43, then emphasis on speed, climb, survivability, with primarily Nakajima air-cooled engines; primary designer Yasushi Koyama of Nakajima

Kawasaki/Yokosuka -- German water-cooled engines produced by Kawasaki and Aichi until Ki-61-II; fighter bomber trend continued by Yokosuka; primary designer Takeo Doi of Kawasaki (influenced by Richard Vogt).

 


 

Heavy fighters are their own challenge, but by eliminating Army/Navy distinction it is possible to have them together off to the right of Kawasaki (similar in manner to the German tree), and allows a distinction to be made between those that favor large calibers (Heavy I), and those that favor a lighter/faster approach (Heavy II), in order to have everything included:

 

                                        HEAVY FIGHTERS

  Heavy I (heavier) Heavy II (lighter/faster)
I    
II Aichi D1A (1934+) Ki-30 (02/1937) or Ki-32 (03/1937)
III Aichi D3A (12/1937+) Ki-51 (06/1939)
IV Ki-45 (~01/1939)         37mm J1N1 (05/1941)
V Ki-96 (08/1943)           37mm Ki-46-I/II (11/1939) / (03/1941)
VI Ki-102 (03/1944)         37mm/57mm Ki-46-III/IV (12/1942) (1943-1944)
VII Ki-109 (08/1944) *       75mm J5N1 (07/1944)
VIII Rikugun Ki-93 (1945)  57mm/75mm Ki-83 (11/1944)
IX    
X    

*or Aichi S1A (1945)

 

In general, those in the Heavy I category have greater armor and armament at the expense of speed; primary designer Takeo Doi of Kawasaki.

In general, those in the Heavy II category are ~30-50 km/h faster at the expense of armor and armament; primary designer Tomio Kubo of Mitsubishi.

 

For engine/armament details see page 5 and use Control + F to navigate quickly, or use links in the above table and scroll up/down.

 

This method would also reduce the list of sidelined/alternate/premium/gift planes considerably:

 

Other thoughts on why this approach makes sense:

 

 

Anyway, that's the proof of concept for a full-saturation model and might be closer to what eventually takes shape.


Edited by J311yfish, 18 August 2014 - 01:48 AM.

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J311yfish #114 Posted 21 June 2014 - 01:04 AM

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Big update

-- based on Demon93's model and lessons learned from the French tree, the Japanese tree is now organized by manufacturer and horsepower.

-- all heavy fighters are now included with distinction between those that favor speed (such as Ki-83) and those that favor armament (such as Ki-93).

-- all details on page 5 have been cleaned up and reorganized with spoiler tags and color code for easier navigation.


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Youimcolo #115 Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:38 AM

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Sorry, I just had to point out. The Japanese characters for the F-86-J's nickname, Kyokkou are mistaken. the correct characters are「旭光」.

 

In addition, the T-1 training craft was designed not only to hold one 12.7mm heavy machine gun for shooting practice, and had the capacity to mount either Sidewinder AAMs, bombs, or gunpods on the wings. though as WG seems adamant on not implementing missiles, the armament on the T-1 would be limited to the guns and 2 750kg bombs.


Also, why does everyone reffer to the Kikka as "Kitsuka"? The 'tsu' in「きっか」is pronounced as a sharp sound after the 'Ki', and not as its own word.



J311yfish #116 Posted 21 June 2014 - 02:07 PM

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View PostYouimcolo, on 21 June 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Sorry, I just had to point out. The Japanese characters for the F-86-J's nickname, Kyokkou are mistaken. the correct characters are「旭光」.

 

Thank you, will update!

 

View PostYouimcolo, on 21 June 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Also, why does everyone refer to the Kikka as "Kitsuka"? The 'tsu' in「きっか」is pronounced as a sharp sound after the 'Ki', and not as its own word.

 

Here is what Edwin Dyer says about the Kikka/Kitsuka naming convention -- quote.  

 

He also claims the translation to be not just "Orange Blossom" but rather "Wild Orange Blossom."

