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Learning curve too steep


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minionsoldier #21 Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:54 AM

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View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

I believe the learning curve is too steep. The follwing statement may sound silly:

 

"I am having trouble winning, the developer has the responsibility to make me win."

 

But actually this is common sense in a money making point of view. This is not the only ftp game, if your customer can't win they are going to leave. A game cannot survive with a small player base. More specifically a lot of WOWP players come from WOT, this game needs to be easier for those WOT players to make the transition.

 

To those who find the above statement funny, I can assure you it is not. I am sure the developers are not stupid, they know there is indirect competition between this game and WOT. If this game don't "take off" as good as WOT, its just common sense that they will transfer all the resources to WOT where most money is made and eventually ditch this game. Whats the point of getting good in a game that will eventually disappear?

 

To the developers, if you don't want to make this game easier thats ok. You just won't have as much customers to make money from.

 

/thread

 



Heh #22 Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:03 PM

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View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

If the majority of basketball players do not win while wearing Nike shoes, then they will not buy Nike ever again. Even though it is not Nike's fault, the brand is still responsible for not making money regardless of the market condition.

 

People play WOT because it has WIN written all over it, people dont play to LOSE all the time. If the players don't win then they will quit, it is not WOWP's fault but it does not exempt the brand from its responsibility to retain enough players to keep the game alive.

 

It sounds ridiculous but in fact it is common sense.


But what you're saying there is that people won't play WoWP because it's a plane game. Let's look at the latter shall we?

 

In WoT, you have 2D movement. The "3D" battle only occurs with hills. In a plane game, you have free access to 3D movement, some planes having more access to the Z-axis than others.

 

In WoT, you also shoot at stationary targets unless it's a moving medium or light. In plane games, EVERYTHING MOVES. You will have to inprint deflection shooting in your head in most sims, but WG was nice and gave you a fancy lead indicator so you won't have to hurt your head with all those calculations.

 

In WoT, you can stand still. In WoWP, you can't unless you're at the peak of your stall, and at that point you're dead.

 

In WoT, speed is only a straight line spec. In WoWP, climb rate and vertical energy bleed is issued too, which can make the difference between one plane and another.

 

In WoT, you can have impenetrable fortresses blocking your flank. In WoWP, armor is virtually non-existent unless it's MGs against sky whales.

 

And that's just PART of the equation. Plane games are MADE to be harder than ground shooting games since there's a crapton more complex things to learn. This is also why it takes longer to get a pilot's licence than a driver's license. Changing that just for people that are more used to another genre is pure stupidity, as in the kind you'd have to feel terrible about. I myself am good at FPSes and also good at arcade plane games, but I suck at Criterion's Burnout games as do a lot of people. Does that mean that Criterion should change their doctrine? Hell no. Is Criterion still successful? You bet they are.


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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

lostwingman #23 Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:35 PM

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View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

View Postlostwingman, on 20 November 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Try using AA and HF at first if you're having trouble as they have the simplest and most straight forward flying maneuvers. There are tons of guides on energy fighting in HFs to help.

.

View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

If the players don't win then they will quit

That's not remotely true.

There is a reason this meme exists:

 

Spoiler

 


It is natural for people to avoid anything that is difficult especially if the activity is not compulsory (even more so when this is only a game). This is why people who are not good at math will stay away from subjects which require math. This is human nature, nothing you find on the internet can change this fact.

Your analogy is fallacious. You have to be good at  math or at least successful to see any benefits. All you have to do in WoWP or WoT is show up. It's how those people exist.

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ActionFigure #24 Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:27 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 20 November 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

It's a flight game.... it can only be dumded down so far.

 

 

And someone fix Bad_Lag's other neg rep. (#$%%# neg repp'n ^$#%^^s)


If something is not good enough I expect them to keep trying to make it better, in this case the controls.

SkyWolf__WM #25 Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:35 PM

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View PostHeh, on 20 November 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

In WoT, you have 2D movement. The "3D" battle only occurs with hills. In a plane game, you have free access to 3D movement, some planes having more access to the Z-axis than others.

 

 

 

Just a nit-pick... Y axis is the vertical.

 

 


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ActionFigure #26 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:01 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 20 November 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Yes the leanring curve on this game is high and it took me over 1000 battles to get somewhat good. Before release I logged in 6000 battles. I still am not great at the this game but I continue to learn and grow. This is not a console game wit hthe options for different difficulty levels nor are there cheat codes available so one can take the easy way out. This is a free t oplay game and the choice is individual to play or even to continue. The difficulty level will not have any effect on Wargaming to make money nor will this game fail. There are far to many people available in the world that will play this game. I for one am terrible at world of tanks and now play it very rarely. Kind of a shame since I am an EX M3 Bradley Scout.

I was never under the impression that games should be designed to win but designed for people to learn. Even a game as simple as CHESS has winners and losers.

