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US Tree Extension - Douglass and Bell Lines - now with pictures!

Douglas Martin Curtis tree line dive bomber GA Invader Bell Airacobra

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Demon93IT #21 Posted 11 February 2014 - 02:45 PM

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View PostRaindrops, on 11 February 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

There were six or so (B-25G/H, XTB2F-1, XA-38, XA-42, XP-71, and XP-58.) contemporary projects in the US with the 75mm either mounted or as a possible mounting. It was pretty popular in the attack role for its time, but people realized pretty quick that a 20mm will kill just as surely firing quicker and with higher velocity.

 

A change to the damage system may help alleviate the high-caliber problem, but considering how people like to single out the C6 as OP, I still doubt it'd be wise to give them too much ammunition.

 

Also, I'm not sure if the plane-mounted M3 M4 had an automatic/assisted loader or not. I'll have to check. I ran across the manual for the gun mount once, but don't think I bookmarked it. Found it.

Shell was about 600m/s, and weighs 893 pounds. There is no loading assistance mechanism, so fire rate is up to the loader.

 

Additional:

Spoiler

Shell is slow by aircraft standards, but the effective range is quite long, with the last bit putting it at 4.5 kilometers. Fire rate was about once every five seconds, or 12rpm.


12 rpm? Quite tank like as i suspected. You need to have a really good aim to even try to hit a plane with this because, if you miss, bye bye chance of hitting.



DracoArgentum #22 Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:06 AM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 11 February 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:


12 rpm? Quite tank like as i suspected. You need to have a really good aim to even try to hit a plane with this because, if you miss, bye bye chance of hitting.

 

If the rof is implemented correctly it'll only be useful as an anti ground weapon. Especially if autoaim is turned off like other GA weapons.



Demon93IT #23 Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:18 AM

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View PostDracoArgentum, on 12 February 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

 

If the rof is implemented correctly it'll only be useful as an anti ground weapon. Especially if autoaim is turned off like other GA weapons.


Well even against a GT you need to stay quite far away to fire at least a couple of shots. I don't think that this type of weapon would be so accurate that every shots would be a hit



DracoArgentum #24 Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:34 AM

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View PostDemon93IT, on 12 February 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:


Well even against a GT you need to stay quite far away to fire at least a couple of shots. I don't think that this type of weapon would be so accurate that every shots would be a hit

 

Personally I'd wait to get close and fire a single shot. Its really more like a reusable rocket than a gun IMO.



Demon93IT #25 Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:58 AM

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View PostDracoArgentum, on 12 February 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

 

Personally I'd wait to get close and fire a single shot. Its really more like a reusable rocket than a gun IMO.


If the target is soft enough to be destroyed in a single shot, some are more tough(and the rocket deals damage thank to the explosion, the cannon has to land on the target)



Raindrops #26 Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:30 PM

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New tree reflecting some of the changes thus far:

OP/Second post will be updated to match this, as time permits.

 

Banshees separated and paired with the Carrier line for the time being - Moonbat and VooDoo shelved until I have time to work with a new HF line.

Twin-engine line is now footed by the Shrike II - slightly slower than the XA-21, and with a more manageable bombload, and the A-12 Shrike (single-engine monoplane, bombs and 4x7.62s.) at tier two. Martin and Curtiss planes now with placeholders in the OP until I can get something together for them.

Swapped the Skypirate and Skyraider, and bumped up the Mixmasters and topped them with the XB-51. Starting the DB line with the XA-2, as despite the fact that the O-46 fits the Devastator, it's better to not punish players too much.

Not usre if we discussed the A4D Skyhawk much - the A4D-1 with the J65 maxed out around 1080kmh, setting it comfortably below the current top, unlike the Skyray did with its J-57. It only has a pair of 20s, but it has a 9900lb ordinance load of bombs and rockets. It could, like the earlier DBs, function as a fast strike-bomber and then double as a light fighter after hitting targets.

 

Model 1, XP-67, and VooDoo cut from the initial post:

 

Spoiler

McDonnell Model 1 and XP-67 also cut from the second post, but here's the modules just to keep them about:

 

Spoiler

Edited by Raindrops, 17 February 2014 - 10:33 PM.

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Demon93IT #27 Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:45 PM

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View PostRaindrops, on 17 February 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

New tree reflecting some of the changes thus far:

OP/Second post will be updated to match this, as time permits.

