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Keyboard and mouse play ruins the game and prevents growth


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Arthur_Dayne #41 Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:33 PM

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View PostNoreaga, on 17 February 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

I can only tell you what i speculate it to be as I have no more statistics available than you do  and if i truly cared to win this argument, i would spend a few hours on it. 

 

It is many fold imo:

air combat is not easy it requires an understanding of angles in the 3 dimensional, ACMs, climb rate/dive rate. they have to manage their energy made more complicated by the altitude bands and most have never even heard of a "rope a dope". an average joe can join tanks with little foreknowledge of tank tactics (that would be me in tanks) and still do reasonably well, if only by camping in a bush... there are no bushes here and the pace is so fast that tanks is like watching molasses move to me now. 

 

players who refuse to move to the higher tiers due to the quality up there, or they just like T2. So they continue to sit in t2 heavy flights of 3 and absolutely dominate the new people, pretty frustrating to have players who are very good and would be average in the top tiers never letting you get the thrill of shooting a plane down. this is being fixed next patch and i expect to see more people enjoying themselves as more experienced players will end up in a game with other experience players.

 

Finally human nature, people do not like to lose, work hard, or admit their faults/mistakes. Playing devils advocate i actually understand this one since this is a game and who needs more work in their life. 

 

 

Anyway since your leaving this argument is kinda moot, and its not my job to get you to stay. I cant leave this one alone as i have very few stats but dont you need facts to have "this what I call deniability of facts."?

 

sorry if this doesn't fit anymore there were 5 replies while i wrote this 

 

Y

 


So we are in 100% agreement.... the disconnect between you and I tho is that you think learning all of this complicated stuff...is easier on a keyboard....I say a joystick is easier to learn on..WG should not be stuborn and listen to the yes men....what they need to do is what I said pull people off the street....and pay them to fly the game $20 per hour...and ask them whats easier...ask them what makes them want to play more sticks or keyboards...flight games are joystick games...the population will not increase when mouse players are given Computer assisted targeting....only a handful of people will play keyboard ever......you can tell me right now everyone uses the keybpoard that's playing...and I say to u...THATS a handful....the average people you want to play are not because for beginners keyboard flight is unnatural and extremely hard...AND the AVID flight gamer is not migrateing...because they use a joystick...and what they r seeing is....the cyborg players...half human..half computer....getting auto aim...and flight help...in my eyes WG has achoice take sticks out completely...so they don't have people playing at an unfair advangte..so that there is not two games  going on...becuz mosue n keybord is an entirely different gamr than stick..yet the two are forced to play each other.....OR take out all the computer assited flight and auto aiming.....that comes with computer assisted flight....and go with basic keyboard controls...combined with better joystick implementation which I think will increase the games population.....

 

so yes dreamer u are correct...as to why people don't play...yet u don't recognize mpouse and keyboard play is a curse to new players.....


Edited by Arthur_Dayne, 18 February 2014 - 11:40 PM.


phantmjokr #42 Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:53 PM

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All I can say is this...

 

Initially I was using an xbox360 controller. It was very frustrating in large part because the game does not offer in game calibration and tweaking of the controller. In other words, I was either able to fly straight, or I was in full turn mode and unable to track any targets. Or, my plane "wobbled" through battles because the stick dead zone was too small and stuff. All old school stick calibration stuff that I thought I would find in game. I haven't used a real stick on a flight sim for some years since I got tired of always fighting with the PC over upgrades and patches, etc. Anyway...

 

I switched to mouse control for the above reason. Offering an in game tool to calibrate controllers would help.

 

As most have said. its a trade off. Yeah it's easier to target enemies, its also far far harder to get tactical results. Wanna roll over and dive for the BnZ? Not happening. There are other trade offs. In the end I think k/m is limiting on results. That is in the end you're better off being a good stick flyer as you can outmaneuver k/m. So what does k/m do? It gives new players easy results against each other.

 

WG.net is where many of the kids are. It has peeps. I'm here and I'm not sure I like it all that much. WoTs has a bad practice of making you, well, at least feel, almost worthless in too many matches. IMHO the tier sep is just too high in the mid to higher levels. I have not been with WoW long enough yet to find that out other than getting one shot popped by German Heavies. I dunno. I used to play the old old old AOL warplane game and it just seemed to have a better battle setup with multiple airfields to attack and defend, radar stations, real heavy bombers with playable MG defense, etc.