In Chess it is easy to win against a computer at level 1 yet while advancing to level 10 it becomes more difficult. In PVP game you have the human element and it is the human you are playing against, not a computer. Like Chess you can search out other humans to play with all day long and yet loose every game because you do not know how well your opponent can play. Chess is an easy game to win if your opponents know nothing about the game and its numerous combinations of winning. If you come across a person that knows all the winning combinations and strategies it becomes more difficult and you perhaps would loose every game,

As for the NIKE idea, Shoes have nothing to do with winning and is an absolute absurd idea that basketball is dependant upon the shoe. I do see however that the marketing strategy has certainly convinced you that if you buy NIKE you will win at everything. So win lose or draw NIKE as a company has won. They got your money while your still not a very good at basketball and placing the blame on NIKE rather than ones own skill.

Wargaming is not to blame for a persons lack of wanting to learn and advance in a game, while they have a player base that does have the willingness to leanr and grow.

Is it an easy game NO, is it playable and can you win. YES.

What are you willing to do to learn ?

 

1. If you come across a person that knows all the winning combinations and strategies it becomes more difficult and you perhaps would loose every game,

If you start to lose every game, it is obvious that you will eventually stop playing. I am not talking about the opponent, I am talking about the controls, the controls plays a major part in determining the learning curve.

 

2. I do see however that the marketing strategy has certainly convinced you that if you buy NIKE you will win at everything. So win lose or draw NIKE as a company has won.

Nike uses this marketing strategy because it works on most of the earth population, that includes You. The fact that NIKE use NBA players to write WIN over its shoes proves that itthis strategy works, therefore WOWP should also attract more customers by putting WIN all over it.

 

3. Wargaming is not to blame for a persons lack of wanting to learn and advance in a game,

I never said it is WOWP's fault if it's player can't win, I said it is their responsibility to make the game easy to learn and advance. You need to read the previous posts.

 

4. while they have a player base that does have the willingness to leanr and grow.

If you have read the previous posts, you will see that I am comparing this game against WOT. Right now I don't feel the "bang" that I felt when I am playing WOT therefore I am giving a potential solution, which is the need to create a control scheme that is easy to learn specifically for WOT players. Wargaming should aim to attract the 60+ millions player base from WOT. not the smaller gaming population who are interested in plane games. So in comparison to WOT, no they don't have a player base that is willing to learn and grow.



tahee59 #27 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:05 PM

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so do you want them to just boost you so you can win more or everyone . tell me how that will work.

ActionFigure #28 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:06 PM

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View PostKrimakov, on 20 November 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

I believe the learning curve is too steep. The follwing statement may sound silly:

 

"I am having trouble winning, the developer has the responsibility to make me win."

 

But actually this is common sense in a money making point of view. This is not the only ftp game, if your customer can't win they are going to leave. A game cannot survive with a small player base. More specifically a lot of WOWP players come from WOT, this game needs to be easier for those WOT players to make the transition.

 

To those who find the above statement funny, I can assure you it is not. I am sure the developers are not stupid, they know there is indirect competition between this game and WOT. If this game don't "take off" as good as WOT, its just common sense that they will transfer all the resources to WOT where most money is made and eventually ditch this game. Whats the point of getting good in a game that will eventually disappear?

 

To the developers, if you don't want to make this game easier thats ok. You just won't have as much customers to make money from.


If you think this game has a steep learing curve; please, go try this one and report back what you find after the 2-week free trial:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/

 

 

I only include that link so that people may see what a pure WWII combat-sim is really like vs. what we have...the perfect blend of sim&arcade!


I am not comparing this game to other games, I am comparing specifically with WOT. WOT has a large player base, therefore Wargaming should concentrate on attracting those players.

thyBane #29 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:08 PM

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Topic starter . When would you finally realize that your inability to learn comes only from You yourself . Not from WG or anything else. As comparising . Its my 1st fly game . Started 3 weeks before release and played 1k battles 65% win. After release im almost at 300 battles and 64% win and i managed to double my kills amount from beta. To steep curve ? I dont think so . Its all about You realizing your mistakes and fixing them . If you dont know how to learn Efficiently  . Its Your problem. As for me instead evading best players in game . I was enjoying quin myself against them. They was killing me for some time. But then i learnex their tricks and used it on them. Worked perfectly . Its no excuse for laziness. Internet is full of guides and useful info . And yes im a tanker . And surprisingly in tanks i also top 200 of the server. Good willing people are good at everything . Baddies just keep making excuses for their own stupidity. Sorry but this is sad reality

ActionFigure #30 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:12 PM

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View Postlostwingman, on 20 November 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Your analogy is fallacious. You have to be good at  math or at least successful to see any benefits. All you have to do in WoWP or WoT is show up. It's how those people exist.

