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German Premium - Ar.197

Ar197 Premium Aircraft Crew Training Preorder

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MagusGerhardt #1 Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:56 PM

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Some suggestions regarding the Tier IV preorder aircraft, the Arado 197.

First, seeing as one of the prime benefits of a premium vehicle here and in World of Tanks is that any aircrew from a same-class aircraft (in this case pilot only) can be placed on the vehicle without specific training for it or suffering a skill reduction.

The problem here with the Ar.197 is that there are no other German carrier aircraft in-game now, nor do I expect to see any at or after release.  Even going to the blueprint boards and the Blohm & Voss skunkworks in Hamburg will not provide enough aircraft to make a full German carrier fighter line.  

In response to this, I would suggest that when a barracks and removable crew are implemented in World of Warplanes that the Ar.197 be allowed to receive either light fighter *or* heavy fighter pilots without penalty, otherwise one of the primary purposes of the aircraft will be lost when the game goes live.

Secondly, the Ar.197's bomb ordnance loadout needs some adjustment.  This Arado began life in WoWP as a tier III, and was a bit too strong for that, I won't argue that point because I agree.  The Ar.197's dual 7.92s, dual 20mms and tight turning radius make it a strong contender in tier IV and V games.

The Arado's bombs, however, are very lacking.  It is still carrying the SC50 bombs carried by the tier II AGO Ao.192 heavy fighter.  Those bombs function well at tier II and III level battles, but their 1500 damage potential blasts begin to lose their luster at tier IV and are near useless at tier V and VI.

I wouldn't advocate putting SC100s on the Ar.197, but I would like to see an intermediate bomb size between the SC50 and SC100.

 

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pyantoryng #2 Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:10 PM

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The A6M1 gets two 60kg bomb that deals 1600 damage.

The F2A gets two 100lb bomb that deals 1200 damage.

Isn't the SC50 comparable with its peers? Also, the Ar 197 gets to carry four as opposed to its peers' two.

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rev01ution #3 Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:28 PM

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Well thought out and constructed post, Magus. +1

I agree on the first point, especially if there isn't a carrier-based line of planes in the pipeline before the launch date. Potential oversight by WG here.

bearrick #4 Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:42 PM

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While I definitely do agree with your first point, Magus, and especially when considering that the 197 is part of a preorder bundle, I have to question some of your second point.

It does get 4 bombs after all while all of its equal tier peers get only two.  I would only think that having any weight change should be limited to two racks to the current four.  But even so, the 50kg bombs only lack when the 197 is lowest tier in the bracket.  There are still some targets in a III-V match that 1500 damage could destroy at once, albeit not many.  And at top of the bracket, the 197 can drop all and take out the HQ IF the pilot so chose.  And I know of plenty GAs and a few of the lower tier heavies that can sometimes struggle with bombs for that very same reason.

What's more, since the only planes in that tier that can load heavier are the Russian GA and the German heavy, I don't see how changing it would improve overall effectiveness of the 197.  Each bomb does more than the American, less than the Japanese, and is on par with the stock LBSh.

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TheGreenTank #5 Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:32 PM

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Nooooooo!

Don't touch my baby!

TheGreenTank #6 Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:39 PM

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In all seriousness:
there may very well be a German CBF line in the future.

Remember the Chinese Type 59 came out when there were *no* Chinese tanks for about 6 months? Kind of like that.

As for the bombs... I never use bombs on mine lol, so personally I don't care, but it does seem comparable with its peers.

You have to remember, the HP of ground targets *greatly* varies according to plane tier - if you get stuck in a 5/6 average match, your bombs won't do much; if you get into a tier 2/3 average match...your bomb will be a nuke.

Whether that's balanced or not, I think is a place for another discussion related to tier-based-ground-target-HP mechanics. The Ar. 197's bomb is suitable for its tier.

Draconis76 #7 Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:36 PM

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I think the issue is that the Germans were not really a carrier nation, and thus had neither need nor desire to develop carrier suitable aircraft.

