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Keyboard and mouse play ruins the game and prevents growth


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Noreaga #21 Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:58 PM

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I can only tell you what i speculate it to be as I have no more statistics available than you do  and if i truly cared to win this argument, i would spend a few hours on it. 

 

It is many fold imo:

air combat is not easy it requires an understanding of angles in the 3 dimensional, ACMs, climb rate/dive rate. they have to manage their energy made more complicated by the altitude bands and most have never even heard of a "rope a dope". an average joe can join tanks with little foreknowledge of tank tactics (that would be me in tanks) and still do reasonably well, if only by camping in a bush... there are no bushes here and the pace is so fast that tanks is like watching molasses move to me now. 

 

players who refuse to move to the higher tiers due to the quality up there, or they just like T2. So they continue to sit in t2 heavy flights of 3 and absolutely dominate the new people, pretty frustrating to have players who are very good and would be average in the top tiers never letting you get the thrill of shooting a plane down. this is being fixed next patch and i expect to see more people enjoying themselves as more experienced players will end up in a game with other experience players.

 

Finally human nature, people do not like to lose, work hard, or admit their faults/mistakes. Playing devils advocate i actually understand this one since this is a game and who needs more work in their life. 

 

 

Anyway since your leaving this argument is kinda moot, and its not my job to get you to stay. I cant leave this one alone as i have very few stats but dont you need facts to have "this what I call deniability of facts."?

 

sorry if this doesn't fit anymore there were 5 replies while i wrote this 

 

Y

 


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Dsembr_Rein #22 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:03 AM

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I wish my mouse controls were set up the way you think they are, Arthur, that would make the game a lot easier.

 

You seem to have gotten all dressed up for a black-tie event, when it's really just a costume party. Instead of going with it and enjoying yourself, you're getting mad at everyone else for not adhering to your personal dress code.

 

This is not a flight sim, it does not require you to play it as if it were. If you want to approach this game from a flight sim purist standpoint, go ahead, but don't hold everyone else to your ridiculous standard based on how they play the game.



Mr_D_Duck #23 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:10 AM

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GIVE-UP my Dear Little MOUSE ... Please play with want you want and don't make excuses ... OUTA MY COLD DEAD HANDS ... ONLY !:izmena:

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Sandman1969 #24 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:30 AM

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Ok first, this is NOT a flight sim and you should be ashamed for accusing it of being one.

Second, I have used mouse and keyboard since CBT & there is no mouse aim. IF there was, I would have a LOT more kills & aces than I currently have.

Third, where do you keep pulling this "100s of thousands" crap from?? Got any proof that "100s of thousands" have quit the game because of mouse? Any at all?

 

I come to these forums daily & have yet to see many let alone any, threads about people quitting because of mouse.

If the game was as easy as you claim with the claim of auto aim, do you think for one second that I would have had as many rant threads as I have in the past about the game and sucking at it?

I worked hard to get to where I am using mouse & keyboard. It was not an easy task, but I faired out pretty well.

 

The only thing my mouse needs is more sensitivity and WG once told me they may include that at some point.



Darcel_Jones #25 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:31 AM

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Well I am loath to admit this but I think AD might just have a point.

Now this could be because I have almost 2000 matches with M&K set up.Well I made a friend who has a joystick,download the game and I tried to play and found it next to impossible,so while I don't believe in auto-aim as you call it AD,i can see ur point in that a mouse setup does help you fly the plane while a joystick setup has to be relentless tweaked to work. 



Bad_Lag #26 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:37 AM

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Its next to impossible because you have 2000 battles with mouse and keyboard. Play 2000 battles with joystick then go back to mouse and keyboard......it wont be easy readjusting back. Also, the mouse controls need to be relentlessy tweaked to get optimum performance for your style.  I know because it took about 500 battles before I found the settings that worked for me.

Heibges #27 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:42 AM

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Is the OP's major complaint is that KB/M players get too many kills compared to those using Joystick?  Is it easier to maneuver behind someone and get guns on them with joystick than it is with a mouse and keyboard?  What about gamepad?   Does WG collect any type of telemetry on this?

 

It's a very difficult thing to try and balance different control devices across the same game.   The last one to really try it was Shadowrun on PC/Xbox, and it was a huge disaster.

 

I could play Secret Weapons Over Normandy on "expert" flight controls on XBOX/PS2 and rip through it, but couldn't shoot down a single plane when playing with a joystick on PC.

 

Perhaps Joystick and Gamepad need a reduction in Dispersion/RNG compared to KB/M.  KB/M (Standard)  +/- 25%   Joystick = +/- 20%   Gamepad = +/- 15%

 

But for a PC shooter, both gamepad and joystick will in general need more autoaim/sticky reticule/damage cone/better RNG  than KB/M. 

 


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FryaDuck #28 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:48 AM

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View PostDreamer_Y, on 18 February 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

  but i know for a fact that a large portion of the top 50 on noobmeter use joystick

 

Is one out of 50 a large portion?

