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Make all bullets the same range


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Croyd_Crenson #1 Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:51 PM

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Having differences in range due to caliber is an imbalance in this game.

This will solve a lot of the balancing issues that are definately going on with this game.

Examples

7mm has about half the range of 20 mm

12mm has about half the range of 30mm

7mm guns face of against planes of the same tier that have 20mm but are severely handicapped due to their range,same with 12mm and 30mm.

I see in the patch notes a lot of planes are being buffed, it would be simpler to make all the ranges the same but keep their traveling/flight times the same.

 

 

 


Edited by Croyd_Crenson, 23 February 2014 - 01:54 PM.

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Charbydis #2 Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:28 PM

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Next you'll be asking to make all the planes the same so everyone flies the same plane? Facepalm


Joe42666 #3 Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:29 PM

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I won't claim to be a munitions expert, but i kind of like the different ranges, makes the strategy of the game more intensive, making head on fights undesirable, and making pilots have to barrel roll and weave till they are close. In my opinion id love it to stay

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Heh #4 Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:35 PM

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I don't think it's that bad a concept. I'd say make range depend on muzzle velocity and partially by caliber (the extra drag and all). With that, we could see .50 cals having longer range than the mk 108, which would have bad range due to its poor muzzle velocity. It will be balanced by the obvious fact that the mk 108 will retain its damage potential better.

 

Just an expansion on your concept of changing gun range.


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BrushWolf #5 Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:55 PM

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View PostHeh, on 23 February 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

I don't think it's that bad a concept. I'd say make range depend on muzzle velocity and partially by caliber (the extra drag and all). With that, we could see .50 cals having longer range than the mk 108, which would have bad range due to its poor muzzle velocity. It will be balanced by the obvious fact that the mk 108 will retain its damage potential better.

 

Just an expansion on your concept of changing gun range.

 

The low velocity heavy cannons also have a low rate of fire making long range shots with them only for crack shots.


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WEBEUS #6 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:02 PM

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You do that, and you'd lose half the population. Some of us enjoy the challenge of flying the underdog. let's try to keep the game a bit realistic.



Croyd_Crenson #7 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:11 PM

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View PostWEBEUS, on 23 February 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

You do that, and you'd lose half the population. Some of us enjoy the challenge of flying the underdog. let's try to keep the game a bit realistic.

This suggestion is to make it more realistic. In reality bullets don't disappear off the face of the earth after a certain range.

My suggestion is to make them all the same distance while keeping muzzle velocities as they are now.

WG has another game called World of Tanks, in that game all calibers of ammunition have the same range but different muzzle velocities, that game is doing quite well.

 


Edited by Croyd_Crenson, 23 February 2014 - 03:13 PM.

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WEBEUS #8 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:26 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

This suggestion is to make it more realistic. In reality bullets don't disappear off the face of the earth after a certain range.

My suggestion is to make them all the same distance while keeping muzzle velocities as they are now.

WG has another game called World of Tanks, in that game all calibers of ammunition have the same range but different muzzle velocities, that game is doing quite well.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. As someone who owns firearms, I understand the physics of a bullets trajectory. They don't disappear, but they do fall way. Even a sniper at some ridiculous distance may have to aim 10 feet above his target to hit it.


Edited by WEBEUS, 23 February 2014 - 03:26 PM.


Croyd_Crenson #9 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:31 PM

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View PostWEBEUS, on 23 February 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. As someone who owns firearms, I understand the physics of a bullets trajectory. They don't disappear, but they do fall way. Even a sniper at some ridiculous distance may have to aim 10 feet above his target to hit it.

I'm not sure where your going with this? As someone who also owns firearms and knows about trajectory and falloff. If you fire a bullet , no matter what caliber it is ,it will have the same exact falloff.

Here's an example for others that are reading it that may not understand.

If you drop a bowling ball , an egg , a lightbulb, and an anvil at the exact same time, they all hit the ground at the exact same time.

And as for your other post about liking to be the underdog ,your entitled to that. The rest of the world doesn't like playing disadvantaged.


