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Simple fix to Ramming -- don't credit any kills!


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caeman #41 Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

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You don't want to incentivize bad players for ramming, so you want to deny them a kill.  And you say neither plane will get a kill.  Doesn't this potentially punish a "good" or innocent pilot that didn't want to ram?  But there they are, destroyed...and no kill for their displeasure.

Do you get what I am trying to get out now?  You would consciously propose a system that punishes good players just for the sake of punishing bad players?

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EasyEight #42 Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:12 PM

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You don't want to incentivize bad players for ramming, so you want to deny them a kill.  And you say neither plane will get a kill.  Doesn't this potentially punish a "good" or innocent pilot that didn't want to ram?  But there they are, destroyed...and no kill for their displeasure.
Do you get what I am trying to get out now?  You would consciously propose a system that punishes good players just for the sake of punishing bad players?

Nope, how is it punishing anyone if a ram doesn't equal a kill reward?? It's neutral, it neither rewards nor punishes anyone. It's just a wash, no reward and no penalty.

caeman #43 Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:19 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Nope, how is it punishing anyone if a ram doesn't equal a kill reward?? It's neutral, it neither rewards nor punishes anyone. It's just a wash, no reward and no penalty.

You honestly believe that is fair to the innocent 2nd party?  Really?


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petersleepy #44 Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:28 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Nope, how is it punishing anyone if a ram doesn't equal a kill reward?? It's neutral, it neither rewards nor punishes anyone. It's just a wash, no reward and no penalty.
The person that is being rammed is penalized for not being able to contribute further in the battle AND on top of that, they don't get credit for the kill.

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EasyEight #45 Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:31 PM

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The person that is being rammed is penalized for not being able to contribute further in the battle AND on top of that, they don't get credit for the kill.

So what? Neither do you get any credit or sympathy from the game if you have system lag and end up in a mountain through no fault of your own...

Anyways, go here to cast your vote!!

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petersleepy #46 Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:51 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

So what? Neither do you get any credit or sympathy from the game if you have system lag and end up in a mountain through no fault of your own...

Anyways, go here to cast your vote!!

http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1
Weren't you the one that was trying to make a "fair" system to prevent ramming?

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_Laserguided_ #47 Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:56 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Then why not also enable the destruction of ground targets by airplane crashes?? After all, if WoWP regards one set of moving points in the program intersecting another set of moving points as a collision (aka a ram) for air-to-air stuff, then why not for ground targets?? Why wouldn't an airplane crashing into an AA gun, radar station ship, etc., result in a Ground Attack "kill" being rewarded to that player??
It should be enabled to be consistent with the rest of the game and the fact the plane is a weapon beyond what it can shoot and or deliver in the way of bombs and or rockets.

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Heck, there are more examples of Kamikaze attacks in WW2 than aerial ramming as a deliberate tactic.
Of course, given the obvious that flying into a ship was easier and clearly a better possible return on the investment.
In this environment that is not the case, so if you are the last plane and or possible victim #5 I will point my plane at yours and attempt to shoot you down every chance I get. And if that ends up with us ramming, which 99% of time will be a head to head scenario, you will have ample time to avoid or press the attack.  

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2. Nope, just don't want to incentivize ramming by bad players to make up for being bad players
Clearly there many you claim are "bad players" who have far more victories per games played and planes downed per game than yourself who if the circumstances arise will take out another plane by any means necessary.
This idea that ramming isn't fair and or should be treated like the plague is much the same argument in COD like games where the "Run and Gun" types want snipers done away with because they want to be free to "Bunny hop" around the map and not have to worry about someone popping their melons from across the map. Again, it's silly to pluck one projectile from the game and declare it obscene because a group of folks want a more friendly kill zone.
If the plane isn't a viable weapon in your mind you should campaign for the smallest machinegun to have the same punch of a 30mm cannon, since that is the logical conclusion of your point.


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EasyEight #48 Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:40 PM

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Weren't you the one that was trying to make a "fair" system to prevent ramming?

Nope, not prevent it, just trying to see if there's a method to reduce game starts with scraps of flaming pixels falling down and players running headlong into each other to score a kill. Someone had a good idea which was a "Dodging" Skill to represent that last minute twitchy reflex a pilot may have to avoid a ram or collision.

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Clearly there many you claim are "bad players" who have far more victories per games played and planes downed per game than yourself who if the circumstances arise will take out another plane by any means necessary.

I really don't get this fierce defense of the current ramming system in WoWP. I mean, despite everything, ram attacks at best comprised a FRACTION of  1% of aircraft engagements. I do tabletop wargaming as well, and it reminds me of rules in which the author read ONE instance of something really cool, and built game rules around it, making what was a rare and exceptional event into an everyday occurence.

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This idea that ramming isn't fair and or should be treated like the plague is much the same argument in COD like games where the "Run and Gun" types want snipers done away with because they want to be free to "Bunny hop" around the map and not have to worry about someone popping their melons from across the map.

