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Get rid of the prototypes and jets.


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boxtosser #41 Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:43 PM

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View Postzen1360, on 24 August 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

..and your point is?

Blue-print planes are hardly "sci-fi or fantasy crap".
More planes are being added and will continue to be added over the life of the game.
From day one WG stated the specific "era" of planes that would be covered...no surprise there, yet the OP seems surprised.
Those concept planes and jets have been here since day one...now he complains?

Neg rep is to be used when you feel the poster is being less than genuine, complaining unnecessarily, not making sense, or being hostile among other reasons...I dont see a problem with neg rep for the OP here.

My point is they could have stuck with a game using strictly historical aircraft and it would have still attracted a sizeable audience.  If they wanted to make Germany and Japan competitive at endgame without "paper" planes, they could have put the cutoff in .46 and the Germans would still have competitive top tier airplanes while hte Allies would get to play with their cool toys that didn't quite make it aka Spiteful, Sea Fury, P-80, Bearcat, etc.


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SkyWolf__WM #42 Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:47 PM

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View PostHeh, on 22 August 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

So what can compete with the Sabre and Cutlass at tier 10 from the German side?
Why the heck are they in the game?
If they are.. then why can't I have an A-1 Skyraider?
We have a 262HG3 but no FW190 series? It has no valid flight model,  It's "Historically Insignificant". As is the German line above the 262, the Japanese Line above the A65M, Upper tier GA Aircraft etc.
"Historically Insignificant" Aircraft  have error ridden "made up" flight models and are nonsensical.
It amuses me to watch people try to defend them. "The Pancake was real"!!!!!!!   Yes all three prototypes built were real. Real Failures.
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SkyWolf__WM #43 Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:05 PM

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View PostHeh, on 22 August 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Oh yes, jets totally weren't part of WWII. Just look at the famous Me 262, Meteor, Vampire, P-80 and FJ-1 propeller planes.

Other than the ME262 which, while a massive step forward, all were still a non-factor in the war... All of those aircraft were "Historically Insignificant".
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SkyWolf__WM #44 Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:16 PM

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View PostNathanFlightLeader, on 22 August 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:


Did you know that the last time two planes ever dogfighted (As in chasing each other shooting machine guns) was in the Korean War where the timeline for WoWP ends.

Actually, it was in Vietnam (multiple times)... unless you count an A10 downing an Iraqi Helicopter in the 1st Gulf War. There are probably others
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boxtosser #45 Posted 24 August 2013 - 08:42 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 24 August 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Actually, it was in Vietnam (multiple times)... unless you count an A10 downing an Iraqi Helicopter in the 1st Gulf War. There are probably others

Yeah that's why the F-4 Phantom was fitted with the Vulcan, because missiles at the time were unreliable and doctrine had overestimated their abilities.


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Heh #46 Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:14 PM

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View Postboxtosser, on 24 August 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Yeah that's why the F-4 Phantom was fitted with the Vulcan, because missiles at the time were unreliable and doctrine had overestimated their abilities.

"Missiles are the future" McDonnell Douglas said. "Dogfights would be useless" they said. Hilarious, the Vulcan gunpod killed more enemy aircraft with less ammunition costs.
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View Posthahiha, on , said:


OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

_Laserguided_ #47 Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:50 PM

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View PostHeh, on 24 August 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

"Missiles are the future" McDonnell Douglas said. "Dogfights would be useless" they said. Hilarious, the Vulcan gunpod killed more enemy aircraft with less ammunition costs.

While in Ordance School back in 1984 for the Navy they mentioned the Sidewinder having twice as many kills(Over 200 world wide at the time) over the Vulcan, and that the Sidewinder was the one of best weapon systems ever in regards to best bang for the buck.  I recall the Sidewinder have roughly 85 kills in Vietnam where the Vulcan had like 40 or so for the US.  Wish I had copies of the movies they played of the Vulcan chewing planes into little chunks.


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Bandet #48 Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:04 PM

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I think the prototypes, and not mass-produced planes should be premium/special/event planes only, so they would be rare.

Would be more realistic.

Jets are fine. You won't see a tier x fighting tier 3 anyways so its historically accurate.

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NathanFlightLeader #49 Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:57 PM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 24 August 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Actually, it was in Vietnam (multiple times)... unless you count an A10 downing an Iraqi Helicopter in the 1st Gulf War. There are probably others

Really, I didn't think there was any aerial combat except helicopters!
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CrashTailspin #50 Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:01 AM

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View PostNathanFlightLeader, on 24 August 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Really, I didn't think there was any aerial combat except helicopters!