 

Banshees separated and paired with the Carrier line for the time being - Moonbat and VooDoo shelved until I have time to work with a new HF line.

Twin-engine line is now footed by the Shrike II - slightly slower than the XA-21, and with a more manageable bombload, and the A-12 Shrike (single-engine monoplane, bombs and 4x7.62s.) at tier two. Martin and Curtiss planes now with placeholders in the OP until I can get something together for them.

Swapped the Skypirate and Skyraider, and bumped up the Mixmasters and topped them with the XB-51. Starting the DB line with the XA-2, as despite the fact that the O-46 fits the Devastator, it's better to not punish players too much.

You will note that the Skyray is still in there - I do agree that it's too fast, but could be "nerfed" with its problematic J40 - but because it never flew with it, there are no figures for performance with that engine.  Another option is the A4D Skyhawk - the A4D-1 with the J65 maxed out around 1080kmh, setting it comfortably below the current top. It only has a pair of 20s, but it has a 9900lb ordinance load of bombs and rockets. It could, like the earlier DBs, function as a fast strike-bomber and then double as a light fighter after hitting targets.

 

Model 1, XP-67, and VooDoo cut from the initial post:

 

Spoiler

McDonnell Model 1 and XP-67 also cut from the second post, but here's the modules just to keep them about:

 

Spoiler


Really nice looking branches, good job! There's only a thing: Boston was the British codename, i guess it should be more correct codename it as A-20 Havoc. Other than that it's perfect :)



Raindrops #28 Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:28 PM

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Boston was smply the name of the DB7 in British service - it was neither the Havoc nor A-20 until the US officially picked it up later. It's use in this line was simply to help denote the split, but because the split was dropped in this line, I'll get that patched. :P

 

Not only that, but I notice I point out the Skyray, when I already replaced it with the Skyhawk. Need to do some quick fixes here... Also, XB-51 properly updated into both of the OPs.

 

That should look a bit better - hope to get the stats on the Curtiss planes up tonight as well.


Edited by Raindrops, 17 February 2014 - 10:34 PM.

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Demon93IT #29 Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:52 PM

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View PostRaindrops, on 17 February 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

Boston was smply the name of the DB7 in British service - it was neither the Havoc nor A-20 until the US officially picked it up later. It's use in this line was simply to help denote the split, but because the split was dropped in this line, I'll get that patched. :P

 

Not only that, but I notice I point out the Skyray, when I already replaced it with the Skyhawk. Need to do some quick fixes here... Also, XB-51 properly updated into both of the OPs.

 

That should look a bit better - hope to get the stats on the Curtiss planes up tonight as well.


True but it could be confusing the Brits designation under US markings, just that :)

 

In any case you did a nice job, i'm looking foward to see those branch in action(it would take quite some time but still)



MBR_Skyrunner #30 Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:10 PM

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You're forgetting the Dauntless dive bombers. They were the very first American planes to hit the Japanese forces at Midway.

 

Sadly most of them were shot down by A6M2 Zeroes.


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Demon93IT #31 Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:16 PM

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View PostMBR_Skyrunner, on 19 February 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

You're forgetting the Dauntless dive bombers. They were the very first American planes to hit the Japanese forces at Midway.

 

Sadly most of them were shot down by A6M2 Zeroes.


They are present in the single engine branch(tier IV), he hasn't forgotten them :)



Raindrops #32 Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:40 AM

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Indeed - fourth paragraph in the "Douglass" spoiler in the first post, and currently the sixth down in the second post. Top configuration is a pair of .50s forward, a twin .30 turret to the rear, and a 1600 and pair of 325lb bombs.

 

But yes, currently a tier four candidate between the Devastator and the Destroyer prototype.


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Demon93IT #33 Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:35 AM

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Seems like that the F2H would be a tier IX heavy with the F-90 on top and the F7F below(very logical i may say).

 

http://forum.worldof...ters-is-coming/



Raindrops #34 Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:26 PM

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Oh, hey! Finally some more tidbits on heavies!

 

Looks like tier five/six Lightning, then F7F, and XF-90 as ten is a given... But F2H as a nine? It'd be a bummer to miss out on the others in the series. I find their setup odd in general, as Lockheed had the Hudson/Ventura which could extend the line lower, and a permutation of the Lightning could easily take tier seven as well. (Though the F7F is a nice plane.)