 

Exactly, the direct translation of "You have to be good at  math or at least successful to see any benefits" to WOWP is "You have to be at least successful in WOWP to see that it is fun to play".



Heh #31 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:13 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 20 November 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Just a nit-pick... Y axis is the vertical.


Nope. Y-axis is the axis that indicates the transaction from 1D to 2D.

 

View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Exactly, the direct translation of "You have to be good at  math or at least successful to see any benefits" to WOWP is "You have to be at least successful in WOWP to see that it is fun to play".


So you're supposed to play a flight game without learning how to play a flight game just like you can apparently ride a bike without knowing anything about riding a bike? Only beginner's luck can solve this, and not everyone has access to it.

 

In other words, your argument is still flawed. You want to learn a new genre of videogames? Stop being a lazy twit and learn how to play it, whether it's from reading books about it or experience playing them with that extra hint of beginner's luck if you have it.


Edited by Heh, 20 November 2013 - 05:16 PM.

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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

ActionFigure #32 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:19 PM

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View PostthyBane, on 20 November 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Topic starter . When would you finally realize that your inability to learn comes only from You yourself . Not from WG or anything else. As comparising . Its my 1st fly game . Started 3 weeks before release and played 1k battles 65% win. After release im almost at 300 battles and 64% win and i managed to double my kills amount from beta. To steep curve ? I dont think so . Its all about You realizing your mistakes and fixing them . If you dont know how to learn Efficiently . Its Your problem. As for me instead evading best players in game . I was enjoying quin myself against them. They was killing me for some time. But then i learnex their tricks and used it on them. Worked perfectly . Its no excuse for laziness. Internet is full of guides and useful info . And yes im a tanker . And surprisingly in tanks i also top 200 of the server. Good willing people are good at everything . Baddies just keep making excuses for their own stupidity. Sorry but this is sad reality

I am not talking about myself, nor am I interested in your gaming experience. WOT has 60+ millions players, I am saying that Wargaming should aim to attract those players by changing the controls.

ActionFigure #33 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:24 PM

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View PostHeh, on 20 November 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

So you're supposed to play a flight game without learning how to play a flight game just like you can apparently ride a bike without knowing anything about riding a bike? Only beginner's luck can solve this, and not everyone has access to it.

 

In other words, your argument is still flawed. You want to learn a new genre of videogames? Stop being a lazy twit and learn how to play it, whether it's from reading books about it or experience playing them with that extra hint of beginner's luck if you have it.

 

That is exactly what I am saying, you are suppose to play a flight game without learning how to play a flight game. The developers have the resposibility to attract WOT players, so make this game more tank like. It sounds ridiculous but if Wargaming is interested in attracting the 60+ millions WOT players then this is what it should do.



losttwo #34 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:39 PM

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View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

 

That is exactly what I am saying, you are suppose to play a flight game without learning how to play a flight game. The developers have the resposibility to attract WOT players, so make this game more tank like. It sounds ridiculous but if Wargaming is interested in attracting the 60+ millions WOT players then this is what it should do.


Make this game more tank like ???? that is why they have world of tanks.....so people can play a tank like game. This is world of warplanes where people fly planes. I have a Sniper Elite game on my console gaming system because I like Sniper games.....so glad this is not like a Sniper game.

Wargaming doesnt have to attract WOT players, not everyone likes flying games. THe thing you fail to realize is that you are expecting ewveryone to be like you and they are not. We are all individual people with out different likes and dislikes. I am sure WG is not interested in attracting people that do not play games or do not like games. What would you suggest WG do for those that enjoy playing Scrabble ? Perhaps at the end of each match you have to unscramble letters and place them on a board for a particular score. Wargaming as a company has but one responsability that is for the people they employ. THey do not have to design a game FOR YOU, They do not have to make it EASY for you. THey do not even have to make the chat safe. They do nto have ot monitor, do forums or any thing else.

They do not even have to make a game for my 4 year old duaghters Leapfrog so she can play too.

As far as I know every game I have ever played I had to leanr how to play it, I was not born knowing how to play every game even CHESS, I had to read many books and strategy books on how to win.

I can remember the first time I hooked PONG into the TV... I had to leanr how to play it, controls, the settings, everything. Everything in life takes a little bit of learning.



thyBane #35 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:41 PM

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Ok man . You missed intentions of my post . But its ok . Ill say in another words. I Personally know few wot devs in real life. And we had a conversation about thing you posted. And WG would never do what you writing here . Simply never. They got much better tools to achieve it. If you dont know them . Well dont mean they dont have them. And yes its NDA so i cant explain fully how it will be done. But as a example . They would not make learning curve easier then now . Deal with it. Its already damn easy. And you know what they told me when i tried to extrapolate myself as an average player experience to them ? Answer just blown my mind off. - Andrew stop trolling us ! You arent average player and you know it. And we do have a hardcore people working on that and they are doing very well using wot experience . Work on this will never stop . And stop thinking its 2 and a half people working on a game.

thyBane #36 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:47 PM

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The unique beauty of WG is that the only company i know in which you can go to forum (russian one ) and ask a question ( if its a good one ) and a Lead game designer will answer you himself . Couch critics are fun . Thats why they keep being couch critics . And WG keep making money on games like this . Because they KNOW what they are doing Better that anyone in the world

aquabat #37 Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:51 PM

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View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

snip

 

There is so much wrong in what you're saying that I don't even know where to begin.