 

Yet still I play. Its something to do. And as soon as my critical thinking cap goes on all the fun gets sucked out of a game like WoW. WG.net games ARE more ARCADE games than sims. TIFWIW....



MrPsychic #43 Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:31 PM

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Arthur, there's no such thing as auto aim, I will be blunt.  This is a free to play game.  I will NOT be forced to spend extra money to buy a peripheral for ONE game when I have high end mouse and keyboard.  More new people play with mouse and keyboard.  Would it really attract new players to say 'Hey, here's a free game, but it's not really cause you need a joystick to play'? No, they will say the same as everyone else "Oh, I'm not spending extra for that! I'm moving to a different game!"


_Lindy_ #44 Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:11 PM

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Please show me this auto aim feature I cant seem to get it to work?

datum perficiemus munus

 

 


Noreaga #45 Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:26 PM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 18 February 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:


So we are in 100% agreement.... the disconnect between you and I tho is that you think learning all of this complicated stuff...is easier on a keyboard....I say a joystick is easier to learn on..WG should not be stuborn and listen to the yes men....what they need to do is what I said pull people off the street....and pay them to fly the game $20 per hour...and ask them whats easier...ask them what makes them want to play more sticks or keyboards...flight games are joystick games...the population will not increase when mouse players are given Computer assisted targeting....only a handful of people will play keyboard ever......you can tell me right now everyone uses the keybpoard that's playing...and I say to u...THATS a handful....the average people you want to play are not because for beginners keyboard flight is unnatural and extremely hard...AND the AVID flight gamer is not migrateing...because they use a joystick...and what they r seeing is....the cyborg players...half human..half computer....getting auto aim...and flight help...in my eyes WG has achoice take sticks out completely...so they don't have people playing at an unfair advangte..so that there is not two games  going on...becuz mosue n keybord is an entirely different gamr than stick..yet the two are forced to play each other.....OR take out all the computer assited flight and auto aiming.....that comes with computer assisted flight....and go with basic keyboard controls...combined with better joystick implementation which I think will increase the games population.....

 

so yes dreamer u are correct...as to why people don't play...yet u don't recognize mpouse and keyboard play is a curse to new players.....

Sigh this is a disaster im not even going to try anymore, you could not be more wrong about what i am saying or 3/4 of the people in here are trying to explain to you . I don't often say this but this is more troll than discussion.

 

it could also be that i gave up after half of your post, paragraphs man . 

 
In many languages, the fundamental unit of composition is the paragraph.  A paragraph consists of several sentences that are grouped together.  This group of sentences together discuss one main subject.   In U.S. formal academic English, paragraphs have three principal parts.  These three parts are the topic sentence, body sentences, and the concluding sentence.

 

 

im out 


Edited by Noreaga, 21 February 2014 - 01:29 PM.

Nimis obnoxii curare


Topsight #46 Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:58 PM

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I get more satisfaction out of my Stick and it adds another element of flight for me; even in a dogfight against more agile mouse drivers. Yes it's hard, but I like the challenge. As far as someone using a mouse to fly; to each his own. FYI, Jets can be shot down using a Stick; I have done so a few times flying in my piston aircraft. It really comes down to preference; but enjoy my signature in fun mouseketeers. :teethhappy:

Edited by Topsight, 21 February 2014 - 01:59 PM.

 


2_Stroke_Johnson #47 Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:10 PM

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what is this "auto-aim" and how do I get it?  Unless you're a tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theorist (which I'm saying you aren't), you must be talking about some inherent ingame mechanism of which I'm not aware.  Please fill me in.

 

I use mouse-keyboard.  I stopped short of buying a joystick when I realized that the aircraft in the game don't respond to the controls the way I would expect them to.  Some examples, no matter how far you roll, that plane is not going to turn without rudder input.  The flaps don't seem to reduce your stall speed.  I flew knife-edge for a full minute in an IL2 once, which you know is pure fantasy.  

 

So rather than re-learn some fantastical version of flight, I'm content to let the computer handle the flight mechanics while I just point the way.


 


Heibges #48 Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:41 PM

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View Post2_Stroke_Johnson, on 21 February 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

what is this "auto-aim" and how do I get it?  Unless you're a tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theorist (which I'm saying you aren't), you must be talking about some inherent ingame mechanism of which I'm not aware.  Please fill me in.

 

I use mouse-keyboard.  I stopped short of buying a joystick when I realized that the aircraft in the game don't respond to the controls the way I would expect them to.  Some examples, no matter how far you roll, that plane is not going to turn without rudder input.  The flaps don't seem to reduce your stall speed.  I flew knife-edge for a full minute in an IL2 once, which you know is pure fantasy.  

