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Make all bullets the same range


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Dirizon #21 Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:04 PM

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A 7mm or 8mm rifle / machine gun bullet was a cartridge made to be fired by hand. With a lighter, recoil managed weapon, without much propellant burned up.

A 2Omm  or 3Omm automatic cannon is basically a mechanized weapon, weighing in many cases 1Ox a machine gun weight, using very heavy projectiles with very different casings & payload, materials, and greater propellant burned. That is why the recoils are far different.

 

What you are saying, make a 9mm Beretta fire it's 9mm Luger bullet the exact same range as a 25mm Bushmaster cannon on a Bradley. Makes sense.

 

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Croyd_Crenson #22 Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:14 PM

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View PostDirizon, on 23 February 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

[Content removed.]

 

A 7mm or 8mm rifle / machine gun bullet was a cartridge made to be fired by hand. With a lighter, recoil managed weapon, without much propellant burned up.

A 2Omm  or 3Omm automatic cannon is basically a mechanized weapon, weighing in many cases 1Ox a machine gun weight, using very heavy projectiles with very different casings & payload, materials, and greater propellant burned. That is why the recoils are far different.

 

 

 

If you want to quote me , by all means ,please do. Don't twist my words or create ones I never used.

Your statement lacks , only due to the fact you are not factoring in muzzle velocities .

a 7mm or 8mm uses a lot less in way of compounds in order to propel the bullet but it still has a higher muzzle velocity than a 20mm or 30mm round.

I left a lot of information spread out in a few posts explaining it, perhaps you missed those posts .

 

 

If the 9mm beretta has a higher muzzle velocity and they both aim at a 45 degree f, the beretta will actually go further.

If they both hit the same target , of course the 25mm will do more damage but that is not what this thread is about.


Edited by Croyd_Crenson, 23 February 2014 - 06:03 PM.

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xMADDMANNx #23 Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:19 PM

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_drop#Bullet_drop

This is a good example of why different bullets should drop in vast contrast between 20mm 30mm or 7.92/7.62

As well show ranges that the bullets/cannon will stay viable before they arc below your MG light weapons, your 20mm should dip below your MG's at long range.. ect

 

Basic bullet math.. its how they work..and in my view if WG should let it be as is..

and if you ever had a question what a 30mm can do with one hit.. look here at the WWII test footage one single round is used.

http://youtu.be/sZZGaEEi8Ek

 

 



Heh #24 Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

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View PostDirizon, on 23 February 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

[Content removed.]

 

A 7mm or 8mm rifle / machine gun bullet was a cartridge made to be fired by hand. With a lighter, recoil managed weapon, without much propellant burned up.

A 2Omm  or 3Omm automatic cannon is basically a mechanized weapon, weighing in many cases 1Ox a machine gun weight, using very heavy projectiles with very different casings & payload, materials, and greater propellant burned. That is why the recoils are far different.

 

What you are saying, make a 9mm Beretta fire it's 9mm Luger bullet the exact same range as a 25mm Bushmaster cannon on a Bradley. Makes sense.

 

 

You're forgetting a little something here. Most 20mm cannons in-game have roughly the same or worse muzzle velocity than the MG caliber bullets at hand. That last part of yours consists of comparing a subsonic 330 m/s bullet with a 1100 m/s shell. The shell's sheer weight is enough to compensate for the larger diameter, and let's not talk about the speed and effective range comparisons (50-60m vs 1 km+).

 

However, we're talking about guns with roughly the same velocity or much worse velocity than an MG bullet. Yes, the Hispano may edge out a little bit on the M2 in maximum range (200m more or so), but the rest have lower range, especially the mk 108 that strangely has a longer range than the .50 cals in-game.


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Jungle31 #25 Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:41 PM

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There is a max effective range of gun fire from aircraft.  Hits beyond that range are so unlikely and so ineffective if they make contact as to not be worth expending ammunition (or in this game, gun heat).  Bullets tumble, disperse and fail to fuse rendering your high explosive, incendiary or AP/I rounds useless. Those max effective ranges vary greatly from gun to gun and cannon to cannon.  One thing that is not accurately portrayed by the aiming reticle is the is concept of having a longer effective range if an aircraft is coming at you versus going away.  It makes a HUGE difference in real air-to-air gunnery.  You can shoot 20mm effectively out to 6000 feet head-on, but less than half that from someone's 6 o'clock.  