 

First, the steep learning curve is inherent to flight games, even the most easy ones. It is impossible to make flying like a tank game because tanks don't fly.

 

Second, this game does not have a steep learning curve. It is actually quite easy to learn to play. Mastering it is hard, but learning the basics definitely is not.

 

Third, if WGing was to follow your advice and dumb this game down even more (and believe me, they have already made it much easier), it will not only not attract more players but it will drive away most of it's already small player base. The developers do not have the responsibility to attract WoT players. Actually, they should not try and cater for WoT people just because they already play one of their games. What they should look for when improving this game is attracting players that actually want to play an arcade game of planes. If they do not develop their flying game for people who want flying games, they will have no customer at all after a while. Tanks is easier because you don't actually have to care much about driving the tank, you can just go sit in that bush and protect your arty, play pickaboom with your medium tank or whatever other stupid stuff you like. Your tank will not die by itself if you do nothing. In this game, actually paying attention to how you move is the most important part because, you know, you are flying an airplane.

 

Now don't get me wrong. This game needs a LOT of improvement. Making it flying tonks for the mentally challenged is not an improvement.



Heh #38 Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:34 PM

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View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

That is exactly what I am saying, you are suppose to play a flight game without learning how to play a flight game. The developers have the resposibility to attract WOT players, so make this game more tank like. It sounds ridiculous but if Wargaming is interested in attracting the 60+ millions WOT players then this is what it should do.

View PostActionFigure, on 20 November 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

you are suppose to play a flight game without learning how to play a flight game.

 

Oh god you must be either massive casual or a master ruseman. Let me drill the idea in your head: To do something, one must almost always learn it. No, do not go to the exceptions. Said exceptions involve other skills that indirectly helped the user do better (like better reflexes coming from rhythm games helping you become better at paintball). That sick and stupid ideology of "I'm supposed to do something without learning it" ruins every single game series and even genre. You want to play a flight game but have a few skill-based obstacles? Stop whining, man up, and learn to play. You'll get it in about 500 battles worth of experience plus exposure to forum guides here, maybe more depending on your ping, but it shouldn't take you more than a month to get decent at this game. Man did not walk without learning to walk.


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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

losttwo #39 Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:02 PM

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this entire post has gone to the dogs.http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/23789-caption-contest/page__st__20#top

Edited by losttwo, 20 November 2013 - 07:03 PM.


Bogie_with_Stu #40 Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:12 PM

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I think the OP has a different view of the game than 90% of us, and thst's fine. His arguments about the market and player retention are ridiculous and not based on any kind of sense, much less "common sense". He simply feels that way personally and calls it common sense to bolster his point. Again, understandable..but incorrect.

 

This game is not for everyone. Let me repeat that just so I know you actually got it. This    game    is    not    for      everyone.

Making the game easier just alienates the hard core players that actually spend the money on the game. In fact, during Beta testing it was shown that the more the devs dumed-down the game, the less it got played.

 

If the OP is not competitive, thats fine. If he feels that anything in his life that is not perfectly easy...thats a good reason to avoid it...thats fine too.

But he will NEVER be happy with this game if he keeps that attitude.

 

Every single game that you play here, you make progress of some kind. Either it is coins, or experience, or just learing your planes better...you always get something. It may not be "enough" for you, but it is not like..if you lose, you get ZERO anything. The more effort you put into the game, the larger those rewards will be.

 

Perhaps this is not the game for you. I'd like to think that even the least competitive player could/would find a way to enjoy the game....but asking the devs for an "easy mode" button will not solve your problem.

I have ALWAYS advocated for a less barbaric experience from tier 1-3. The learning curve IS very high. The game attracts people who like to challange themselves, and it works beautifully in that area. Its PvP after all. Even that silly browswr based 2 dimensional ship game has players who get banged up really hard in the first week. Any time you have another live person on the other end, the difficulty level rises exponentially. It is the nature of the beast.

 

I got RAPED in tanks for the first 6 months. The game mechanics were easy enough to understand, but until you gaian enough experience in different situations....it's gonna hurt.

To say that tankers have to have a much easier game over here or they wont stay is just plain incorrect IMHO.






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