They had more than enough other hair brained ideas occupying their researchers :)

MagusGerhardt #8 Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:59 AM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 30 July 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

The A6M1 gets two 60kg bomb that deals 1600 damage.

The F2A gets two 100lb bomb that deals 1200 damage.

Isn't the SC50 comparable with its peers? Also, the Ar 197 gets to carry four as opposed to its peers' two.

Arado 197             SC50x4    1,500 damage, Blast Radius 70 meters
Mitsubishi A6M1    60kg x2    1,600 damage, Blast Radius 75 meters
Brewster F2A        45kg x2    1,200 damage, Blast Radius 70 meters

I would say that the individual bombs are comparable, based upon variations in weight directly affecting damage output and blast area.  I would contend that all the carrier fighter bombs are somewhat underpowered for the caliber of battles these three aircraft will regularly see.  I did not address this perceived shortcoming in the other carrier fighters because I created this thread to be specifically about the Arado, and I actually wanted to focus more upon my first point than the second.

View Postrev01ution, on 30 July 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Well thought out and constructed post, Magus. +1

I agree on the first point, especially if there isn't a carrier-based line of planes in the pipeline before the launch date. Potential oversight by WG here.

Thank you for the rep, I guess someone decided to nuke it.  And there will be no carrier based line of planes unless the development team takes a trip to fantasy land.  There were only two other German Naval Air Service fighters planned over the course of the entire war; the Bf.109T which the Arado was cancelled in favor of, and the Bv.155 (Also called the Me.155 because it began development as a Messerschmitt project.)  Everything else is fiction.

View Postbearrick, on 30 July 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

While I definitely do agree with your first point, Magus, and especially when considering that the 197 is part of a preorder bundle, I have to question some of your second point.

It does get 4 bombs after all while all of its equal tier peers get only two.  I would only think that having any weight change should be limited to two racks to the current four.  But even so, the 50kg bombs only lack when the 197 is lowest tier in the bracket.  There are still some targets in a III-V match that 1500 damage could destroy at once, albeit not many.  And at top of the bracket, the 197 can drop all and take out the HQ IF the pilot so chose.  And I know of plenty GAs and a few of the lower tier heavies that can sometimes struggle with bombs for that very same reason.

What's more, since the only planes in that tier that can load heavier are the Russian GA and the German heavy, I don't see how changing it would improve overall effectiveness of the 197.  Each bomb does more than the American, less than the Japanese, and is on par with the stock LBSh.

I agree, Bear, (apologies if that isn't a proper nicknamization of your handle) the bombs are not useless outside of a tier VI battle, just less than optimal.  As I point out earlier in this same post I feel that weak bombs are something shared by all the carrier fighters.  I would prefer that we have the option to mount something potentially useful rather than something that gets jettisoned right away in a tier VI match to enable better dogfighting ability.

Again I really wanted my first point to be the focus of the conversation rather than the second; I included it because I felt it was a holdover from this crate's days as a tier III and is in need of adjustment to reflect its new home in the Match Maker.

View PostTheGreenTank, on 30 July 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

In all seriousness:
there may very well be a German CBF line in the future.

Remember the Chinese Type 59 came out when there were *no* Chinese tanks for about 6 months? Kind of like that.

As for the bombs... I never use bombs on mine lol, so personally I don't care, but it does seem comparable with its peers.

You have to remember, the HP of ground targets *greatly* varies according to plane tier - if you get stuck in a 5/6 average match, your bombs won't do much; if you get into a tier 2/3 average match...your bomb will be a nuke.

Whether that's balanced or not, I think is a place for another discussion related to tier-based-ground-target-HP mechanics. The Ar. 197's bomb is suitable for its tier.

There is no basis in reality I can see that will allow a full German Naval Air Service line, because the Graf Zeppelin was never completed, Goering never allowed the German Navy the ability to design and procure their own aircraft, and aside from the 197 only the 109T and Bv.155 were proposed for service aboard a carrier that would never set sail with an aircrew.

