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anti keyboard+mouse diatribe!


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xMADDMANNx #41 Posted 22 January 2014 - 09:32 PM

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View Postsfprankster, on 21 January 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

 

Joysticks are a very small niche market. For WG to focus resources, time and energy into such a small percentage of the overall gamer population will not contribute to any major growth in this game's population. If there was a substantial market for joysticks, don't you believe most stores would have a dedicated shelf space, at eye level, for the consumer to readily make purchases? Rather than the current, bottom shelf, single item on display, if anything at all.

 

This being a Free 2 Play game, the development team has to decide on how much to spend/limit resources on a small niche market or to target the masses.

I know lets say over 50 people who all fly joystick and most of them have 180$ rudder pedals to go with that 200$ flight stick if not a 100$ cheeper sticks (hotas high end) mosly *i fly X45.

This is usual gear for a flight sim pilot who plays Cliffs of dover as well other flight simulation's. vid cards 600 series and over and gaming CPU's (and dont say ask them here they would never play it they rather pure Simulation to arcade. its there call) Simluation players put there $$$ where there hobby is spending alot on gear due to its a passion most times for them.

 

The arcade nature of this game lets people play via mouse and keyboard lower end graphics and CPu's thats it.. the game here is made to feel arcade.. fly arcade, and provide controls that are easy for 1st time pilot's. this is the game your playing no need to invest in flight gear no need to learn what will take days or weeks in other games. this is the  drop your quarter and get twisting game. so most people who play this game have no want or reason to have joysticks they are here for quick fun and dont want to add cost to a free game.

 



Tonzzo #42 Posted 22 January 2014 - 09:49 PM

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If you are of the mind set that Mouse / Keyboard, Keyboard or even Stick is easier to fly.  USE IT.  Is Keyboard realistic? NO...  Is Mouse realistic? NO....  Also not to crush the Stick flyers dreams of being Fighter Aces but just because its a Stick doesn't make it realistic.  There is no realistic force feedback.  There is no realistic response to improper input....  IE flat spins. Un-movable sticks in Un- recoverable dives and so on.....  If you honestly feel as though using a mouse gives you "auto aim" or GOD MODE then simply cry "Thank Ya Jesus!" "Praise da Lord!"..... 


 


Messerchantz #43 Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:30 PM

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Keyboard (well pc gamepad which is basically a little small arrangement of keybaord buttons plus a thumb stick) and mouse user here.

 

I have a flight stick.. it's still in the closet. I dont understand the OP's point. He says kb+mouse failed but I don't see why.. I control mine quite comfortably.

 

I can't comment on the joystick users experience beyond saying clearly some people have their configured well.. talk to them. Share your setup/config so they can help you get your controls lined up better.


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triptyx #44 Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:56 PM

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View PostxMADDMANNx, on 22 January 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

I know lets say over 50 people who all fly joystick and most of them have 180$ rudder pedals to go with that 200$ flight stick if not a 100$ cheeper sticks (hotas high end) mosly *i fly X45.

This is usual gear for a flight sim pilot who plays Cliffs of dover as well other flight simulation's. vid cards 600 series and over and gaming CPU's (and dont say ask them here they would never play it they rather pure Simulation to arcade. its there call) Simluation players put there $$$ where there hobby is spending alot on gear due to its a passion most times for them.

 

The arcade nature of this game lets people play via mouse and keyboard lower end graphics and CPu's thats it.. the game here is made to feel arcade.. fly arcade, and provide controls that are easy for 1st time pilot's. this is the game your playing no need to invest in flight gear no need to learn what will take days or weeks in other games. this is the  drop your quarter and get twisting game. so most people who play this game have no want or reason to have joysticks they are here for quick fun and dont want to add cost to a free game.

 

 

Sure, I have a $300 yoke, rudder pedal, and throttle quadrant setup I use for simming, but for WoWp I use a $30 Logitech Extreme 3d Pro, and before that I used a 15 year old Sidewinder joystick with a COM to USB dongle on it.  While I support mouse and keyboard modes for the game, it's disingenuous to claim that one must spend hundreds of dollars to use a stick of some sort.



slayergrass #45 Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:46 PM

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View PostBitterClinger, on 21 January 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

This secret video evidence is proof Mouse Auto Aim exists!!!!!!!