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WulfNose #10 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:34 PM

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My .22 does not shoot as far as my .338. I can compete at 50 feet with the .22. The box used to say "range one mile," but there is the concept of effective range. I can complete with my Rugar #1 Rifle in .338 at 300 yards, while an expert can readily compete at 1,000 yards with the same rifle. It makes no sense whatsoever to make all the guns in WoWP have the same "range." Bullets slow due to air resistance, but there comes a point where the server having to keep track of "spent bullets" is a computational burden. In WoT, I use HE at long range. It does damage base in major part on its bursting charge. Wulf

WEBEUS #11 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm not sure where your going with this? As someone who also owns firearms and knows about trajectory and falloff. If you fire a bullet , no matter what caliber it is ,it will have the same exact falloff.

Here's an example for others that are reading it that may not understand.

If you drop a bowling ball , an egg , a lightbulb, and an anvil at the exact same time, they all hit the ground at the exact same time.

And as for your other post about liking to be the underdog ,your entitled to that. The rest of the world doesn't like playing disadvantaged.

Obviously I'm not understanding your original post then. Perhaps others do. carry on.



WEBEUS #12 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:37 PM

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View PostWulfNose, on 23 February 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

My .22 does not shoot as far as my .338. I can compete at 50 feet with the .22. The box used to say "range one mile," but there is the concept of effective range. I can complete with my Rugar #1 Rifle in .338 at 300 yards, while an expert can readily compete at 1,000 yards with the same rifle. It makes no sense whatsoever to make all the guns in WoWP have the same "range." Bullets slow due to air resistance, but there comes a point where the server having to keep track of "spent bullets" is a computational burden. In WoT, I use HE at long range. It does damage base in major part on its bursting charge. Wulf

This is what I was thinking.



Topsight #13 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:44 PM

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Redistribution of range? Yep that will make those happy that worked so hard to go up in Tier (Grades). :angry:

 


Croyd_Crenson #14 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:45 PM

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View PostWulfNose, on 23 February 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

My .22 does not shoot as far as my .338. I can compete at 50 feet with the .22. The box used to say "range one mile," but there is the concept of effective range. I can complete with my Rugar #1 Rifle in .338 at 300 yards, while an expert can readily compete at 1,000 yards with the same rifle. It makes no sense whatsoever to make all the guns in WoWP have the same "range." Bullets slow due to air resistance, but there comes a point where the server having to keep track of "spent bullets" is a computational burden. In WoT, I use HE at long range. It does damage base in major part on its bursting charge. Wulf

Using different trajectories your right about one gun not shooting as far as another.

If both gun of different calibers , lets say for example are on the same plane, spitfire could be used as an example; if both guns firing with the same trajectory at the same time "according to the laws of physics", they will both hit the ground at the same time.

You can argue it till your blue in the face, simple fact ,you can't change the laws of physics.


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Croyd_Crenson #15 Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:46 PM

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View PostTopsight, on 23 February 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Redistribution of range? Yep that will make those happy that worked so hard to go up in Tier (Grades). :angry:

Sure people will be unhappy , some people will be happy , some won't care.

This is game balancing suggestion , not a poll to see if people won't like a level playing field.

 

Edit* also need to add 1 more thing. A plane with a higher muzzle velocity , in reality, has a longer range then one with a lower one.

Let's take a look at the me262 vs the p-51H

Me 262's muzzle velocity in the game with 3mm cannons = 540m/s

p-51H with 12mms has a muzzle velocity of 890 m/s.

We can add trajectories as well. If both planes fire into a vertical climb at the same time , the 30mm guns will stop accelerating long before the 12mm guns do.

If both planes are firing horizontally , the 12mms will land first due to muzzle velocity , not the other way around as it is in game.

So in reality the plane with the higher muzzle velocity should have the better range .


Edited by Croyd_Crenson, 23 February 2014 - 04:00 PM.

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WulfNose #16 Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:11 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Using different trajectories your right about one gun not shooting as far as another.

If both gun of different calibers , lets say for example are on the same plane, spitfire could be used as an example; if both guns firing with the same trajectory at the same time "according to the laws of physics", they will both hit the ground at the same time.

You can argue it till your blue in the face, simple fact ,you can't change the laws of physics.