 

Making all the guns the same range would negate the advantage of carrying the big cannons into the fray but leave all the disadvantages of slower speed and poor maneuverability.  It would not balance the game at all, rather UN-balance it.

 

One of the best skills you must learn early is how to destroy someone's gun shot on you.  It won't matter what they are carrying if you can keep them from hitting you. 

 

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2_Stroke_Johnson #26 Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:51 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

...

We can add trajectories as well. If both planes fire into a vertical climb at the same time , the 30mm guns will stop accelerating long before the 12mm guns do.

...

 

not much physics here (ok, no physics), but don't bullets stop accelerating immediately upon exiting the barrel, if not before?


 


Dirizon #27 Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:02 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

If you want to quote me , by all means ,please do. Don't twist my words or create ones I never used.

Your statement lacks , only due to the fact you are not factoring in muzzle velocities .

a 7mm or 8mm uses a lot less in way of compounds in order to propel the bullet but it still has a higher muzzle velocity than a 20mm or 30mm round.

I left a lot of information spread out in a few posts explaining it, perhaps you missed those posts .

 

 

If the 9mm beretta has a higher muzzle velocity and they both aim at a 45 degree f, the beretta will actually go further.

If they both hit the same target , of course the 25mm will do more damage but that is not what this thread is about.

 

You really don't know what you are talking about. Not in the slightest. Which leads me to ask if you are just trying to be a troll.

 

A hollow point 9mm Luger bullet travels 38O-4OOm/s, depending on factory loads. The 9mm bullet suffers severe subsonic decay in its path, wild dispersion due to a non-spitzer shape. The bullet is wildly off at 2OO-3OOm, and won't penetrate thick clothing even.

 

A 3Omm Apache automatic cannon fires air-cutting, aerodynamic AP projectiles at 8O5m/s, that coupled with its mass and mass retention, allows for stand off firing at extreme ranges. A 3Omm cannon on a Soviet BMP has even higher performance, with greater muzzle velocity, with stated effective ranges over 2km.

 

Side by side, even a 1917 19mm Becker Cannon, one of the first designed for shooting down military airships and observation balloons, using a very obsolete 19x7Omm projectile (with outdated 19th century metallurgy) will outperform even a high powered pistol like .414 magnum. ln range, muzzle velocity, velocity decay, accuracy dispersion, and range travelled. A damn pistol bullet is hitting the ground relatively quick, whereas a .5O cal bullet can still be airborne down range.

 

l am not saying larger calibre usually means better flight performance, no far from it. Weapons like 3Omm MK1O8 have horrid flight and muzzle characteristics, getting its killing power from different properties. But not all heavy cannons use the German Patent Minengeschoss, using HE filler to destroy targets. The MK1O1, 1O3, being designed first for air-ground armoured vehicle attack, still used high flight performance and dynamics to ensure accuracy and penetration.      

 

Stop trying to speak like an engineer or material scientist, if you clearly are not one. Just because a game is an arcade one, does not mean a rifle bullet should have the same range as a 37mm anti-armour automatic cannon.

 

 

 



Croyd_Crenson #28 Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:05 PM

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View Post2_Stroke_Johnson, on 23 February 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

 

not much physics here (ok, no physics), but don't bullets stop accelerating immediately upon exiting the barrel, if not before?

The 30mm will stop acceleration first , my bad i used the wrong word. By stopping acceleration first I mean it will stop advancing forward and then start falling towards the earth.


Edited by Croyd_Crenson, 23 February 2014 - 06:05 PM.

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SourHammer #29 Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:14 PM

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  I don't know what any of all this means ,but I am starting to get the hang of a 1 shot kill from 2200 ft with my 45mm I just wish all computers would screen shot the looks on the enemies face for me :ohmy:

Edited by dawson112299, 23 February 2014 - 06:15 PM.


eggplant84 #30 Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:22 PM

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Well the problem of this thread is that some planes rely soley on firepower for an advantage or majority of their advantage. Your suggestion would kill that. The last thing this game needs is less diversity. If it was a matter of being unable to avoid 262 guns or unable to retaliate, it might have merit. However, while strong the 262 has substantial weaknesses and strengths that can become weaknesses. 

