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japan planes, my opinion


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IBM #1 Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:49 AM

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im only at tier 4 and im dumping this line.

i been killed in less then one second the past 5 matches.

its stupid and not worth the time it takes to get any higher.

i see others say there paper and that is a understatment.

The_Dutch_Oven #2 Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:56 AM

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The A5M is one of the worst planes I ever flew. The A6M1 is decent when fully upgraded. The M5 is a fairly good fighter. Can't vouch beyond that
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Haswell #3 Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:03 AM

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Here's the kicker: when your plane has very little armor and durability, but decent armament and very good maneuverability, how do you make the most out of your advantages? By not getting hit in the first place, of course! You kept getting shot down because you consistently placed yourself into a situation where you became an easy target. Stop doing that, and you'll do just fine.
But if you can't dodge bullets in the most maneuverable planes available in the game, what chances do you have in slower, more sluggish planes?

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rocketbrainsurgeon #4 Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:26 AM

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The problem with the JP planes is that there's no upside: even if you dodge incoming fire and manage to get on your opponents' tail, you have the lowest damage of your peers.  A fully upgraded RU/DE plane can saw a wing off with a tiny burst, while a JP plane really has to work for the kill.

UraniumOverdose #5 Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:30 AM

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The lower tier Japanese planes are REALLY good at what they do, straight up turn dogfighting. They are absolutely awful at everything but that. I don't have an opinion on tier 6+, but tiers 4 and 5, I have the best stats out of all my planes in the zero's. The key is, stay on base defense for the first half of the match or so, pick off the first few GA or heavy fighter planes that come to attack your AA. Once the herd is thinned a bit, it's safe for you the venture out of your base. Your weaknesses are fighters using energy booms on you, and getting out numbered.
Also people need to stop abusing the negative rep, the guy has an opinion, deal with it and stop being vindictive.

Edited by UraniumOverdose, 28 August 2013 - 01:32 AM.

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Haswell #6 Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:36 AM

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View Postrocketbrainsurgeon, on 28 August 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

The problem with the JP planes is that there's no upside: even if you dodge incoming fire and manage to get on your opponents' tail, you have the lowest damage of your peers.  A fully upgraded RU/DE plane can saw a wing off with a tiny burst, while a JP plane really has to work for the kill.

Pray, do explain how machine guns at tiers 1-3, 20mm cannons at tiers 4-6, and 30mm cannons from tier 7 and above, gives the IJN planes any less firepower than its peers.

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UraniumOverdose #7 Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:44 AM

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View PostHaswell, on 28 August 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Pray, do explain how machine guns at tiers 1-3, 20mm cannons at tiers 4-6, and 30mm cannons from tier 7 and above, gives the IJN planes any less firepower than its peers.

Yeah I am not seeing that either, fully upgraded my zeroes routinely tear into heavy fighters without any problem. Combine that with HE ammo and you can snipe a bit too.

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Solodive #8 Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:22 AM

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clearly you do not see the role of these planes. and i would tell you exactly how to play them, what to do, what not to do, when to do what, and everything else you could possibly think of relating to this line of planes. however since you dumped the line im not going to waste the time.

basically.... you were doing it wrong (clearly)

rocketbrainsurgeon #9 Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:00 AM

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View PostHaswell, on 28 August 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Pray, do explain how machine guns at tiers 1-3, 20mm cannons at tiers 4-6, and 30mm cannons from tier 7 and above, gives the IJN planes any less firepower than its peers.

Low alpha, low DPM, guns heat up quickly.  Just because they are Xmm cannons doesn't mean they put out the same damage other Xmm cannons do.

TheAmerican #10 Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:02 AM

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Whatever you do, don't take hits. Most other tier 4 planes can tear an A6M1 in half with a few short bursts. Avoid attacking planes with tail gunners for an extended period, because even they can do a decent amount of damage to you. Most of all, avoid areas of the map covered by enemy AA fire like the plague; it will halve your health in ten seconds in areas of dense concentration. The A6M5 is a bit more durable, but still follows these same basic principles. Your goal in either member of the Zero family is to single out one target, use your superior maneuverability to stay on his tail, and pursue him until he is blown from the sky. Don't try dogfighting in big groups of planes as you will inevitably be hit by stray bullets, which can also be a major threat to your survival.