 

The fact is, rather inelegantly put by the OP, that there is a large disparity between mouse/KB and JS. How do we know that there is a disparity? WG won't use Flight Sim or JS pilots in Supertest. Further the JS bug, which came out of Supertest to the CT server would not have occurred if they had JS Supertesters. WG have admitted as such.

 

The painful disparity between JS and Mouse/KB is that with the mouse the users don't fly the aircraft. Given sufficient experience in the game they simply align the aim with the target without over-correction.

 

As Heibes put it, there needs to be an advantage that JS (or even gamepad) has that Mouse/KB doesn't.


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Darcel_Jones #29 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:50 AM

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View PostBad_Lag, on 18 February 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

Its next to impossible because you have 2000 battles with mouse and keyboard. Play 2000 battles with joystick then go back to mouse and keyboard......it wont be easy readjusting back. Also, the mouse controls need to be relentlessy tweaked to get optimum performance for your style.  I know because it took about 500 battles before I found the settings that worked for me.

Yeah,I should have put a P.S. on that post.That friend who has never played the game was doing a lot better then me with the joystick because he was used to playing other games with it,I have never played a game with one and do not intend to.



SkywhaleExpress #30 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:50 AM

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Mouse aim IS easier than Joystick.. at a cost to ability to quickly change direction. 

 

However, we only need one topic on it, Arthur... Not ten million



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petersleepy #31 Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:59 AM

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View PostFryaDuck, on 17 February 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

 

Is one out of 50 a large portion?

 

The fact is, rather inelegantly put by the OP, that there is a large disparity between mouse/KB and JS. How do we know that there is a disparity? WG won't use Flight Sim or JS pilots in Supertest. Further the JS bug, which came out of Supertest to the CT server would not have occurred if they had JS Supertesters. WG have admitted as such.

 

The painful disparity between JS and Mouse/KB is that with the mouse the users don't fly the aircraft. Given sufficient experience in the game they simply align the aim with the target without over-correction.

 

As Heibes put it, there needs to be an advantage that JS (or even gamepad) has that Mouse/KB doesn't.

Given that you play with 200 ping, I don't find it surprising that you think mouse+keyboard has a large advantage over joystick.

 

Here are the top 10 by win% on noobmeter:

  1. joystick
  2. joystick
  3. joystick
  4. mouse
  5. revo: drac guys help me on this one?
  6. don't know
  7. mouse
  8. joystick (I think)
  9. joystick
  10. xbox 360 controller

 

 


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BrushWolf #32 Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:04 AM

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View PostDreamer_Y, on 17 February 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm getting pretty tired of these rants, there is no auto aim for mouse, i have played tons of flight sims and have and still do play them with a joystick. This arcade game (important distinction) doesn't work for me with a joystick (the physics are frustrating for me with one)  but i know for a fact that a large portion of the top 50 on noobmeter use joystick (i know a lot of them). So, i do have trouble with your logic if the best players in the game do well with joystick then how is using the mouse OP?

 

 

If its not so called troll flights then its mouse users... time to take responsibility for your success or failures.

 

i hope that WOWS is more your thing,

 

Y

 

 

 

This, there is no auto aim but the mouse & KB players are able to get their shots on target easier, however joystick player are able to fly better. Use the one you are more comfortable using. 


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DJChrisRock #33 Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:08 AM

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View PostDreamer_Y, on 17 February 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

I can only tell you what i speculate it to be as I have no more statistics available than you do  and if i truly cared to win this argument, i would spend a few hours on it. 

 

It is many fold imo:

air combat is not easy it requires an understanding of angles in the 3 dimensional, ACMs, climb rate/dive rate. they have to manage their energy made more complicated by the altitude bands and most have never even heard of a "rope a dope". an average joe can join tanks with little foreknowledge of tank tactics (that would be me in tanks) and still do reasonably well, if only by camping in a bush... there are no bushes here and the pace is so fast that tanks is like watching molasses move to me now. 

 

players who refuse to move to the higher tiers due to the quality up there, or they just like T2. So they continue to sit in t2 heavy flights of 3 and absolutely dominate the new people, pretty frustrating to have players who are very good and would be average in the top tiers never letting you get the thrill of shooting a plane down. this is being fixed next patch and i expect to see more people enjoying themselves as more experienced players will end up in a game with other experience players.

 

Finally human nature, people do not like to lose, work hard, or admit their faults/mistakes. Playing devils advocate i actually understand this one since this is a game and who needs more work in their life. 

 

 

Anyway since your leaving this argument is kinda moot, and its not my job to get you to stay. I cant leave this one alone as i have very few stats but dont you need facts to have "this what I call deniability of facts."?

 

sorry if this doesn't fit anymore there were 5 replies while i wrote this 

 

Y

 

Y, I gotta quote this and give you a +1 here since I've used up my daily allotment of high fives.  Imo you summed it up perfectly.... Air combat is hard.  Some pick it up quick, others, like myself, take a little longer, and some, unfortunately never get the hang of it.  The MM tweak for new players coming in the update should make learning easier for the new players as they match up against their counterparts.  In the other matter, as said before, if they're was auto aim on my mouse I'd be a lot better.  Having played both, yes some things are easier with the mouse and some with the joystick.  The main reason I went back to M&K, aside from I'm just too amped to accurately aim with the stick, is that I can view the battle space easier when I'm in a dogfight.  I can't help but think the way the view follows where I'm going is more realistic than having to constantly select from six different views.  I'd love other opinions on the view thing from those more knowledgeable.