 

You our could try to balance the out via direct stat changes but that just hurts the planes more than helping those playing. If you feel disadvantaged in your plane against other planes, pick another plane then. Either way you can't balance skills, one must improve their own by learning from their mistakes, or do the same thing over and get nowhere.



billafu #31 Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:30 PM

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BrushWolf #32 Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:42 PM

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What the OP is asking for would require more complicated computations, loss of energy for different rounds, etc, than the current system requires. I think the system could use some tweaking but the basics work.

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Heh #33 Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:17 PM

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View PostDirizon, on 23 February 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

 

You really don't know what you are talking about. Not in the slightest. Which leads me to ask if you are just trying to be a troll.

 

A hollow point 9mm Luger bullet travels 38O-4OOm/s, depending on factory loads. The 9mm bullet suffers severe subsonic decay in its path, wild dispersion due to a non-spitzer shape. The bullet is wildly off at 2OO-3OOm, and won't penetrate thick clothing even.

 

A 3Omm Apache automatic cannon fires air-cutting, aerodynamic AP projectiles at 8O5m/s, that coupled with its mass and mass retention, allows for stand off firing at extreme ranges. A 3Omm cannon on a Soviet BMP has even higher performance, with greater muzzle velocity, with stated effective ranges over 2km.

 

Side by side, even a 1917 19mm Becker Cannon, one of the first designed for shooting down military airships and observation balloons, using a very obsolete 19x7Omm projectile (with outdated 19th century metallurgy) will outperform even a high powered pistol like .414 magnum. ln range, muzzle velocity, velocity decay, accuracy dispersion, and range travelled. A damn pistol bullet is hitting the ground relatively quick, whereas a .5O cal bullet can still be airborne down range.

 

l am not saying larger calibre usually means better flight performance, no far from it. Weapons like 3Omm MK1O8 have horrid flight and muzzle characteristics, getting its killing power from different properties. But not all heavy cannons use the German Patent Minengeschoss, using HE filler to destroy targets. The MK1O1, 1O3, being designed first for air-ground armoured vehicle attack, still used high flight performance and dynamics to ensure accuracy and penetration.      

 

Stop trying to speak like an engineer or material scientist, if you clearly are not one. Just because a game is an arcade one, does not mean a rifle bullet should have the same range as a 37mm anti-armour automatic cannon.

 

 

 

 

Oddly enough, you're talking about shell weight and all, yet you're still forgetting the fact that 20mm cannons had a slightly shorter range than .50 cals, or slightly higher. We're simply comparing a .50 BMG to a Hispano shell, and with 10 m/s less on the Hispano's muzzle velocity, we end up with 200 extra meters for the cannon. You are singling out muzzle velocity on your point. The main reason why 9mm Parabellum has such bad penetration is due to how short the barrel it's fired from is and also due to how little gunpowder there is.

 

Now, MG 151 mine shells flew at 800 m/s. Shvak HE-frag shells flew at 790 m/s. Type 99 shells flew from 600 to 750 m/s depending on model. With that in mind, I'm inclined to believe that the maximum ranges for all but the MG 151 would be inferior. Yet look at what we have in-game. 20mms have higher range than all .50 cals. Yes, there's the MG 213/20, but it's a very high velocity autocannon, A bit bothersome to see that even mk 108s have longer range.


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An_Average_Jho #34 Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:31 PM

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Look at this website and its many calculators. You can go type in any initial velocity or angle you want, and you can look at the results. 'Hands on' learning is better than arguing about classical mechanics. While it doesn't include aerodynamics, it's still a pretty good tool for estimates.

