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Make all bullets the same range


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xMADDMANNx #61 Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:35 PM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 24 February 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

There's a reason why the 110s, 410s and so on were used as night fighters: during daylight they got their tails kicked badly by light fighters. Are they kicked ingame? Well if they use their 30 seconds of boost they can climb almost as fast as the Me 163.

 

Now to the Zero: several pilots died because the Zero BnZed them. This was fixed by the arrival of the F6F which was equal in climbing ability. Sure the Zero is not as fast but saying that it's a pure TnB is wrong. BTW BnZ tactic and HF class stop to exist

You can TnB with any plane you can BnZ with any plane...the issue is what plane does what tactic the best..TNB with  a 109Z hmm wont work very well.. but you can still try it..

BnZ with a A6m2 hmm  wont work well but.. you can still try it..

you have to know what your enemy is able to do then you can make your call TnB or BnZ


Edited by xMADDMANNx, 24 February 2014 - 10:51 PM.


Demon93IT #62 Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:02 PM

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View PostxMADDMANNx, on 24 February 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

You can TnB with any plane you can BnZ with any plane...the issue is what plane does what tactic the best..TNB with  a 109Z hmm wont work very well.. but you can still try it..

BnZ with a A6m2 hmm  wont work well but.. you can still try it..


True, all depends on the aircraft.

 

Well it doesn't work well simply because ingame the Zero can't climb. I guess they don't want to implement a more realistic model of the plane otherwise it would be the supreme fighter at tier V for 1 vs 1 engagements.



eggplant84 #63 Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:55 AM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 24 February 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Eggplant84 +1 to you sir. It only took 3 pages for someone to explain why it would be bad to have all the ranges the same.

Some things I still disagree with though.

This game is geared in favor of Boom and Zoom planes. I play BnZ as much as I play turn fighters and it is very apparent that BnZ has too much of an advantage of over turn fighters.

As for how you were saying planes would have to change their styles a little, well that's part of balancing the game.

Being that the planes with the best statistics are BnZ planes (262, me410, 110c, and the strongest one of all, the BF110B)it would seem they need a nerf , this is the best way I can think of without actually doing anything to the planes themselves.

As far as turn fighters being nerfed if the ranges were all the same , in that you are wrong, they would actually be buffed.

Instead of only hitting with their higher caliber guns at 700m , they would hit with all guns on, let's say a BnZ plane that is flying away from them.

 

I see you and a few other people also think I ment for the ranges to get shorter.

When I say all ranges should be the same , I mean they should be set to the maximum , which is around 1200 meters I believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I do appreciate your candor good sir. I don't exactly know if it will be a nerf to low altitude fighters, at least directly, but it would be dependent on the range of the guns, themselves.

 

Too short, BnZ have to come down too close, and TnB's turn and watch the BnZ speed away horizontally maintaining as much energy as possible without getting an effective shot to speak of.

Now too far, and well this would not only be reversed in both situations but be awkward to say the least.

 

I will agree with you on one thing very dear to my heart, BnZ is incredibly dominant at this moment, and with the way aircraft battles work, it kinda should be. However, TnB fighters and aircraft I feel are way too far penalized at this moment.

 

I call your attention to the Yak lines. One thing I notice about these lines is their altitude performance indicators have a maximum, but they extend down to the deck in their optimum low altitudes.

Now compare this with the supposed, low altitude domination fighter, from the Jappo line, and you have one of my biggest dislikes in the game. Why WG has to give the Jappos such inferior performance and the damn smallest range of optimum altitude in the game is beyond me.

One thing both these lines share is their climbing in these optimum or supposed optimum altitude ranges. It is true that the Jappos in this game do boast quite a good climbing rate. However, their climbing rate, is hardly useful when their energy turns to complete garbage at any upward angling of the plane, within, or outside of their optimum altitudes.

 

In my Mosquito for example, it isn't the most optimum BnZ plane on paper, but in reality it is quite terrifying. I target the immediate high altitude threats first, P51's, 410's etc. Now we come to the BnZ. Once the high altitude fighters are eliminated, 2500m becomes a somewhat impenetrable defensive area to be in.

Now some player in a Jappo or Yak/La variant fighter is still holding their own down below at about 1000-1500m or so with my teammates or winning out right. So I start in using the BnZ. Now I do sacrifice some altitude, but am careful to maintain about 700-1000m between me and the low altitude fighters.

At this point if I miss, and they survive, I am most likely climbing already out of their range. They have two choices, follow, which is what I am hoping for, or go even lower. Normally, lower would be better for them...Except...

Even if they do go lower, say down to 500m all I have to do is cruise a bit lower, maybe 1700-2000m and maintain my height buffer of 700-1000m while attacking.

Even in their optimum altitude range, if they attempt to close this gap, they will have to sacrifice a horrible amount of energy, and boost, to very little effect. While I will be boosting away as they try to do so, the fact is that with high altitude heavies/fighters, their boost times and engine power are such that the low altitudes will have very little chance to be effective before reaching stall speeds or coming very close to it.

 

In my opinion, in order to properly balance these  TnB planes, with the BnZ types we have now, their performance at low altitude, within their optimum altitude had to be adjusted accordingly. Right now, following a high altitude fighter up to fight in their territory is a scary thing for any plane. While BnZ has a niche, that is, and should be filled, they should be just as scared of low altitude TnB fighters when coming town to one shot/instagib them, which any experienced BnZ'er here knows is not the case. Especially those aware of energy and height conservation. In a nut shell, TnB should be a bit harder/risky than BnZ, but more rewarding. Now this improved performance would further justify having longer reaching guns on BnZ aircraft to keep them away from the low altitude planes. That said, I do agree completely with Croyd, BnZ does carry far too much of an impact on the individual game as we speak.