 

In the tier nine speed bracket I only have a couple other planes that could take its place though - the XP-79B (whch is too lightly armed) and the Skynight, (which did not mount missiles until the F3D-2M) which is slightly slower than the Banshee but with similar guns and 1000lbs more ordinance.

(Despite being Douglas, the Skynight is also currently floating free due to the more recent shuffling of the twin-engine GAs in this thread.)

 

If this doesn't change before the HF line reaches us though, I'd guess the F2H-2 and F2H-4 will be represented in the same aircraft, the FH-1 becomes a high-tier premium, and the Model 40 proposal just vanishes outright.


Edited by Raindrops, 24 February 2014 - 05:28 PM.

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Demon93IT #35 Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:31 PM

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View PostRaindrops, on 24 February 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Oh, hey! Finally some more tidbits on heavies!

 

Looks like tier five/six Lightning, then F7F, and XF-90 as ten is a given... But F2H as a nine? It'd be a bummer to miss out on the others in the series. I find their setup odd in general, as Lockheed had the Hudson/Ventura which could extend the line lower, and a permutation of the Lightning could easily take tier seven as well. (Though the F7F is a nice plane.)

 

In the tier nine speed bracket I only have a couple other planes that could take its place though - the XP-79B (whch is too lightly armed) and the Skynight, (which did not mount missiles until the F3D-2M) which is slightly slower than the Banshee but with similar guns and 1000lbs more ordinance.

(Despite being Douglas, the Skynight is also currently floating free due to the more recent shuffling of the twin-engine GAs in this thread.)

 

If this doesn't change before the HF line reaches us though, I'd guess the F2H-2 and F2H-4 will be represented in the same aircraft, the FH-1 becomes a high-tier premium, and the Model 40 proposal just vanishes outright.


Yeah, it's a shame since the FH family can easily make a branch of their own.



Raindrops #36 Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:29 PM

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Found some images of Dauntlesses mounting twin .50 gunpods. Bit of updating to incorporate this - suddenly the Dauntless looks scary as a tier four.

<a href='http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Dauntless%20SBD/SBDGUNPODS_zps8bedc041.jpg' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://i1002.photobu...zps8bedc041.jpg</a>

Also looking into rocket-armed Dauntlesses - rockets were rarely used, because they didn't work well with the dive flaps, but it seems that eight or so FFARs were used on the wings at points. (I've see three or four different mounting methods so far as well.)

Image

 

 

Also: Split the second post into lines, added placeholders. Also rebuilding the A-20 - here's the original module split for the DB-7 and A-20:

Spoiler

I'm dropping the DB-7 in entirity at the moment, and slimming down the A-20 proper, so a lot of these modules will be lost. O-46 is similarly edited out for now.

Spoiler

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Wing_Commander_Zero #37 Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:31 AM

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I had been looking at American GAs on wiki. I was about to post a thread about them and a proposed line.

Raindrops #38 Posted 12 March 2014 - 03:57 PM

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Any progress on that there Commander? I'm curious as to what you were looking at.

 

As for this thread, just went through with some minor updates/corrections in what I have now. Hope to add a few plane module setups soon, but I can't make any promises. On a side note, I did stumble across the Northop XP-61E the other night - a modification of the P-61 Back Widow, it removed the radar and completely redesigned the crew pod, nixing the turret for the additional 4x.50s in the nose. Only two were made, one crashed, and one became the basis for the F-15 Reporter photorecon plane. Intended to be an escort fighter, it lost out to the well-known Twin Mustang. Though little is known about the E model, the following F-15 was considerably faster, and the frame/armament changes may make it an interesting plane in its own rights. (Also, don't take the retention of the 20mms as absolute truth - I'm not sure if the E kept them.)

 

A potential P-61 > XP-61E > F-82 sub-line could be an interesting bridge between various lines - Douglas and North American, North American and Lockheed, Douglas and Lockheed, etc. Of course, while P-61 > F-82 could be interesting, (and surprisingly historic) each could be used as bridges between different lines as well - North American and Lockheed for the F-82 and a potential Douglas to Lockheed for the P-61, allowing a mid-tier switch between GA and HF play.

 

Anyways, just food for thought. Have a pic of the XP-61E:

<a href='http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy210/Ryan_Crierie/XP-61E-1.jpg' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://i792.photobuc...ie/XP-61E-1.jpg</a>

Another option for a P-61 to F-82 mini-line is the Hughes D-2. An ambitious twin-boom project, it didn't live up to claims and ended up becoming the XF-11 recon prototype.