 

 

 


hey hey   BitterClinger, Where can I find that voice activated auto aim addon?  :popcorn:

SG



BitterClinger #46 Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:38 PM

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View Postslayergrass, on 23 January 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:


hey hey   BitterClinger, Where can I find that voice activated auto aim addon?  :popcorn:

SG

 

That information is G-14 Classified.  :glasses:



uncorked #47 Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:16 PM

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OP, I feel your pain. I bought a new Logitech just for this game cause I had given my old one to my grandson. I love it.

I trulyhope  you have tried all of the adjustments available in game. Try one more. Don't use the #1 button for fireing. I changed mine to #12.

I found it really helps my staying on-target.

 Unfortunatly the lag does not help, forcing me to use k+m. I also changed the keys to a better grouping for myself. I borrowed a suggestion from another player, and use the space bar for firiing.

Good luck, and if you ever start using k+m instead of Logitech, welcome aboard!



armydoc83 #48 Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:45 AM

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I think I can shed some light on any notions of autoaim with a mouse.  I've played sims ever since X-Wing for DOS, through TIE Fighter, Warbirds, Jane's WWII, through IL-2.  I started out using a mouse and keyboard and finally used a stick with keyboard (couldn't fly a Y-Wing without one).  While using a mouse had me slamming my desk repeatedly to continue turning during a close in fight, it was vastly superior when it became necessary to do pinpoint shooting at a distant target.  This all has to do with simple ergonomics.  The mouse detects movement based off of a device cupped in your palm in a way that allows efficient use of grip, fine wrist movement, and hand eye coordination.

 

The stick on the other hand puts a third party in between the movement of your hand and the input sensor in the form of the base of the stick.  Your hand is also in a suboptimal position of using more fore and upper arm movement instead of the finer muscles of the hand that allows more precision movement.  You do however gain the ability to have a constant input signal which is the one real advantage the stick has over the mouse.  Given WoWP's control scheme in which you look and the plane automatically moves to where you point, that advantage is largely minimized.

 

The free look function is something I feel would be a hindrance when using the stick as well.  Playing IL-2, I'd keep the mouse nearby to look around the cockpit because the hat on top of my Wingman was too inaccurate a method to use on the fly and pushing a button to use the stick to look around would take away flight control and get me killed.

 

I personally think that if WG were to focus on an alternate control method, they should work on gamepads instead of sticks.  A dual control pad would allow players to use free look with one stick, fly with the other, while still having enough input devices to have most other game functions within reach.  Control would be based off the thumb, increasing ergonomics to just shy of that of the mouse, and you'd still maintain the constant input signal of a stick.  From a business sense, this would also cast a wider net because I would bet the farm that more people own a USB capable gamepad than a stick that can only be used on PC games.



PrettyWoods #49 Posted 24 January 2014 - 08:31 AM

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View Postarmydoc83, on 23 January 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

I think I can shed some light on any notions of autoaim with a mouse.  I've played sims ever since X-Wing for DOS, through TIE Fighter, Warbirds, Jane's WWII, through IL-2.  I started out using a mouse and keyboard and finally used a stick with keyboard (couldn't fly a Y-Wing without one).  While using a mouse had me slamming my desk repeatedly to continue turning during a close in fight, it was vastly superior when it became necessary to do pinpoint shooting at a distant target.  This all has to do with simple ergonomics.  The mouse detects movement based off of a device cupped in your palm in a way that allows efficient use of grip, fine wrist movement, and hand eye coordination.

 

The stick on the other hand puts a third party in between the movement of your hand and the input sensor in the form of the base of the stick.  Your hand is also in a suboptimal position of using more fore and upper arm movement instead of the finer muscles of the hand that allows more precision movement.  You do however gain the ability to have a constant input signal which is the one real advantage the stick has over the mouse.  Given WoWP's control scheme in which you look and the plane automatically moves to where you point, that advantage is largely minimized.