 

So rather than re-learn some fantastical version of flight, I'm content to let the computer handle the flight mechanics while I just point the way.

 

Dispersion, aka, "accuracy cone" is a very common form of auto-aim, although usually only used with shotgun style weapons.

 

With point attack weapons, like assault rifles and smgs, games ususally use a "sticky reticule" is used.


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Wing_Commander_Zero #49 Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:48 PM

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There isn't auto-aim in this game and no amount of wishful thinking or whining is going to make it so. I'll give you this m/kb is steadier so It's easier to shoot but the trade off is it's harder to fly and pull off complicated maneuvers.

xMADDMANNx #50 Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:08 PM

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View Post2_Stroke_Johnson, on 21 February 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

 I'm content to let the computer handle the flight mechanics while I just point the way.

I think you just make every joystick users point right there....

 


Edited by xMADDMANNx, 21 February 2014 - 07:10 PM.


Wing_Commander_Zero #51 Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:58 PM

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View PostxMADDMANNx, on 21 February 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

I think you just make every joystick users point right there....

 

Explain then  why most top players are using joystick? As a matter of fact can anyone who believes that joysticks are at a disadvantage explain this?


Edited by Wing_Commander_Zero, 21 February 2014 - 07:59 PM.


2_Stroke_Johnson #52 Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:33 PM

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View PostxMADDMANNx, on 21 February 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

I think you just make every joystick users point right there....

 

 

You misquoted me a little bit, by lifting a sentence fragment out of context.  The first part "Rather than re-learn some fantastical version of flight..." is kind of relevant to my point.  Whether its relevant to "every joystick users point," I couldn't say, because I don't know what every joystick users' point is.

 

For a more realistic flight simulation game, I would for sure use a joystick. But it's an arcade game.

 

What other people use for control is not really relevant to me at this stage.

 

I will continue reading threads on the subject, evaluating whether a joystick will improve my enjoyment of the game.  I appreciate your input.

 

[note to heibges:  thanks for explaining, I get it now.  so the OP believes mouse users have this and joystick users don't?  hmmmmmm]


 


Nugwan #53 Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:07 PM

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View PostCaptain_F22ACE, on 18 February 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

If you have a ping rate over 100ms then you'll have a hard time aiming.

 

This explains why I am such a bad shot, my ping is ~310ms. Well I'm going to use it as an excuse anyway!



Sandman1969 #54 Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:20 PM

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View PostWing_Commander_Zero, on 21 February 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Explain then  why most top players are using joystick? As a matter of fact can anyone who believes that joysticks are at a disadvantage explain this?

 

 

But how do you get that info without asking each player?



Wing_Commander_Zero #55 Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:22 PM

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Read the thread from the beginning.

Sandman1969 #56 Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:23 AM

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I have, no where does it state factual data stating that these people use stick.

Show me something other than a forum post that says the top players all use stick.



Wing_Commander_Zero #57 Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:32 AM

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I know quite a few people myself that have a 75% and a 6 k/d ratio and use joystick so i'm not surprised by that forum post. I believe it you can choose not to. Again i personally know many Aces that fly with joystick.

 

But we can start a poll thread and figure this out, if nothing else it be interesting.


Edited by Wing_Commander_Zero, 22 February 2014 - 01:34 AM.


Sandman1969 #58 Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:06 AM

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I never said I believed nor disbelieved what was said. I simply asked for something other than hearsay.

It was stated that most of the top 50 use a stick. I want to know where they got that from. A poll would help.



Wing_Commander_Zero #59 Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:02 AM

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View PostSandman1969, on 22 February 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

I never said I believed nor disbelieved what was said. I simply asked for something other than hearsay.

It was stated that most of the top 50 use a stick. I want to know where they got that from. A poll would help.

Well like i said i know a few people that i flight with who have no reason to deceive me attest to their using Joystick. Moreover if you watch youtube videos from some of the top aces in this game you can obviously tell they are using Joystick and some have even stated it. I also talk to many other great players and I've been asking because I'm in the process of buying one. 

 

Basically i think most people that criticize m/kb and use a joystick are suffering from failure to perform at the level of a top ace and start making excuses that it must be the control scheme. It's just an excuse but granted none of what i said is proof. Therefore I have started a poll and will look into this further. I will find out who the top aces in the game are and will ask them directly.



2_Stroke_Johnson #60 Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:38 AM

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Sorry.... Posted in error.


 





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