The Ar.197 will never see a tier II/III fight again because it was moved up to tier IV. (With no changes I could detect to its stats or performance from tier III, Bear correct me if I am wrong, please.)

 

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rev01ution #9 Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:35 AM

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Yes, well returning to the first point- Crew training benefits are at least 33% of the overall benefits of owning a premium plane if you look at it in as - Credit making benefit, Crew training benefit, Free Exp Benefit. Really, its even more since free exp will be easily had on all elited planes.

I'd be interested what WG thinks about this and if there would be any backlash from pre-order people once they realize what they're missing out on... assuming no changes are made and the planes remain classified as it is now.

Mercsn #10 Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:54 AM

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As I play the German planes a lot, buying the bundle and NOT getting any crew training out of the crew trainer would stink.

I agree the first point is very valid that it should train.  I can imagine the Ju-87 training heavy or "fighter/bomber" crews and the ar-197 training fighter crews.

On the second point, I'm not so sure.  I actually carry these bombs on my Bf110E when I figure I might need to take out some AA (or just work on my Destroyer medals for my legendary medal!).   Most targets end up near 1500hp in the battles my T5 Bf110E faces.  I dot not yet own an ar-197, but plan on testing one out before I buy the bundle.  I feel actually being able to pop four targets and then straffe to finish off could be very powerful, but I imagine if we get the Ju-87 that ordnance loadout might change.  The only down side is that we now have beefed up AA, but the flip side of that is, you get 3k worth of damage twice whereas the other nations only get 1600 or 1200 dmg twice (similar sized bomb, half the count). In that regard the ar-197 is actually fairly strong on the ground punch.

I do already have a problem with the imaginary planes when there were so many interesting and great historical planes from this era.  I'd hate to see more UFO discoveries just to flesh out a line regardless of how well they balance them.

Definitely points for WG to consider though depending on how the flesh out the German Tech Tree.  I'm still not sure why we have an anonymous neg repper attacking the forums; maybe they're related to the Green Paint Bandit that was attacking Washington D.C.

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jeffreyac #11 Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:14 AM

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Holy cow, you guys are putting bombs on that great little dogfighter??

MagusGerhardt #12 Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:30 AM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 31 July 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

Holy cow, you guys are putting bombs on that great little dogfighter??
Don't see a reason not to with the possibility of them being used before dogfighting to influence match Superiority.
I'm not completely daft; I don't dogfight with bombs attached.  If I run into a furball before I've hit targets I jettison the SC50s, of course. :honoring:

 

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TheGreenTank #13 Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:49 AM

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I still think a CBF german branch - or "mini" branch - could potentially happen, but who knows.

For all the benefits & fun factor you get with the Ar.197, I don't really mind that particular drawback even if there wind up being no other German CBFs.

MagusGerhardt #14 Posted 31 July 2013 - 07:49 PM

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View PostTheGreenTank, on 31 July 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

I still think a CBF german branch - or "mini" branch - could potentially happen, but who knows.

For all the benefits & fun factor you get with the Ar.197, I don't really mind that particular drawback even if there wind up being no other German CBFs.

I am interested to hear what you think could form the basis for such a line.  The Bf.109T if introduced would likely branch off of the Bf.109B and the Bv.155 would most likely branch off from either the Me.109F or Me.109G.   There was a naval version of the Ju.87 Stuka, but that doesn't really impact anything here because it was a pure bomber/ground attack.

The Ar.197 is indeed a fun plane, but I am somewhat bothered at the prospect of having to take a portion of the money I have already payed WG to obtain this plane and use it to train up a pilot specifically for the Ar.197.  That move is widely and correctly perceived as stupid when done in World of Tanks, my feelings on this are strengthened by the fact that the Bsh-1 and XFL-1 preorders will both have a wide variety of aircrews available to put behind the controls from day one of live release.

