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anti keyboard+mouse diatribe!


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MrPsychic #61 Posted 28 January 2014 - 01:15 AM

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If you take product A and design it for something 100% of your target market has, or product B that is designed for say...20-30% of the target market, then force the majority to buy a peripheral, which is going to do better?


Tonzzo #62 Posted 28 January 2014 - 03:01 PM

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:izmena:Now you gone and done it!!!!!!  MrPsychic is using common sense!  This can only end badly. 


 


Telexis #63 Posted 28 January 2014 - 03:38 PM

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my two cent worth( if it's even worth that) is, in my personal opinion, key board and mouse, yes it's easier to hit a target. I started out playing this game using a k-m combo but it just didn't feel right to me, come on really? using a mouse to fly a plane, even though it's easier to aim and fire with a mouse and I did get more hits on enemy targets when I used a mouse, but come on, a mouse? I went out a bought my extreme 3D pro joystick, I'm able to maneuver my plane a whole heck of a lot better, no more point and go, I have to actually fly my plane :-) . I did however have to give up the mouse accuracy for the joy stick inaccuracy. I now have to anticipate as to where the enemy plane has to be and fire, hopefully he would be there and I'll get a hit. if not then I'm toast. yes WG is leaning towards K-M combo, they say it's more of an arcade type of game then a sim. We joystick users are desperately trying to turn it into a sim game against all of WG wishes. Unless WG supports the joystick and makes it more stable in the game we will always have this problem with aiming, we just have to anticipate as to where the enemy is going to be and be lucky enough to get a hit. well anyway that's what I see and it's my own personal opinion, I could be wrong, but I am hitting more enemy targets this, I don't really go by the little red circle as much anymore, just use it as a guide, I find myself aiming more in front of it and keeping the guns pegged until the enemy plane flies into a hail of bullets, repeat, repeat, over over again until either I get a kill( very rare) or someone else kills them ( over 99.99999% percent of the time). peace, see you in the skies.

 

oh PS I'm no longer such an easy target, the big red bullseye on my back is getting smaller and smaller, harder to see lol lol lol



Heibges #64 Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:28 PM

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Does WG have stats on what Control Scheme is being used?  If so, they can just look at their telemetry and tell KPI by Control Scheme.

 

But in a third person shooter generally...

 

- Mouse/Keyboard should have no aim assist

- Joystick should have a little bit of aim assist.

- Gamepad should have a little bit more aim assist.

 

In most games "aim assist" will either be stickiness of the reticule or size of accuracy cone.


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CptMyers #65 Posted 30 January 2014 - 12:40 AM

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Not sure what OP is actually complaining about because it seems to me that it goes from "jerky joystick controls" to "K+M users have auto-aim" to "not enough people playing". However, I use a M+K and i think i do pretty well. I flight up with friends who use joysticks and they do pretty well. There is no auto-aim for mouse and keyboard, and people will quickly join the game because there are ads everywhere for it. I think that the OP is not sure what hes upset with and is complaining for the sake of complaining. If you reply to this please make a coherent statement without putting "..." after every 5th word. 

Tabakki #66 Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:09 AM

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Let me start by saying that i use a $150.00 Saitek X52 pro stick. It may be that a higher end stick simply performs better than a 30 dollar one. It makes sense, they probably use higher quality pots which result in smoother controls. I started out playing this with K M. It was easier to aim, but at the cost of fine control over your aircraft. I did some looking around in the forums and found a post on configuring your joystick controls. I found that a 3% dead zone with a "s curve" on the sensitivity (less sensitivity near center, more as you near full extention )did the trick.

 

Don't get me wrong...it still took tons of practice to get used to playing with the stick. I can now aim pretty well. There is no "jerkyness" as you describe it. If you want terrible jerky stick control, try Warthunder...it's terrible with a stick.

 

The main drawback with using a stick is the lack of freelook in turning fights. This can be compensated for by training yourself to use the radar, and aquiring a feel for where the enemy is. Again, it takes time and practice.