I think the current ramming rewards are poorly crafted. IN your example, the game system essentially rewards the "bunny hopping" you hate because of the kill incentive.  It makes an aerial kill you earn through a tough dogfight the equal of one scored by ramming your lower tier plane into a higher tier one. Why do that? Go ahead and ram if it will contribute to your team's victory or if you're annoyed or lazy, but why should you get rewarded for it?? Yes, I know it's an arcade game and all that, but it's like building an MMO that rewards your Knights for jumping off the battlements on someone to score a "kill." So you end up with a certain percentage of players flinging themselves off the walls, it's stupid. Yes, let's reward suicide as a game incentive!!

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Again, it's silly to pluck one projectile from the game and declare it obscene because a group of folks want a more friendly kill zone.
If the plane isn't a viable weapon in your mind you should campaign for the smallest machinegun to have the same punch of a 30mm cannon, since that is the logical conclusion of your point.

Go ahead, ram away -- destroy the other fella -- but why do you get credit for the kill? And if you do, why not allow Kamikaze attacks on ground targets that they don'
t right now???

_Laserguided_ #49 Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:



I really don't get this fierce defense of the current ramming system in WoWP.

Funny response given you stared a thread on the subject...


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I mean, despite everything, ram attacks at best comprised a FRACTION of  1% of aircraft engagements.

Given unlimited ammo, no blackouts, and a host of other realistic things ignored in the game the above is really a moot point...


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I do tabletop wargaming as well, and it reminds me of rules in which the author read ONE instance of something really cool, and built game rules around it, making what was a rare and exceptional event into an everyday occurence.

The fact the plane is no less a projectile than the bullets and cannon shells it spits out is something you can't avoid... You basically want the rain not to get people wet...


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I think the current ramming rewards are poorly crafted. IN your example, the game system essentially rewards the "bunny hopping" you hate because of the kill incentive.

I don't hate bunny hoppers, like rammers and ramming in WoP they are legitimately part of the game and in COD and Black OPs I snipe them routinely. I deal with them, and the "bunnies" have to deal with the snipers.  One or the other wanting to rid the game of either to sanitize the killing zone is laughable.


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  It makes an aerial kill you earn through a tough dogfight the equal of one scored by ramming your lower tier plane into a higher tier one. Why do that? Go ahead and ram if it will contribute to your team's victory or if you're annoyed or lazy, but why should you get rewarded for it??


Because it KILLED an enemy. No way around that fact, and in some case it WINS the game. How many games have you won with your brand of playing? More, or less than 50%? Should one NOT be rewarded for winning the game for their team? You seem more worried about having a more safe and sane place to fly more so than if your team wins or loses.


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Yes, I know it's an arcade game and all that, but t's like building an MMO that rewards your Knights for jumping off the battlements on someone to score a "kill."
So you end up with a certain percentage of players flinging themselves off the walls, it's stupid. Yes, let's reward suicide as a game incentive!!

Let's not forget that rammers cannot continue on and take out more of the other team. They are rewarded for damaged caused, which is consistent with the game and shouldn't be omitted anymore than you putting a couple rounds into someone and given the kill...

Stupid? Denying the plane is a weapon beyond what it can shoot and delivers is what? Reasonable?


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Go ahead, ram away -- destroy the other fella -- but why do you get credit for the kill?

Because I killed the other guy?

Why should you get credit for a kill for hitting a person with 2HP left and you happen to hit the guy with a stray bullet? Using your logic that shouldn't be allowed.

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And if you do, why not allow Kamikaze attacks on ground targets that they don'
t right now???

They should... Ground targets should be damaged by planes if bullets, cannon shells, rockets and or bombs do so...


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caeman #50 Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

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airplanes should be able to ram ground targets.

destroyed planes shoul have the chance to damage other planes, and ground targets if their dead hulk lands on one.

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Dsembr_Rein #51 Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:54 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Nope, not prevent it, just trying to see if there's a method to reduce game starts with scraps of flaming pixels falling down and players running headlong into each other to score a kill. Someone had a good idea which was a "Dodging" Skill to represent that last minute twitchy reflex a pilot may have to avoid a ram or collision.
If you're not the one jousting the first plane you see, what's the problem? It's a 1-for-1 trade, no one is giving either team a numerical advantage. If a tier 4 on my team takes down a 6 on their team, even better. And as for a "Dodge skill" representing anything that adds player ability without the player having to do anything is ridiculous. You are the pilot, that twitchy last-minute reflex should come from you, not the game playing itself.
The reward/punish rhetoric surrounding this thread's discussion on ramming seems a little misguided. Ramming is too complex to assign blame, the only thing that matters is that each players' actions resulted in the destruction of an enemy plane, thus a kill. Intention is a moot point, as is the skill of those involved. Bad players ram good players, good players ram bad players, bad players ram bad players, etc.... Sometimes it's on purpose, sometimes it's not. Using your plane as a weapon in and of itself, regardless of historical accuracy, is a game mechanic meant for us to use. I've been involved in plenty of ramming incidents, and while they can be frustrating, you are no more or less dead than if they had used a rocket, bombs, or old fashioned guns.
I really hope this vocal minority isn't going to ruin a perfectly fine game mechanic.

BrushWolf #52 Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:36 PM

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View Postcaeman, on 26 July 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:


destroyed planes shoul have the chance to damage other planes, and ground targets if their dead hulk lands on one.