 

The equation for range (in this case, not maximum  or effective range but the range at which the projectile falls back to the height of its initial position) is given by :

 

R = [(initial velocity)^2 sin(2 theta)] / g

 

Once it comes down to practical applications, one does have to take into account the weight and aerodynamics of the projectile. So long as the aerodynamics are about equal, comparing the initial velocity works to an extent; comparing bullets with bullets is fine, but once you mix shells in, it gets a bit funky. It's the whole "don't mix apples with oranges" kind of stuff you learn in algebra. 


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Croyd_Crenson #35 Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:36 PM

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View Posteggplant84, on 23 February 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Well the problem of this thread is that some planes rely soley on firepower for an advantage or majority of their advantage. Your suggestion would kill that. The last thing this game needs is less diversity. If it was a matter of being unable to avoid 262 guns or unable to retaliate, it might have merit. However, while strong the 262 has substantial weaknesses and strengths that can become weaknesses. 

 

You our could try to balance the out via direct stat changes but that just hurts the planes more than helping those playing. If you feel disadvantaged in your plane against other planes, pick another plane then. Either way you can't balance skills, one must improve their own by learning from their mistakes, or do the same thing over and get nowhere.

My suggestion has nothing to do with changing any firepower stats.

If all gun ranges were the same,  that wouldn't change anything as far as firepower goes.

Planes that rely mostly on firepower due to their inability to out-turn or outrun other planes would actually get a boost rather than a nerf.

I'm trying to think of which exact planes you are talking about, you have only mentioned the 262 in your post. The 262 would still have its boom and zoom capabilities, it can still outclimb anything in it's tier, and can still go head on with other planes with devastating effects.

Let's say a 262 goes head-on with a p-51h . Are you saying that 4x 30 mm wont stil be as devestating against 6x12mm's?

 

The British heavy line and the Russian Attack plane line would both serve to get a buff. All of the guns that they carry ,that are shorter range than their larger caliber guns, would be hitting at the same time.

Mosquito for example would be a lot better if all it's guns hit out to the same range.

The IL's line would take out ground targets a lot faster if their guns all had the same range as well.

 

If you read this please give me an example of what exact planes you are refering to that rely solely on their firepower.

 

 


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WulfNose #36 Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:27 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

The 30mm will stop acceleration first , my bad i used the wrong word. By stopping acceleration first I mean it will stop advancing forward and then start falling towards the earth.

 

The bullet stops accelerating when it leaves the barrel, and begins decelerating once it encounters the atmosphere. The bullet begins to fall to the earth at once, if fired flat, but describes a parabola if fired at any angle above. If in a vacuum, an exact parabola, but not so exact when slowed by the atmosphere. Absent contact with a target, a bullet will continue to advance forward, although to a decreasing degree as it falls faster. Don't all of the WoWP planes rely on their gun firepower, with the addition of bombs and rockets, which are, I suppose a form of firepower. So, we have firepower and ramming. Wulf



Heibges #37 Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:37 PM

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I think he means he wants "Tracer Burnout", which is about 1000m.  This would actually be more realistic than the current system.

 

It isn't so much about the capabilities of the projectile in regards to range, but the sighting/mounting system. 

 

Is the first engagement in Tank Table VIII, still the TC/Gunner Simultaneous Engagement?   If I remember the TC's mover he gets with the .50 is was at like 450m?   Would I be able to do that at 1000m?  I doubt it.

 

 


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Cruiser_Katori #38 Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:23 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Using different trajectories your right about one gun not shooting as far as another.

If both gun of different calibers , lets say for example are on the same plane, spitfire could be used as an example; if both guns firing with the same trajectory at the same time "according to the laws of physics", they will both hit the ground at the same time.

You can argue it till your blue in the face, simple fact ,you can't change the laws of physics.

They will hit the ground at the same time only in theory. Due to things like air resistance, friction, the curvature of the earth, etc. the larger round and/or more aerodynamic round will travel farther and retain more KE than a smaller/less aerodynamic round, hence the .338 laupa vs .22 LR comparison. Honestly, the large guns on the attack planes have ALREADY had their effective range reduced from 1,500 meters to less than 1,000 meters since beta. If you have ever flown any of the jets you will know that the closing time is already very short, and that forcing them to engage within 400 meters is just ASKING for a ramfest. 