 

Yes, I was a physics major before I became an engineer. Bullets will fall to the ground in very nearly the same about of time from the same height. Firing straight ahead does not change that fact. But firing with an upward trajectory changes many factors. If I was preparing to fire my .338 in a tourney, I would consult a ballistics chart because the physics (while present) would have to take into account many factors. Bullet weight does matter, as it both affects initial velocity and the ability of the bullet to overcome drag. Shape of the bullet. Cross section. Stability of the bullet after spin rate declines due to friction. In-computable. But, measurable, thus the chart. In-game, cannon fire clearly must "out range" mg fire when in a "ballistic" trajectory. Sure, if both are fired straight ahead, they will strike the ground at very nearly the same time. While true, irrelevant. Guns are fired to take bullet drip into account. Wulf



Croyd_Crenson #17 Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:21 PM

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View PostWulfNose, on 23 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

 

Yes, I was a physics major before I became an engineer. Bullets will fall to the ground in very nearly the same about of time from the same height. Firing straight ahead does not change that fact. But firing with an upward trajectory changes many factors. If I was preparing to fire my .338 in a tourney, I would consult a ballistics chart because the physics (while present) would have to take into account many factors. Bullet weight does matter, as it both affects initial velocity and the ability of the bullet to overcome drag. Shape of the bullet. Cross section. Stability of the bullet after spin rate declines due to friction. In computable. But, measurable, thus the chart. In-game, cannon fire clearly must "out range" mg fire when in a "ballistic" trajectory. Sure, if both fare fired straight ahead, they will strike the ground at very nearly the same time. While true, irrelevant. Guns are fired to take bullet drip into account. Wulf

My suggestion was to make all bullet ranges the same because this is an arcade game more than a simulation.

I didn't put it into my post above but if a 12mm round and a 30 mm round were both fired at any angle above horizontal, then the 30mm hits the ground first. Drag co-effiecents, muzzle velocity, and weight ,all accounted for.

This game in all truth is actually working in the exact opposite, because it doesn't have fall off, to the actual physics of ranges on guns.

If fall-off was added , like it is used in WoT, ranges and accuracy would differ dramatically in favor of smaller caliber though hits with higher caliber would be more detremental as it should be.

 

But my suggestion is not to use exact physics , that would be too much work for the developers; but to just make all the guns ranges the same and level the playing field.

Maybe some day in the future they could use better physics for the ammunition , it would make for a better game thus the reason I made this thread.


Edited by Croyd_Crenson, 23 February 2014 - 04:23 PM.

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SkywhaleExpress #18 Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:26 PM

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View PostCharbydis, on 23 February 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Next you'll be asking to make all the planes the same so everyone flies the same plane? Facepalm

 mmm cookie cutter loadouts.



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SkywhaleExpress #19 Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:35 PM

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View PostCroyd_Crenson, on 23 February 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

My suggestion was to make all bullet ranges the same because this is an arcade game more than a simulation.

I didn't put it into my post above but if a 12mm round and a 30 mm round were both fired at any angle above horizontal, then the 30mm hits the ground first. Drag co-effiecents, muzzle velocity, and weight ,all accounted for.

This game in all truth is actually working in the exact opposite, because it doesn't have fall off, to the actual physics of ranges on guns.

If fall-off was added , like it is used in WoT, ranges and accuracy would differ dramatically in favor of smaller caliber though hits with higher caliber would be more detremental as it should be.

 

But my suggestion is not to use exact physics , that would be too much work for the developers; but to just make all the guns ranges the same and level the playing field.

Maybe some day in the future they could use better physics for the ammunition , it would make for a better game thus the reason I made this thread.

 In real life, the 30 cal and 50 cal guns shot farther out more accurately, whereas 30mm had bigger drop off. Some 20mm had similar trajectory and velocity as the machine guns.

 

Still, in real life, 20/30mm rounds did travel farther. But, the effective firing ranges were relatively the same.

 

This isn't real life though.



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Croyd_Crenson #20 Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:36 PM

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View PostRocketSpammer1, on 23 February 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

 mmm cookie cutter loadouts.

Actually quite the opposite of cookie cutter.

This won't make all the planes the same as another poster suggested but it will take away some of the severe advantages of flying high caliber orientated planes such as the me262 which another poster is so fond of.

Not asking for real life ,I've stated that in other threads.


Edited by Croyd_Crenson, 23 February 2014 - 04:38 PM.

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