 

Now this is where I'll probably get fragged but I don't see the excitement factor for Warships.  Yes WWII ships are cool but playing on one plane, with no obstructions, sounds a little boring to me.  I'd rather just play battleship on the patio with a cold drink in my hand, but that's just me.

 

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Heibges #34 Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:27 AM

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What they should do is bring in groups of 60 playtesters, and run them through some tests with different Input Devices in very controlled tests.   None of these folks should EVER have played WoWp before.

 

15 Joystick vs 15 M/KB

15 M/KB vs 15 Gamepad

15 Joystick vs 15 Gamepad

 

Note - Just to be clear, this is two groups of 15 on M/KB.

All players should be using the same plane on the same map.

 

- All players need to be "experts" with their respective control schemes.

- Have each group play for 1 to 2 hours at Tier 1.

- Discussion and Questionaires.

- Have each group play for 1 to 2 hours at Tier 6.

- Discussion and Quesitonaires.

- Tabulate results in Excel. 

 

Based on results go back and make tweaks.

 

Rinse and repeat until Win % of all groups is around 50%.


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Lou #35 Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:45 AM

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Op, WOWP is not a SIM!

 

 

:trollface:

 

 



Sandman1969 #36 Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:04 AM

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View Postpetersleepy, on 17 February 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

Given that you play with 200 ping, I don't find it surprising that you think mouse+keyboard has a large advantage over joystick.

 

Here are the top 10 by win% on noobmeter:

  1. joystick
  2. joystick
  3. joystick
  4. mouse
  5. revo: drac guys help me on this one?
  6. don't know
  7. mouse
  8. joystick (I think)
  9. joystick
  10. xbox 360 controller

 

 

 

 

#8 is a mouse user. I know as he smashes enough mice. LOL



HEAVEYGEAR #37 Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:36 AM

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This is an arcade style game that can be used by both joystick and keyboard/mouse users.

The best of both worlds.

I play this with some joystick people and they are very good.

We have fun, that's what matters.

 




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F50ACE #38 Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:31 AM

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Oh you again. Isn't this the 2nd or 3rd thread you've made on this?

 

Also, could you please make you posts readable. Next to no one, myself included, is going to spend to time deciphering a wall of text that looks like a combination of Twitter and Facebook messages that looks like it's written on a phone!

 

There is a auto-aim mechanism, but it equally applies to Keyboard, Mouse, Joystick, and Game-pad Users. AKA No one control scheme has a auto-aim advantage.

 

There was a major auto-aim issue back in Open Beta and in some cases the bullets would make 25-45 degree curves. This made evasive combat useless.

 

If you have a ping rate over 100ms then you'll have a hard time aiming.

 

If you are making sharp sudden movements with your joystick you will have a hard time aiming. Mouse/Keyboard users have smoother controls which gives the illusion of them having a stronger auto-aim.

 

You chose to use joystick which means you're wanting full control of the plane with the least amount of computer-aided flying! Not every player knows how to fly a plane using joystick.

 

How many times must we tell you this isn't a Sim! It's a combination of arcade-like game-play with some simulated aircraft effects! I'm a Pilot in real life, and I know a thing or two how planes handle and they are far more forgiving here in this game than they are in real life with respect to flight models! Most planes are flown with a yoke, not a stick!

 

WG is marketing this game to the largest player-base which is mouse and keyboard users; however, unlike the competition, WG at least offers other control schemes that players can use like game-pads or joysticks.

 

Also, as much as you fuss about mouse/keyboard auto-aim, I'm beginning to think you either don't know how to evade enemy fire properly, or you put yourself into situations where you've lost all advantages. This is better known as Pilot Error.

 

If it's pilot error then please refer to here: All The Important Threads - Release Version!

 



ColOddball27 #39 Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:05 AM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 17 February 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:


and I have to commend u for flying ith keyboard as anew player ....because most players would quit....and im talking from a statiscal standpoint.....you have 326 battles...and you prove exactly what I have been saying about why people quit

Im at the point im going from tier 3 to 4 and I havent been playing very much and also I have a joystick but its from 1998 and it doesnt work with windows 7. :facepalm:



SeanPwnery #40 Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:08 AM

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I do feel this is kinda sad that I'm not being able to fully utilize my stick, throttle and rudder pedals as well.. I brought this up in Alpha ( even took a 7 day vacation for mentioning it publicly).

 

I've adapted to the mouse/keyboard for this game, but the lack of finesse the "real" controls give take a lot of the fun out of it and to be honest gives the mouse/kb user an advantage since it has so much easier assist to go along with it.

 

Like others have said though, this isn't fully a sim so there's only so much one can expect from this - I think this is why Aces High still has appeal. I've got to say, I've been giving Planes more attention lately to keep tanks from driving me crazy - and I find it more playable than the "competitor" title lately.






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