 

The K M is far easier to use in the beginning, but saying that uber pilots are abusing it just doesn't seem legit. With a stick, I can out turn planes that i shouldnt be able to by using fine control on the throttle and flaps...it just takes practice to get good.

 

My stats went down after I switched, but I am now at a level where i get 2-3 kills per game pretty commonly...which is pretty much where I was before I switched.

 

Bottom line there is nothing wrong with the stick controls in the game, they just have a steeper learning curve than the K M.



SkyWolf__WM #67 Posted 30 January 2014 - 10:14 AM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 21 January 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

and I know a lot of people are sick of me harping on this.....fine..

 

 

I'm sick of you "harping" on everything.


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Toggle #68 Posted 30 January 2014 - 12:11 PM

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Arthur, has anyone given you help on setting up your joystick to get the best use out of it?  Is your JS operating properly?  Twice now during testing and recently after open my game had been falling off only to realize later it was a gunked up movement sensor on my controller.  A good way to check this is either in joystick calibration or in game look at the axis movement box under the curve, see if any of the buttons are bouncing or wandering. Check again while applying some downward pressure on the stick.  If you see any of the buttons bouncing or wandering, you have a bad movement sensor on the stick.  A common problem with Logitech extreme 3D pro's but I've seen it in others.

 

Keep in mind using a joystick has advantages and disadvantages just like there are advantages and disadvantages to every airplane you fly in the game.  So you'll need to fly to those advantages for wins.  You will not out turn a mouse user in a similar plane.  So don't get into turn fights with planes with similar turn radii.  BnZ might be more to your liking with a joystick,  maneuver fight but avoid the circle of death, or if you must turn fight, fly planes with the best turn radius listed to limit the planes that have that advantage over you.

 

View Postfrankndeath, on 21 January 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Peter would you mind posting a screen cap of the curve you use please

some comparison would be realy helpfull

 

View Postpetersleepy, on 21 January 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Spoiler

 


Frankn, be aware the curve for different joysticks vary considerably.  The curve for my CH stick started at the default at base but at the top was about 3 points left or more the responsive side.  My Logitech starts 1.5 points low on the base of the curve and ends 2 points high at the top.  I was talking to a friend that has a older Logitech that is bowed 6 points from the right and six points from the bottom.  That barely moves my plane through the middle of the sticks throw.  I also found swapping out my twist rudder for my CH rudder pedals affected my sticks curve.  Also when deactivating the throttle and rudder to use JS/KB control (WSAD boost idle, rudder left and right) changed the curve again.  This made the controller very weak, while the most responsive was the JS/Pedals. 

 



Arthur_Dayne #69 Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:19 PM

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View Postpetersleepy, on 27 January 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

"If I'm failing, it must be the joystick controls" -arthurdayne2k14

nah im happy with my winrate flying moostly solo... the last time I saw u... u were in a hawk 75M  with two of the top pilots also in hawk 75ms   in your flight.... tier III match...   iif there is anyone failing...its you.....don't make me post a screenshoot of your awesomeness... bawk bawk bawk chicken to fly solo top tier? 70% is nothing when u fly with the best pilots ALL day and in thhe best plane for youru tier....your probably a 50% pilot at best solo



Arthur_Dayne #70 Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:26 PM

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View PostHamboneDeluxe, on 24 January 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

I think what he is getting at here is that it is WAY easier to keep locked on target with a mouse. Having tried the KB+M controls, I must say there really isn't much skill involved in regards to controlling the aircraft while having to fire. Essentially just point the mouse where you want to go/aim, and the control surfaces do everything on their own, with only having to click to fire. Great for entry-level players. But hey! That's what tier 1 is there for!

 

At the beginning of the alpha stage, I used a joystick .I found that, to an experienced flight game player (I played MS Combat Flight Simulator 3 since Christ was a cowboy), the game handled quite well. However, there is still loads more to focus on in terms of control while aiming/shooting a target than someone using a mouse would have to worry about.