 

The free look function is something I feel would be a hindrance when using the stick as well.  Playing IL-2, I'd keep the mouse nearby to look around the cockpit because the hat on top of my Wingman was too inaccurate a method to use on the fly and pushing a button to use the stick to look around would take away flight control and get me killed.

 

I personally think that if WG were to focus on an alternate control method, they should work on gamepads instead of sticks.  A dual control pad would allow players to use free look with one stick, fly with the other, while still having enough input devices to have most other game functions within reach.  Control would be based off the thumb, increasing ergonomics to just shy of that of the mouse, and you'd still maintain the constant input signal of a stick.  From a business sense, this would also cast a wider net because I would bet the farm that more people own a USB capable gamepad than a stick that can only be used on PC games.

 

Well put and thought out, sadly, I was more active than usual on the forums today and out of votes or I'd give you a +1



HamboneDeluxe #50 Posted 24 January 2014 - 07:32 PM

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I think what he is getting at here is that it is WAY easier to keep locked on target with a mouse. Having tried the KB+M controls, I must say there really isn't much skill involved in regards to controlling the aircraft while having to fire. Essentially just point the mouse where you want to go/aim, and the control surfaces do everything on their own, with only having to click to fire. Great for entry-level players. But hey! That's what tier 1 is there for! 

 

At the beginning of the alpha stage, I used a joystick .I found that, to an experienced flight game player (I played MS Combat Flight Simulator 3 since Christ was a cowboy), the game handled quite well. However, there is still loads more to focus on in terms of control while aiming/shooting a target than someone using a mouse would have to worry about.

 

Unfortunately, my joystick has since passed away during a tight bank to the left. They never even let me crash, instead peppering me with cannon fire while my plane spun out of control, and blowing me up just before I hit the ground lol! I have been forced to use my PS3 controller for now, with controls reminiscent of Iron Aces for the Dreamcast. Still very enjoyable and fluent, yet the same result. You have to manually control everything yourself, not just point in a direction with your mouse, and let everything control itself. Simply put, there is a lot more going on in your brain, and far more skill is being used!

 

This will never change. Wargaming understandably needs a KB+M layout so EVERYONE can play. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy a decent joystick. Myself, I have 3 other mouths to feed so buying a decent joystick (I'm not interested in a cheap one) is certainly out of the question at the moment. But at least I still use a controller!

 

So yes! In comparison, a KB+M hardly requires any skill at all as opposed to a joystick/gamepad. It is unfortunate, yet inevitable, that it MUST be this way. Let's face it. At least 75% of the play community uses the KB+M setup. If it weren't for them, the skies would be quite void of aircraft!


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Arthur_Dayne #51 Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:25 PM

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View PostVyacheslav, on 21 January 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

 

as far as I am aware most ppl use K+M because they already own it, and no one wants to have to buy a JS to play a F2P game. Most of the JS users have played flight sims in the past, and are aviation buffs. and as far back as I can remember all the flight sims and arcade flight games that I have played had the option for keyboard. Soooo I dont think it is true to say that most people use JS for flight games.

wrong....keyboard users are not playing this game.... JOystick users will pile in hardcore by the thousands one the herky jerky plane flyogn and bouncing all over steadys out



Arthur_Dayne #52 Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:28 PM

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people are convinced that because everyone has a keyboard this will et people to fly because everyone has one...NO..simply put your wrong....and the proof isnnt my rantings.. the proff is in the numbers....joystick users are hated KM are adored yet.....no players..... you need steady smooth stick control then u increase ur base

triptyx #53 Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:33 PM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 27 January 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

people are convinced that because everyone has a keyboard this will et people to fly because everyone has one...NO..simply put your wrong....and the proof isnnt my rantings.. the proff is in the numbers....joystick users are hated KM are adored yet.....no players..... you need steady smooth stick control then u increase ur base

 

The fallacy in your argument is the assumption that there are skads of joystick users just waiting in the wings panting for a chance to be superior to mouse users.  To support that assertion, you'd need to look at the market research WG has undoubtedly done as to what control methods the "average" user they're trying to target has available to them.



petersleepy #54 Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:35 PM

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Arthur_Dayne #55 Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:38 PM

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View PostMesserchantz, on 23 January 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Keyboard (well pc gamepad which is basically a little small arrangement of keybaord buttons plus a thumb stick) and mouse user here.