 

He makes a similar case for the Mitsubishi J8M -- quote.

 

Do you agree with his approach?  It is beyond my understanding, but I really hope to learn Japanese someday.


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J311yfish #117 Posted 22 June 2014 - 03:51 PM

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This post is to explore Kikka/Kitsuka and Ki-201 in detail relative to the Me262, J7W2, and Ki-202 in order to better understand how they might be implemented.

 

DIMENSIONS

 

ARMAMENT

 

MANEUVERABILITY

 

SPEED / CLIMB

 


Edited by J311yfish, 22 June 2014 - 06:03 PM.

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J311yfish #118 Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:12 PM

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View Postgunlion, on 23 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

Hey everyone! We apologize for the delay in getting these answers to you; we've taken the top questions from April and May and combined them into one thread: 

 

Question: Are there any plans to add the Beta planes (P-39, P-51 JP, Me 609, J4M1, Me 109 TL, etc.) and nose art that were removed prior to release? Will we eventually see them in upcoming patches?

Answer: Some of them have already been added into the game (like the P-39 in 1.4.0, a USSR LVL6 Premium); some of them will be added in the near future (for example, in 1.6.0); and some of them a little bit later. The same thing with the nose art as well.


...

 

Q: What are the plans for future GA lines? Or could we get a teaser for the German GAs?

A: There are planes for future GA lines, but we are not ready to tease the details just yet. Sorry! 

 

Q: 75mm guns were mounted or planned for on the B-25G, A-26, Ki-93 and Hs-129, among others. Are there caliber limits placed in WoWP - if so, how large can a cannon be - if not, can these planes be expected to be seen?

A: We have no technical limits for caliber of guns! In reality, 75mm guns were powerful and specialized anti-tank guns. Aircraft armed with such a caliber had very little maneuverability and were not suitable for air combat. The rate of fire of these primary weapons were only what was necessary to take out tanks. We have not introduced these guns as planes equipped with them would be almost defenseless against fighters, and with current ground targets it is better to fight with rapid-fire guns. But with progressive ground-target types, such calibers might possibly be needed--but probably not soon.

 

 

 ^ That essentially means Nakajima J5N1 and/or Aichi S1A for Tier VII, and if Ki-93 is to appear anytime soon it will be the 57mm version.


Edited by J311yfish, 23 June 2014 - 09:25 PM.

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rdizz81 #119 Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:16 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 24 February 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Designers / Chronology / Details

 

Premiums, alternates, gift planes (tiers approx):

 

Sources:

 

Acknowledgements:

 

Older versions:

Love this.. Make it happen please. 


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J311yfish #120 Posted 19 July 2014 - 10:19 PM

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This post is reserved for a detailed examination of the "B" series of IJN aircraft.  

This is necessary in part to identify the exact origin of the Nakajima Kikka.

 

 

Kusho B3Y1 (1933) -- Navy Type 92 Carrier Attack Bomber

 

Kusho B4Y1 -- "Jean"  (late 1935) -- Navy Type 96 Carrier Attack Bomber

 

Mitsubishi B5M -- "Mabel"  (1937) -- Navy Type 97 Carrier Attack Bomber Model 2

 

Nakajima B5N  -- "Kate"  (01/1937, 12/1939) -- Navy Type 97 Carrier Bomber

 

Nakajima B6N Tenzan (Heavenly Mountain) -- "Jill" (spring 1941+) --  Navy Carrier Attack Bomber

 

Aichi B7A Ryusei (Shooting Star) -- "Grace"   (05/1942+) -- Navy Carrier Attack-Bomber

 

 


 

 

Nakajima C6N Saiun (Painted Cloud) -- "Myrt"  (05/1943+)

 

Nakajima G8N Renzan (Mountain Range)  (10/1944)

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 23 January 2016 - 03:50 PM.

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Also tagged with Japan, Mitsubishi, Aichi, Kawanishi, Kyushu, Kawasaki, Nakajima, Tachikawa, Mansyu, Rikugun

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