 

Unfortunately, my joystick has since passed away during a tight bank to the left. They never even let me crash, instead peppering me with cannon fire while my plane spun out of control, and blowing me up just before I hit the ground lol! I have been forced to use my PS3 controller for now, with controls reminiscent of Iron Aces for the Dreamcast. Still very enjoyable and fluent, yet the same result. You have to manually control everything yourself, not just point in a direction with your mouse, and let everything control itself. Simply put, there is a lot more going on in your brain, and far more skill is being used!

 

This will never change. Wargaming understandably needs a KB+M layout so EVERYONE can play. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy a decent joystick. Myself, I have 3 other mouths to feed so buying a decent joystick (I'm not interested in a cheap one) is certainly out of the question at the moment. But at least I still use a controller!

 

So yes! In comparison, a KB+M hardly requires any skill at all as opposed to a joystick/gamepad. It is unfortunate, yet inevitable, that it MUST be this way. Let's face it. At least 75% of the play community uses the KB+M setup. If it weren't for them, the skies would be quite void of aircraft!

this argument keeps coming up that everyone has a keybpard so it must be so... my argguement is that is too hard to use a keybpard until u fly many many matches....WG pull some folks off the street...see how well they can fly keyboard...they cant....and so it is here they DONT play...your arguemnet is everyone has a keyboard...BUT they donnt play and if they do they quit...but u keep insisting everyone that everyone has a keyboard.... I beg you...I beg you if everyone has a keyboard wwhy are they trying the ga,e and quitting....easy..because this is a joystick game NOT a keyboard game....So 97% of the tankers WILL NOOT adapt to this game....it is NOT a keyboard game....the insistence that 'everyone has a keyboard" and "im not gonna spend 40 bucks on a stick'.....is the real fallacy.....what going on is that people with stick are not playing this game.....and as for everyone has a keybooardd? WE KNOW THEIR NOT PLAYING  . just becayse everyone has one dooes not mean its the right input device or tht it will ever wwork....Everyone drives a car it doesn't mean if u put that car in the Indy 500 your gonna win with your Nissan versa more than this game will gro pop by saying everyone has a keyboard...and this has already been proven by pop numbers...inn fact its thhe wrong device


Edited by Arthur_Dayne, 30 January 2014 - 03:31 PM.


F50ACE #71 Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:31 PM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 30 January 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

nah im happy with my winrate flying moostly solo... the last time I saw u... u were in a hawk 75M  with two of the top pilots also in hawk 75ms   in your flight.... tier III match...   iif there is anyone failing...its you.....don't make me post a screenshoot of your awesomeness... bawk bawk bawk chicken to fly solo top tier? 70% is nothing when u fly with the best pilots ALL day and in thhe best plane for youru tier....your probably a 50% pilot at best solo


Let me stop you right there. Posting a screencap of someone in the nature you're describing is Namimg/Shaming. Also, if you think that you're better than someone, challenge them to a 1v1.

 

Also, before you start saying someone that is in the top 50 is only a 50% pilot, I suggest you do so after you can maintain something other than the server average.



Arthur_Dayne #72 Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:41 PM

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View PostHeibges, on 29 January 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

 

View PostMrPsychic, on 28 January 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

If you take product A and design it for something 100% of your target market has, or product B that is designed for say...20-30% of the target market, then force the majority to buy a peripheral, which is going to do better?

for tanks and warships...u want to design for keyboard...which reaches 100% of the target market.. for planes.. u need to target the 20-30% because keyboard users will not fly planes over tanks or warships.. MEANING you have 1600-2000 primetime...not the 50k tanks has therefore designing for something everyone has is in theory good bt in some cases like flight games...you need to design for a stick otherwise...u get a very very very very low player base..im not talking about neerfing keyboard im more talkiggn about tighting up stick controls and aim....to equal mosue aim.....your thought process is WRONG based on the number of people playing.....flight games are niche games...they r way harder than...ground and sea based games.....therefore u do want to target that 20 to 30% instead of the 100% but get them ALL they don't have a joystick for nothing....because your not going to get the vast majority... some 99.999%  (1 in 10000) of the tankers...with keyboard to play planes with a keyboard...so even tho they have a keyboard and are 100% of the market....they dont play...they ARE NOT playing...they r not converting over from tanks..and they wont..because THAT is a keyboard game...planes is NOT.......... and no matter how hard u scream everyone has a keyboard....that wont make them play tanks.... its like everyone has a key in their pocket...but that doesn't mean your key will work with my car...