WulfNose #64 Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:13 PM

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_Lindy_ #65 Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:19 PM

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There is so much wrong with making the effective range of all rounds the same I dont even know where to begin. One thing I would llike to see implemented to see how it works would be to reduce the effective range of all rounds (not make the same, but reduce)

datum perficiemus munus

 

 


comealong1 #66 Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:38 PM

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    HEY, I did not read all here, but getting nuts......Large cal. weapons better start slowing aircraft down when firing then too!!!...Many 30mm guns firing will slow a plane!.....Floating cross hair is screwy too....Cross hairs are fixed to a plane!....Sure don't turn a gun sight on a plane as you shoot, the plane turns!

 

 

   To try to change the reality of big gun, little gun, is crazy to begin with I think!

 

 

   Ca1



Dirizon #67 Posted 26 February 2014 - 08:49 PM

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View Postcmmdrsigma1, on 24 February 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

 

2) Hydrostatic shock is caused by the colapse of an unusually large temporary cavity created by a high-velocity projectile moving through flesh, hence the saying "you use a pistol to fight your way to a (usually rifle, some say shotgun, depends on your long gun of choice)". The only pistol rounds I would normally expect to see hydrostatic shock from would be stuff like .357 SIG, 7.62x25 Tokarev, and 5.7x28mm. Hollowpoints only increase the "energy dump" ability of a round by causing it to expand and cause a larger permanent cavity. The shock from the sudden formation of the permanent cavity may cause a significant temporary cavity to occur, but this depends on grain weight, velocity, permanent cavity size, etc. Non-expanding, or ball ammo, is THE ONY kind of anti-personel ammo allowed under the Hauge Convention of 1899, and NATO militaries do not use expanding ammo. Police primarally use expanding ammo because they don't need to worry about presonal armor as much, and are more likely to be shooting at somebody hopped up on drugs; this is the reason most citizens who use/carry firearms for defense use hollowpoint and/or fragable ammo. Ball ammo is VERY common, because milsurp is ALL ball, and ammo companies like Tula make cheap ball for practice and bugdet ammo.

 

Hydrostatic shock is the effects on living tissue (gel or liquid membrane and filled) hit by trauma, mass-displacement, and sonic energy, due to a nearby high velocity invasion of mass. This invasion of mass is also responsible for the mass-relocation, the shifting of mass in response to an addition of it.

 

Now, that being said, all bullets thereby are causing some degree of hydrostatic shock. But the ones that cause most, are the frangible and softer jacketed hollow point designed bullets, normally quite heavy, made to impact against soft tissue, and expand. The bullet weight itself causes damage and nearby damage when it is caused to stop, in its expansion. When the bullet slams into soft tissue, it does not penetrate deeply, but instead embeds and expands, causing large amounts of tissue damage nearby. This ruptures nearby cells, damages nearby vitals, causes fluid loss - all sorts of problems.

 

Rifle bullets, with their more solid spitzer construction and normally hardened caps, likely penetrate living targets. These rounds could penetrate 2-3 living targets. And though they leave larger exit wounds than entry points, they typically pass clean through targets. They do cause hydrostatic shock as any round would, but typically less than pistol cartridges.

 

5.7mm is a newer round designed to penetrate body armour and have better flight characteristics for aiming. lt was designed not only for handguns, but also sub-machine guns. The ammunition types are typically different than normal law enforcement handgun cartridges, they cause less hydrostatic shock in comparison.

The 7.62 Mauser is a very old pistol cartridge but nevertheless a decent performer. A lot of the loads out there are jacketed ball rounds though. It was made for those long barreled C96 pistols, and it is an outstanding straight shooter as a pistol cartridge. Again, you would see typically less hydrostatic shock than say a .45 ACP round.

 



Cruiser_Katori #68 Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:38 AM

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View PostDirizon, on 26 February 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

5.7mm is a newer round designed to penetrate body armour and have better flight characteristics for aiming. lt was designed not only for handguns, but also sub-machine guns. The ammunition types are typically different than normal law enforcement handgun cartridges, they cause less hydrostatic shock in comparison.

The 7.62 Mauser is a very old pistol cartridge but nevertheless a decent performer. A lot of the loads out there are jacketed ball rounds though. It was made for those long barreled C96 pistols, and it is an outstanding straight shooter as a pistol cartridge. Again, you would see typically less hydrostatic shock than say a .45 ACP round.

 

1) 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev are kinda different. 7.63 Mauser is a lower pressure round than 7.62 Tokarev, meaning you can use 7.63 Mauser in Tokarev chambered gun, while using Tokarev in a Mauser chambered gun could mean KABOOM.

2) I would like to see your sources on hydrostatic shock, they may have information I lack.

3) Are the same weight as ball ammo, they compensate for the hollow section by using a slightly longer bullet seated deeper in the case to maintain round dimensions.

4) Shot placement is king. A .32 ACP to the face is going to be a more effective stop than a .45 ACP to the shoulder/abdomen/extremity. Remember NOT to practice at "murder distance" (i.e. more than 25 feet): remember that the Tueller Drill puts the average H2H armed attacker able to cover about 25 feet before the average CCW citizen is able to unholster, so be ready before this. 

5) Spitzers only have hardend caps if they are AP-type, standard spit "ball" is just as soft as anything else of similar composition. Also, I reccomend doing clay block tests of hollowpoint pistol vs. rifle ball rounds, also try a variety of ball rounds. You may be surprised at how little penetration some rifle rounds have (5.56x45 and 5.45x39 are good examples).


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