SkyWolf__WM #11 Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:30 AM

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The A6M series are teh most terrible planes in the game. I'm going to dump them because they are absolutely useless and there is no way to fly them without getting bloe'd up alot.
SEE

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Heh #12 Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:02 PM

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View Postrocketbrainsurgeon, on 28 August 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

Low alpha
Yeah right, I've actually calculated the burst damage values of the Japanese planes. Turns out they either are the best or one of the best in alpha damage, especially the J7Ws that have the firepower of a little more than 3 mk 108s, FAR outclassing all fighters in its tier in that aspect. That kind of alpha damage plus the close up and personal nature of Japanese planes makes their alpha one of the best.
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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

rocketbrainsurgeon #13 Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:58 PM

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Alpha is not burst damage.  I said nothing about burst damage.  Alpha is the average damage per shell.
If you get that burst on target, great.
Sniping from long range: nope.  Prolonged fire on a bob & weaver: nope.  So what happens is you sit back there and wait for your guns to cool down and your opponent to settle down.

Edited by rocketbrainsurgeon, 28 August 2013 - 03:00 PM.


Bandet #14 Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:08 PM

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View Postrocketbrainsurgeon, on 28 August 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Alpha is not burst damage.  I said nothing about burst damage.  Alpha is the average damage per shell.
If you get that burst on target, great.
Sniping from long range: nope.  Prolonged fire on a bob & weaver: nope.  So what happens is you sit back there and wait for your guns to cool down and your opponent to settle down.

Alpha is launching all weapons at once, so yeah. It is kinda burst damage.

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Heh #15 Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:36 PM

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View Postrocketbrainsurgeon, on 28 August 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Alpha is not burst damage.  I said nothing about burst damage.  Alpha is the average damage per shell.
If you get that burst on target, great.
Sniping from long range: nope.  Prolonged fire on a bob & weaver: nope.  So what happens is you sit back there and wait for your guns to cool down and your opponent to settle down.

That's exactly what I meant. You shoot once, then you calculate the damage. And from what I've been calculating so far, the Japanese planes have an advantage in that area.
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OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

Haswell #16 Posted 28 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

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View Postrocketbrainsurgeon, on 28 August 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Alpha is not burst damage.  I said nothing about burst damage.  Alpha is the average damage per shell.
If you get that burst on target, great.
Sniping from long range: nope.  Prolonged fire on a bob & weaver: nope.  So what happens is you sit back there and wait for your guns to cool down and your opponent to settle down.

You can't expect to saturate the area in front of you with 30mm shells and hope for your opponent to get hit by one eventually, nor can you hold down the trigger and waste your heat buildup on thin air as you slowly lead your train of hurt on target. Contrary to popular belief, spraying and praying doesn't work in all situations.

And do explain how the 30mm shells are any less potent than other weapons of the same caliber. Be sure to factor in armor penetration, muzzle velocity, innate module damage coefficients and secondary damage effects from HE fillings.

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rocketbrainsurgeon #17 Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:08 PM

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View PostHaswell, on 28 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

And do explain how the 30mm shells are any less potent than other weapons of the same caliber. Be sure to factor in armor penetration, muzzle velocity, innate module damage coefficients and secondary damage effects from HE fillings.
Guys, I don't have some weird vendetta against JP planes.  I'm trying to point out the deficiencies before release so they can be fixed.
Here's how different weapons of the same caliber can have different damage: I don't have any JP planes since the wipe to look at the ammo, but you'd see the same trends: the JP planes deal less damage per shot (alpha) than other nations.
Go look at the fully upgraded ratings for each plane here.  JP planes consistently have the lowest or among the lowest firepower ratings in tier.  They have the lowest or are among the lowest for theoretical DPS.
The cannons overheat quicker than other nations too.  There is literally no metric on which to say that the JP planes out-gun their counterparts.  Don't give me anecdotal evidence, because the only anecdotal evidence I see of their prowess is how few of them there are in game, and how you guys defending them don't even choose to fly them.

Haswell #18 Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:42 PM

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So, why aren't your 20mm M2 cannons on your F4U dealing at least 59 damage per shot against all targets?

There is a reason why aces excelled back before they released the 'numbers' for firepower and such, simply because there are more calculations involved in the damage model than flat damage applied and we learned to understand that. I won't give you anecdotal evidence, because I can provide you the exact formula for projectile damage calculations.

damage = k * shootInfo.kineticPartMinDist * gd.DPS * 60.0 / gd.RPM

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rocketbrainsurgeon #19 Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:46 PM

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I suspect those in-game damage numbers are off by a factor of 10 (they put the decimal in the wrong spot), or they play into the formula differently than just X damage.

Regarding your formula: if you plug lower numbers into it, you're going to get lower numbers out of it.  Right now, the only numbers we can see for the JP are lower than the rest.

Haswell #20 Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:56 PM

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That's the formula for determining the primary damage effects of each individual machine gun bullet and cannon shell based on kinetic energy, before considering armor negation and secondary module damage effects. Explosive damage gets calculated even further down the line, naturally.

Look, I'd love to reveal what the constants and variables refer to, but this is one situation where you can either fully believe what the numbers tell you, or you can trust in the experience and knowledge of others to know roughly how the mechanics actually work.

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