Edited by Arthur_Dayne, 02 February 2014 - 09:59 PM.


Arthur_Dayne #73 Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:43 PM

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View PostCaptain_F22ACE, on 30 January 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:


Let me stop you right there. Posting a screencap of someone in the nature you're describing is Namimg/Shaming. Also, if you think that you're better than someone, challenge them to a 1v1.

 

Also, before you start saying someone that is in the top 50 is only a 50% pilot, I suggest you do so after you can maintain something other than the server average.

there is no such thing as server average... when stats for flights are not seperaated from stats for solo play...im not a good pilot at all...and if I was I wwouldnt be out pounding noobs all day with glee....thinking my 70% winrate actualy meant anything in fact veryoen in the top 50 is purely based on flights judeing from the names there...not one has played 80% of their matches solo...and dare I say most ae 80% flighted so their data is skewed....unless u think....that solo with out the crutch flight these players are still 70%.....then I got some ocean front poperty in Arizona for u


Edited by Arthur_Dayne, 30 January 2014 - 03:45 PM.


petersleepy #74 Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:10 PM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 30 January 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

nah im happy with my winrate flying moostly solo... the last time I saw u... u were in a hawk 75M  with two of the top pilots also in hawk 75ms   in your flight.... tier III match...   iif there is anyone failing...its you.....don't make me post a screenshoot of your awesomeness... bawk bawk bawk chicken to fly solo top tier? 70% is nothing when u fly with the best pilots ALL day and in thhe best plane for youru tier....your probably a 50% pilot at best solo

I haven't played the hawk 75. Try again. 


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Ok, hate to bring this up, but please make your replies a little more readable.

 

   Server average is around 50% and that includes solo and some flighted players. Being flighted doesn't mean a auto-win in the 60+% win-rate area. Need I say how many flights I see get trashed in the 1st minutes of several games? There's noobs in all tiers. I fly in tier 6 and 7 a lot lately, and I come up against several skilled pilots in most matches. WOWP is meant to be a Team Game, not a 1v15 game. Granted, I've seen some players who fly solo more than 80% of their matches, and get around a 70% win-rate. Flights encourage teamwork, and judging from your comment this should be nothing more than a solo combat game, which isn't happening. Having solo and flighted stats would be nice, but players are still going to want to fly together.

 

   I'm glad you got "oceanfront" property in AZ, shame it doesn't line up with reality, as does the reality of this game. Also, you're starting to look more like someone that always has to rage about something and won't listen to any advice. Keep in mind that I fly with one of the most complex joystick setups in this game that being the X52.



Telexis #76 Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:47 PM

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Tabakki, can you post pic of your joystick cofigs?  I would like to see how your s curves looks like, going to change my dead zones from 11-12% to 3% just see if it works for me, I'm always tweeking my joystick controls to try and get it smoother.... Thanks in advance

HamboneDeluxe #77 Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:22 PM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 30 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

this argument keeps coming up that everyone has a keybpard so it must be so... my argguement is that is too hard to use a keybpard until u fly many many matches....WG pull some folks off the street...see how well they can fly keyboard...they cant....and so it is here they DONT play...your arguemnet is everyone has a keyboard...BUT they donnt play and if they do they quit...but u keep insisting everyone that everyone has a keyboard.... I beg you...I beg you if everyone has a keyboard wwhy are they trying the ga,e and quitting....easy..because this is a joystick game NOT a keyboard game....So 97% of the tankers WILL NOOT adapt to this game....it is NOT a keyboard game....the insistence that 'everyone has a keyboard" and "im not gonna spend 40 bucks on a stick'.....is the real fallacy.....what going on is that people with stick are not playing this game.....and as for everyone has a keybooardd? WE KNOW THEIR NOT PLAYING  . just becayse everyone has one dooes not mean its the right input device or tht it will ever wwork....Everyone drives a car it doesn't mean if u put that car in the Indy 500 your gonna win with your Nissan versa more than this game will gro pop by saying everyone has a keyboard...and this has already been proven by pop numbers...inn fact its thhe wrong device