:amazed:   Seriously?  Wow.

Without listing the multitude of MiG vs F4U / F-105 / F8E type of battles, allow me to point you to one of the biggest Vietnam War aerial battles, orchestrated and flown by one of America's greatest fighter pilots.  Ever.

Operation Bolo, in response to Operation Rolling Thunder

5 MiG-21s downed without a loss (7 claimed by the US).  I call that a success.

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NathanFlightLeader #51 Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:20 AM

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View PostCrashTailspin, on 25 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

:amazed:   Seriously?  Wow.

Without listing the multitude of MiG vs F4U / F-105 / F8E type of battles, allow me to point you to one of the biggest Vietnam War aerial battles, orchestrated and flown by one of America's greatest fighter pilots.  Ever.

Operation Bolo, in response to Operation Rolling Thunder

5 MiG-21s downed without a loss (7 claimed by the US).  I call that a success.

I knew about Operation Rolling Thunder but I've done three school reports on the Vietnam War and they all foccussed on the ground warfare. I knew there were patrols and all that but I never knew about air-to-air combat. I suppose because there weren't that many planes I didn't know about it as its not in any of my Vietnam books.

From a quick skim of the Operation Bolo link it appears that most of the MiG's were shot down using missiles (I read AIM-9 Sidewinder) and they are guided. If you read my original post clearly you will see that by dogfight I mean to planes engaging each other using only MG's and Cannons, not missiles. In my opinion using missiles isn't dogfighting because there is less skill involved when using missiles.

Again there may be an engagment in modern times that I don't know about but as far as I know the last enegament where guns were the primary means of downing a plane was during the Korean War in MiG Alley.
"It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you just bombed."
"The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire."
The three most common expressions (or famous last words) in aviation are: "Why is it doing that?", "Where are we?" And "Oh S...!"
"Airspeed, altitude and brains. Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight."
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.

KenworthDriver #52 Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:10 AM

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View PostNathanFlightLeader, on 25 August 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

I knew about Operation Rolling Thunder but I've done three school reports on the Vietnam War and they all foccussed on the ground warfare. I knew there were patrols and all that but I never knew about air-to-air combat. I suppose because there weren't that many planes I didn't know about it as its not in any of my Vietnam books.
From a quick skim of the Operation Bolo link it appears that most of the MiG's were shot down using missiles (I read AIM-9 Sidewinder) and they are guided. If you read my original post clearly you will see that by dogfight I mean to planes engaging each other using only MG's and Cannons, not missiles. In my opinion using missiles isn't dogfighting because there is less skill involved when using missiles.
Again there may be an engagment in modern times that I don't know about but as far as I know the last enegament where guns were the primary means of downing a plane was during the Korean War in MiG Alley.
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there were also several engagements in the Arab-Israeli wars of the  60's and early  70's... and Pakistan and India had quite a few  aerial shootouts, plus  the Falklands war in the early 80's had Harriers pitted against Mirage's... there have been a lot of aerial engagements since WW2, just nothing directly concerning  the big superpowers...
and 1982 was a big year for the F-16, as the Israeli Air Force shot down some 44 Syrian MiG's over Lebanon... and the Syrians got 5 F-16's and a couple F-4's  with their MiG-23's...
During the Soviet-Afghan war, between May 1986 and January 1989, Pakistan Air Force F-16s shot down at least 10 intruders from Afghanistan. Four of the kills were Afghan Su-22s bombers, three were Afghan transports (two An-26s and one An-24), and one was a Soviet Su-25 bomber. Most of these kills were achieved using the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but a Su-22 was destroyed by cannon fire and the one An-24 crash landed after being forced to land upon interception...
On 27 November 1992, two Venezuelan F-16s took part in the November Venezuelan Coup Attempt on the side of the government over the city of Barquisimeto and its Military Air Base. In particular, the two F-16As strafed targets on the ground and shot down two OV-10 Broncos with AIM-9Ps and one AT-27 Tucano with cannon fire as these rebel-flown aircraft attacked loyalist army positions.
A total of six MiG-29s were shot down during the Kosovo War, of which three were shot down by USAF F-15s, one by a USAF F-16, and one by a RNAF F-16..
F-15Cs had 34 confirmed kills of Iraqi aircraft during the 1991 Gulf War, mostly by missile fire: five MiG-29 "Fulcrums", two MiG-25 "Foxbats", eight MiG-23 "Floggers", two MiG-21 "Fishbeds", two Su-25 "Frogfoots", four Su-22 "Fitters", one Su-7, six Mirage F1s, one Il-76 cargo plane, one Pilatus PC-9 trainer, and two Mi-8 helicopters.
***
On 14 February, 1991, an F-15E scored its only air-to-air kill of the first Gulf War: a Mil Mi-24 helicopter. While responding to a request for help by US Special Forces, five Iraqi helicopters were spotted. The lead F-15E of two acquired a helicopter via its FLIR in the process of unloading Iraqi soldiers, and released a GBU-10 bomb. The F-15E crew thought the bomb had missed its target and were preparing to use a Sidewinder when the helicopter was destroyed. The Special Forces team estimated that the Hind was roughly 800 feet (240 m) over the ground when the 2,000 lb (910 kg) bomb hit its target.
***
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a helpful thread I  found if you  just want numbers:  http://www.militaryp...-combat-records