But what do I know? Gun dispersion was a terribad idea, and WG is STILL trying to make that n00bcrutch work, so I honestly have no idea if the devs would think this, this THING you have thought up to be a good idea as well.....


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Dirizon #39 Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:51 PM

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View PostHeh, on 23 February 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

 

Oddly enough, you're talking about shell weight and all, yet you're still forgetting the fact that 20mm cannons had a slightly shorter range than .50 cals, or slightly higher. We're simply comparing a .50 BMG to a Hispano shell, and with 10 m/s less on the Hispano's muzzle velocity, we end up with 200 extra meters for the cannon. You are singling out muzzle velocity on your point. The main reason why 9mm Parabellum has such bad penetration is due to how short the barrel it's fired from is and also due to how little gunpowder there is.

 

Now, MG 151 mine shells flew at 800 m/s. Shvak HE-frag shells flew at 790 m/s. Type 99 shells flew from 600 to 750 m/s depending on model. With that in mind, I'm inclined to believe that the maximum ranges for all but the MG 151 would be inferior. Yet look at what we have in-game. 20mms have higher range than all .50 cals. Yes, there's the MG 213/20, but it's a very high velocity autocannon, A bit bothersome to see that even mk 108s have longer range.

 

l'm talking about everything. Shell composition, materials, shape, propellant, exiting PSl, barrel length, barrel rifling.

 

Comparisons have to be between similar parties. Not entirely different things, for different roles. For instance, you are using the Browning O.5O cal HMG that fires a spitzer or AP bullet, out at 9OOm/s, to 2km aimed firing effective range horizontally. Give or take factory loadout, these bullets are full sized rounds by class. The Browning HMG does not have a cropped barrel or muzzle baffle for recoil reduction, it is a heavy forged heavy machine gun for un-interrupted firing over prolonged time (which was the role prior to WWll) The Hispano was an aircraft designed light automatic cannon, made as small as possible, light as possible, and greatly with recoil management in mind. A plane must shoot accurately, in few controlled bursts, without vibrating (besides planes don't carry lots of ammo either) With this in mind the 2Omm round selected, the 2Ox11Omm cartridge, was also selected for better recoil management, depending more on HE filler for lethality rather than the bullet properties itself (HE or incendiary, dictating different shape) Because unlike our former example, the BMG O.5O cal round, which was a full sized cartridge in its class, this Hispano 2Omm is a Kurz round. If you want a flat shooting, high velocity 2Omm example to use to compare with, choose the 2Ox138mm 0erlikon. Which coming out of the numerous ground stationed 2Omm anti-aircraft mounts littering WWll, it was made to shred apart planes thousands of meters from below. The 0erlikon completely trounces the BMG.

 

9mm Luger has bad performance because of a number of things. 9mm Luger is a handgun cartridge, made for close encounters. The bullet shape has not been made for extended flight, nor is it's subsonic velocity. The bullet weight is a bit heavy, but a lot of the 9mm rounds are hollow points, made to maim or kill by delivering hydrostatic shock and organ damage through bullet deformation and expansion. Hence it has a softer build. lncreasing your firing barrel, for instance using an MP5 to fire the 9mm round instead of a Glock 17, or a Kel-Tec carbine - whatever does increase the bullet velocity and overall range, but the bullet has its maximum parameters and the improvements are not great. The exact same thing goes for a O.357 magnum, fired out of a 1894 marlin repeater instead of a Colt revolver. But ti does not matter what barrel is used, be it 6in or 24in in length, a 9mm Luger ammunition really doe snot improve in penetration simply because the bullet was not designed to penetrate. The flight characteristics and range can improve slightly.

 

 



Demon93IT #40 Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:04 PM

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Such flames for a simple request.

 

Anyway back to the topic: the problem of range is that depends on many factors:

-muzzle velocity

-caliber(the higher the caliber the larger the area the higher the drag)

-shape of the bullet

-air density(the higher the density the higher the drag)

 

Instead of counting only on the caliber they could take into account also the muzzle velocity. The other factors are more difficult to implement due to the fact that those parametres should be constant(or at least seems like it). It could be better than making the range equal for every gun since it would cancel the advantage of having better guns.






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