 

Firstly, everyone DOES have a keyboard. It's a pre-requisite of operating the computer. Hence why they made controls for KB+M, so everyone can play.  Also, I agree with you that this is NOT a KB+M game. Aircraft control surfaces are simply not designed to be operated by a keyboard, hence the over-simplified controls. People are trying the game and quitting because it's not for everyone. They tried with KB+M, joystick, or controller, and didn't like it because it just wasn't their thing, and never tried again. I certainly agree that just because everyone has KB+M, it does not mean it's the right input device. But it works well enough so everyone can have an opportunity to at least taste the game. Just like your example of a Nissan Versa at the Indy 500. Certainly not the right vehicle for competition, but you could, in theory, take it out on the track for a drive. Most of the WoWP audience stemmed from WoT, according to a statement I read long ago during aplha testing, but don't quote me on that. I am totally unsure of the accuracy of it, nor can I dig up a source. 

 

Let's just make this plain and simple, in order to cancel out further argument. The game is the way it is. There is nothing that can be done about it. Regardless of input method, people will choose to either play, or not play. It's a matter of personal preference. People using KB+M will not be the deciding factor of whether I play or not, nor should it be yours. Have fun and enjoy the gift that Wargaming has given us, a free-to-play shoot em up in the sky! If other people are playing the way they want in a MMO game, and that bothers you, then you are in the wrong genre. People must learn to see past these shortcomings, play how THEY want, in the input method of their choice. Stand up to the challenge, if not to be a better player than them, then to simply enjoy the game more than they do!

 

*NOTE* I just wanted to add a cool fact. I have been using MotionJoy DS3 Tool to operate my PS3 controller via USB (there is also bluetooth support, but it's irritating to have to re-pair it with the PS3 all the time) and hence I have the Sixaxis motion control feature. I usually run the controller in xbox360 emulated mode for compatibility reasons, however it is possible, with about a half hour of configuring, to use the motion control to operate the X/Y axis instead of thumbsticks, using the L2 and R2 buttons for Z axis (they are analogue!). Tilt control is certainly fascinating, and worth trying out!


Edited by HamboneDeluxe, 30 January 2014 - 06:56 PM.

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Heibges #78 Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:48 PM

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Arthur, they are not really looking to convert all these tankers.  That is like stealing from Peter to pay Paul.

 

They want players from League of Legends, DOTA2, Call of Duty, Battlefield, Combat Arts, Sudden Attack, etc. etc. etc.  All these at KB/M.

 

Not counting Rockband/Guitar Hero, video games that require a special controller have been dismal failures.   There is no way a large company can make money on flightsims.  Thirdwire is like 5 people, and although their games are fun, they are very Plain Jane.

 

If you want a flight sim,  there are still a lot of folks playing IL-2 Sturmovick, and the "Wings Over" series from Thirdwire.  Everyone will have joysticks, pedals, throttles and trackIR over there.


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Not_Primetime #79 Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:23 PM

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I Agree with the suggestion that there should be a joystick sensitivity control.  I don't use the joystick I gave up on configuring to work with this game.  I use the mouse.

 

As for the OP I have no clue what his deal is other than to say this.

 

CAUTION!!!  Tinfoil Hat Area!!!!!

 

 



Arthur_Dayne #80 Posted 02 February 2014 - 10:00 PM

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View Postpetersleepy, on 30 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

I haven't played the hawk 75. Try again.

um.......hmmmmm  let me check.... your right.. apologize it wasn't you....


Edited by Arthur_Dayne, 02 February 2014 - 10:01 PM.





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