For the first few seconds after destruction would be a good inbetween option, dangerous to the plane that got the kill but not to some random victim 2k feet below.

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LyssaG #53 Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:48 AM

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View Postcaeman, on 26 July 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

airplanes should be able to ram ground targets.

destroyed planes shoul have the chance to damage other planes, and ground targets if their dead hulk lands on one.
Completely agree!

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Bogie_with_Stu #54 Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:05 AM

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You guys are still arguing about this?? This is like...thread number 76 on the subject?

Ramming is stupid and lazy IMHO...but more on the lazy side. I get the "win at all costs" thinking, but when you ram on purpose..you are saying "I dont have enough skill to down the other plane through the art of flying and shooting". You can argue that fact until you are blue in the face, but it IS a fact. If your plane is badly damaged and your reasoning is that it's a good trade off...thats fine. It might even be a good trade off. but that doesnt change the fact that you are taking the "easy way out" (i.e., lazy)

The argument that ramming is historically correct is LAUGHABLE. I cant believe any semi-intelligent pilot would make that argument. In this game, ramming is responsible for close to 20% of the planes destroyed. In history, it may have accounted for 0.001%. Just because it may have happened is not a reason to include it in the game (nor is it a viable argument to KEEP it in the game). More pilots have seen UFO's than have ever gotten a "real" ram kill...should WG put UFO's in the game? More pilots have been downed by bird strikes than rams....where are the flocks of geese in the game?

You want to keep ramming in the game? Fine. Just say that. Trying to use silly historical arguments just makes you look less intelligent (and desperate).


Dead carcass damage was a part of the game early on....and was exploited by some very skilled pilots. It may come back as there seems to be a lot of players that want it. Ground targets shouldnt be immune to damage from crashing aircraft...that is just way too unrealistic as well.

The above comments are my opinion based on the facts as I understand them. YMMV

EasyEight #55 Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:59 PM

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You are the pilot, that twitchy last-minute reflex should come from you, not the game playing itself.

Not really, because in an actual plane the pilot's action doesn't have to get interpreted by a user interface/mouse and the computer, go through a router to a series of servers and into the main game server to have the result processed. That happens really fast, but as fast as actual human reflexes.


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You want to keep ramming in the game? Fine. Just say that. Trying to use silly historical arguments just makes you look less intelligent (and desperate).


Yep, and what's more, I'm not even arguing to eliminate ramming, I'm just saying don't credit a kill for ramming someone, that's all. So you may want to ram out of spite (I'm gonna die, but so will you!), or team objectives (If I ram their leading plane, my team will win), or boredom...but why do you get to score a kill that is the equal of a kill earned through dogfighting??

LyssaG #56 Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:07 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 27 July 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Yep, and what's more, I'm not even arguing to eliminate ramming, I'm just saying don't credit a kill for ramming someone, that's all. So you may want to ram out of spite (I'm gonna die, but so will you!), or team objectives (If I ram their leading plane, my team will win), or boredom...but why do you get to score a kill that is the equal of a kill earned through dogfighting??
A kill is a kill.  It doesn't matter how you got it.

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EasyEight #57 Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:33 PM

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A kill is a kill.  It doesn't matter how you got it.

Soooo...if there was a bug you could exploit, in which, say, your rockets acted like guide missiles and would score aircraft kills every time -- wouldn't matter, despite how game genre busting it is? Maybe if I could bring a "Foo Fighter" into the game, 'cause Foo Fighters were blamed for downing a score or more of aircraft -- can I use that?? Say, why not let the German player get to use the Rurstahl X-4 Air to Air missile when they hit a higher Tier, since they did use them by the end of the war. Then they could just circle over their base and fire missiles at the other team, Whattya say, is a kill a kill, no matter what??

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LyssaG #59 Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:42 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 27 July 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Soooo...if there was a bug you could exploit, in which, say, your rockets acted like guide missiles and would score aircraft kills every time -- wouldn't matter, despite how game genre busting it is? Maybe if I could bring a "Foo Fighter" into the game, 'cause Foo Fighters were blamed for downing a score or more of aircraft -- can I use that?? Say, why not let the German player get to use the Rurstahl X-4 Air to Air missile when they hit a higher Tier, since they did use them by the end of the war. Then they could just circle over their base and fire missiles at the other team, Whattya say, is a kill a kill, no matter what??

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LOL, another apples to oranges comment.  I love how much people resort to these type of comparisons.  If you are dead, does it matter if you drowned, died in a fire, were shot, or had a piano dropped on your head.  No, it doesn't, you are still dead.  This isn't a bug.  It isn't a broken mechanic.  It is reality.  If two planes collide, they most often will fall from the sky as flaming wreckage.  They have been killed, just as effectively as if they were shot down, or blown up by a bomb.  You are still dead.  I still killed you, or perhaps you still killed me.  Either way, we killed each other.  We get a kill.

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EasyEight #60 Posted 27 July 2013 - 03:02 PM

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Either way, we killed each other.  We get a kill.

So, yeah -- no matter how screwy it is, or buggy, or odd, if it scores you a kill, you're all for it!!




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