Edited by KenworthDriver, 25 August 2013 - 08:16 AM.

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CCTV1 #53 Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:16 AM

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SkyWolf__WM #54 Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:47 AM

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View PostCCTV1, on 25 August 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

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AnuSuaraj_CRO #55 Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:10 AM

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View PostHeh, on 22 August 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

So what can compete with the Sabre and Cutlass at tier 10 from the German side?

The 109TL owns the Sabre and the Cutlass...

Heh #56 Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:22 AM

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View PostCrashTailspin, on 25 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

:amazed:   Seriously?  Wow.

Without listing the multitude of MiG vs F4U / F-105 / F8E type of battles, allow me to point you to one of the biggest Vietnam War aerial battles, orchestrated and flown by one of America's greatest fighter pilots.  Ever.

Operation Bolo, in response to Operation Rolling Thunder

5 MiG-21s downed without a loss (7 claimed by the US).  I call that a success.

The F-4 became the air superiority fighter of the US in Vietnam despite it being a flying turd in terms of turning. Still, its speed was very much needed. And the Thunderchief just delivered a B-17's bombload at Mach 2. Still, the Vietnam War wasn't all guerrilla warfare (though it's a very large majority of the conflict and a good reason as to why the US had trouble defeating the Vietnamese, since they had intelligent trapping tactics and knew their land very well).

View PostAnuSuaraj_CRO, on 25 August 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

The 109TL owns the Sabre and the Cutlass...

I meant without going into prototypes.
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View Posthahiha, on , said:


OMG Heh you have had so many posts O_O

losttwo #57 Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:29 AM

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use your imagination and imagine your self flying anything you want. It is a numbers game when you get to the very basics. This set of numbers versus this set of numbers while the illusion that you are flying a " prototype fools you into thinking its no fun becasue your loosing. I enjoy flying around in my underpowerd F22, then popping into my Tardis for the next round. Either blue pill red pill, doesn't really matter does it.

Bogie_with_Stu #58 Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:46 PM

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View Postboxtosser, on 24 August 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

My point is they could have stuck with a game using strictly historical aircraft and it would have still attracted a sizeable audience.  If they wanted to make Germany and Japan competitive at endgame without "paper" planes, they could have put the cutoff in .46 and the Germans would still have competitive top tier airplanes while hte Allies would get to play with their cool toys that didn't quite make it aka Spiteful, Sea Fury, P-80, Bearcat, etc.

Noted. And MY point was that all of this was a known factor over a year ago...certainly when you joined the game and flew your first sortie. WG didnt claim to have a perfectly historical game and then switch it up at the last minute. There was no deception here. So why are you complaining about something that you knew about when you signed on?

Venting I understand. Trying to make an actual argument against "paper planes" this late in the game is silly.

pickles64 #59 Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:47 AM

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German tech tree should have the Horton 229 then. It did fly several test flights, and more than likely , if built earlier, could have changed the war. Seen a NG special where they built the plane and hoisted it up on a tower, and shot radio waves at it. Old English chain radar would not have picked it up until it was 2 minutes away from the coast. Not enough time to even scramble fighters.

MagusGerhardt #60 Posted 26 August 2013 - 05:40 AM

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I'm betting that the Horten will come later.

*looks at avatar, then at sig*

In fact, I'm very much counting on it.

 

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