 

Also, I need to figure out how to change the name of this thread, as it's steadily expanding beyond the original intents...

 

Edit: Mixmaster/Jetmaster updated, the twin-engine line is complete. (for now.) Thinking on the XB-43 some more - thinking that due to the limited modules (one engine and a "cosmetic" airframe change) and possible lack of bomb/gun combo (see the entry in the second post) it may be better suited for a premium role, with the Skynight taking its place.

...Though a tier nine premium...nng...

 

Also, nice pictures of the XB-42 here: http://blog.seattlep...y-for-the-b-29/

Take a look at the XB-42A with the added Westinghouse engines.

You can also see the wing-mounted defensive .50s in a couple shots.


Edited by Raindrops, 12 March 2014 - 07:40 PM.

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Raindrops #39 Posted 24 March 2014 - 05:20 AM

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Couple small edits - added rockets to the Havoc and a couple small changes.  Was looking at the McDonnell F3H Demon, and while the F3H-2 would not work with its missiles and 1150kmh top speed, the F3H-1N with its troubled engines may work as another tier ten contender. (1010kmh, 4x20mm, 6000lb ordinance.)

 

Now then, let's talk Banshees. I've input modules into the second post, but looking at the speeds again, this is a tricky line. The Phantom would be among the fastest tier eights, (decidedly too fast for seven, where I have it now.) but bears a weak armament in exchange. If we were to put it as an eight, then the following F2H-2 Banshee would be almost OP at tier nine - if not completely OP - with the best speed in tier. Its quartet of 20s isn't necessarily exceptional at this tier either, but the speed unmatched by any and the ability to mount bombs if you get bored makes it a terrifying prospect. For comparison, the fastest and slowest nines are the La160 and J7W2, at 938 and 810kmh, respectively. The F2H-2 travels at 945kmh.

...But bumping them up from what I had before leaves the F2H-4 at tier ten, which only saw a 5% speed increase from earlier models - 992.25 - which, with exception of the IL-40P, makes it the slowest plane at tier.

 

If this is deemed insufficient, one option is still to use the Model 40. Basically the 262 HG series for the Banshee, the model 40 proposals were of swept-wing arrangements for the Banshee, with intent to increase performance.  In the end they lost out to the F7U, but may provide a way to improve the Banshee for tier ten.  (Although I could only guess as to how much the streamlining would improve the aircraft.)

Three Model 40 designs, excerpt from McDonnell Naval Jet Fighters: Selected Proposals and Mock-up Reports, 1945-1957

 

So what are your opinions on the Banshees? How should they be tiered? How should they end? Is there a use for the Demon? Should the Demon top off the Banshees?


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Raindrops #40 Posted 11 April 2014 - 11:39 PM

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Well, it's official this time - F2H is the new tier nine HF.  This pretty much takes an axe to the Model 40 proposals and the FH Phantom. (Especially since the latter would be too good for a premium.)

 

But how does it stack up against what I posted last time? Let's take a look, shall we...

As you can see, it starts with the Westinghouse J34-GE-22 and ends with the -34, covering the entire engine lineage of the F2H. The upgraded guns as well (Mk.12 Hispanos) mark the elite version to be the F2H-4 I had placed at the top of the line. I am surprised there is no airframe upgrade however, as a lot of little changes were applied throughout the F2H's lineage.

In addition, we do see the Banshee carrying 4x250lb bombs or 5" HVARs. As such, the Banshee should still maintain the multi-funtionality I declared it would have - we'll see how well it plays out though.

 

Also: New updates to the lines. Leaving the Banshee line up for the moment, but it's due to come down/be replaced in time. F3D now put in place of the Jetmaster, due to module availability, hopefully I'll have the module listings for those to switched out tonight. Swapped out. Here's the Jetmaster's module block:

 

Spoiler

While the F3D does have additional modules in the form of three engines and a pair of airframes before it became missile-armed, the fact it only had two external hard points does make it an odd bird in a line practically made of carpet bombers.  It will at least hold the line until I find a better replacement, however.

 

Also made a quick fix to the Mixmaster's ordinance modules - it could carry 4x2000lb bombs, rather than just the 2x2000 I had listed.  It also apparently could carry a 8000lb bomb with the bay doors slightly opened. (5")


Edited by Raindrops, 12 April 2014 - 12:28 AM.

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