View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 31 July 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Drop em' in front of an "enemy" GA Aircraft.

A valid tactic, but one I've only managed to pull off once.  I was flying directly above and parallel with an enemy IL-2(t) that was lined up for a gun run on one of my team's ground targets.  I dove toward the target to pull ahead of the Sturmovik and dropped my SC50s in a line pattern.  That poor bird flew right in the middle of the pattern as they started going off.

I haven't arranged those circumstances again since then, but it gave me serious jollies at the irony of a fighter bomb killing a GA.

 

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Draconis76 #15 Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:56 AM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 31 July 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:


I haven't arranged those circumstances again since then, but it gave me serious jollies at the irony of a fighter bomb killing a GA.

And new meaning to the term: Fighter-bomber! :)

bearrick #16 Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:26 AM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 31 July 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

I agree, Bear, (apologies if that isn't a proper nicknamization of your handle) the bombs are not useless outside of a tier VI battle, just less than optimal.  As I point out earlier in this same post I feel that weak bombs are something shared by all the carrier fighters.  I would prefer that we have the option to mount something potentially useful rather than something that gets jettisoned right away in a tier VI match to enable better dogfighting ability.
Again I really wanted my first point to be the focus of the conversation rather than the second; I included it because I felt it was a holdover from this crate's days as a tier III and is in need of adjustment to reflect its new home in the Match Maker.
Just Bear is fine, Herr Gerhardt.
And I'm not trying to diminish your first point, just sharing my thoughts on your second.
In all honesty, I don't really feel that bombs carried by the CF class are "weak".  No, they aren't typically as big as those carried by low tier GAs and heavies, but I don't feel that they need to be as big hence the multipurpose type of role applied to the class.  They can take out lighter ground targets or use them offensively against ground pounders or defensively if needed.  For the class, it's sort of a tradeoff.  Sacrifice movement performance for an extra weapon type, whereas GAs more frequently need bombs to either survive or fulfill their offensive roll to greatest potential.
I'll be honest, I used to use the bombs a lot in the early phases of this plane.  Now I rarely - if ever - carry them simply because of the current state of the ground game.  There are a few times I will still recommend carrying any bombs in a CF plane, and I know that it's all personal choice; but with the 197 already being the slowest tier IV and sacrificing even more speed just to load 4 bombs, albeit a temporary loss until all dropped, is already a big sacrifice.  I could only see the 197 justified with anything larger if it would be granted a speed increase, less than 30 but more than 15 - just enough to keep it in line with the other planes.

Edited by bearrick, 01 August 2013 - 02:27 AM.

401shield.png 401st Bomb Group STICKER US ARMY AIR CORPS 615th Bomb Squadron.jpg 615th Bombardment Squadron


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MagusGerhardt #17 Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:40 PM

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Hathore, Mugsy?

Any thoughts from your teams on this matter?

 

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MagusGerhardt #18 Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:35 AM

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Self serving bumpage.

Really would like some Dev/Community Manager input on this, to at least let us know that the issue I have brought up is something our great team is aware of.   :great:

 

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bearrick #19 Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:49 AM

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Well now that Mugsy_ isn't sick anymore...

401shield.png 401st Bomb Group STICKER US ARMY AIR CORPS 615th Bomb Squadron.jpg 615th Bombardment Squadron


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MagusGerhardt #20 Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:06 AM

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View Postbearrick, on 09 August 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

Well now that Mugsy_ isn't sick anymore...

Oh, man, I hadn't heard.   :unsure:   And I'd just seen him and wished him well during the 15th celebratory weekend.  Well, by proxy, anyway.  The WoWP Messenger has this nifty ability to act almost like mail in that it will deliver messages to offline recipients when they log back in.   :medal:   Nice feature!

Hope you feel better, Mugsy_, and if this catches your attention my concerns are centered more upon the training required for a German pilot to hop in this beauty than the bombs.

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787





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