 

I have a flight stick.. it's still in the closet. I dont understand the OP's point. He says kb+mouse failed but I don't see why.. I control mine quite comfortably.

 

I can't comment on the joystick users experience beyond saying clearly some people have their configured well.. talk to them. Share your setup/config so they can help you get your controls lined up better.

it ffailed because in tanks... people were used to x-y axis 2d controls......when u add the z axix the game gets absurdly hard for noob keyboard flyers.....so they see it as crazy hard compared to tanks..or warships where u just point ur gun and pull the trigger and get a hit...guiding the plane getting that kill is EXTREMELY hard.... using a keyboard to learn it takes FOREVER..it will never be as simple as a joystick...so those payers quit FAST and go back to tanks.......the notion that the game will suyceed without embracing sticks and encourageing their use...rather than encouraging mouse just results in people quitting FAST.....if they used a stick they would stay and conversely when stickers try the game...they are qutting also because the controls and smoothness....is horriblel..bouncing all over aim sucks....so forth....sorru just cuz everyone has a keybaoord will never makea flight sim...and it is asim....a keyboard game



triptyx #56 Posted 27 January 2014 - 08:59 PM

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So, the reason, in your opinion, the game isn't doing well is because tanks players can't figure out the mouse controls, where the plane is all but flown for you (ok, it's completely flown for you), but somehow giving them a joystick where they need to handle aileron roll, elevator, and rudder all simultanously, flying the aircraft without any AI help, will cause those tanks players to stay????

Arthur_Dayne #57 Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:01 PM

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View Posttriptyx, on 27 January 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

 

The fallacy in your argument is the assumption that there are skads of joystick users just waiting in the wings panting for a chance to be superior to mouse users.  To support that assertion, you'd need to look at the market research WG has undoubtedly done as to what control methods the "average" user they're trying to target has available to them.

the average user undoubtly in market research will say M+K..but in reality these people willalmost Always...choose tanks over planes...because its naturaly a keyboard game where as planes is a joystick game



Arthur_Dayne #58 Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:02 PM

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View Posttriptyx, on 27 January 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

So, the reason, in your opinion, the game isn't doing well is because tanks players can't figure out the mouse controls, where the plane is all but flown for you (ok, it's completely flown for you), but somehow giving them a joystick where they need to handle aileron roll, elevator, and rudder all simultanously, flying the aircraft without any AI help, will cause those tanks players to stay????

YES. more over....when joysticks are impoved...those players will play...where now they cant even control the plane....its all about controls



triptyx #59 Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:04 PM

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View PostArthur_Dayne, on 27 January 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

the average user undoubtly in market research will say M+K..but in reality these people willalmost Always...choose tanks over planes...because its naturaly a keyboard game where as planes is a joystick game

 

Ok, now you're going in a direction I can somewhat agree with.  :)

 

The trick to mouse in WoWp is getting people who are interested in aerial combat into the game.  They may actually gravitate to joystick eventually, but you really need that as the gateway.  I'll agree that your average Tanks player probably won't appreciate WoWp - it's a different animal entirely, so you do need to attract a new crowd.  But in attracting that crowd, you want to lower the barrier to entry as far as you can, and M+K helps to fulfill that need.



Arthur_Dayne #60 Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:09 PM

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View Posttriptyx, on 27 January 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

 

Ok, now you're going in a direction I can somewhat agree with.  :)

 

The trick to mouse in WoWp is getting people who are interested in aerial combat into the game.  They may actually gravitate to joystick eventually, but you really need that as the gateway.  I'll agree that your average Tanks player probably won't appreciate WoWp - it's a different animal entirely, so you do need to attract a new crowd.  But in attracting that crowd, you want to lower the barrier to entry as far as you can, and M+K helps to fulfill that need.

u dont want this to become a real time strategy game..n its half way there where u point ur mouse and click and the plane flys and shoots...like starcraft or command and conquer...and ur halfway there already...n stick users r like woe...unfair advantage! so they don't play either


Edited by Arthur_Dayne, 27 January 2014 - 10:09 PM.





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