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Simple fix to Ramming -- don't credit any kills!


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EasyEight #21 Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

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You made my point, FreeFOXMIKE. Yes, out of tens of thousands of aerial dogfights you cite a handful of instances, and they are notable because the pilots SURVIVED...yet this extreme outlier is being made into a normal tactic in this game because there is no downside. In RL, you die if you ram another plane. Makes it hard to repeat the tactic again. In game, you get credit for a "kill" and move on to the next game. Ramming was not a STANDARD tactic. It happened, but from tens of thousands of engagements across 6 years of war, the actual use or ramming as a combat tactic was statistically close to zero. So why does the game reward this outlier behavior, and why do we see such fierce defense of it in the game???
Go ahead and ram, just don't reward anyone for doing so...no kill, no reward, you'll see more people trying to dogfight their way into a kill even in a lousy tiering match instead of suiciding at the first chance they get.

Edited by EasyEight, 26 July 2013 - 04:09 PM.


caeman #22 Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:17 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

1. Neither player is credited with a "kill" for a plane destroyed in a ram.

2. The player that initiated the ram PAYS for the repairs to the plane they rammed.

1)  You would punish an innocent pilot who maybe got rammed from behind, underneath, on top or from the front...that didn't want to ram.

2)  There is NO programmatical way to determine this.  This has already been covered.  You have not discovered anything new that has not already been proposed, hashed and argued about since Closed Beta.

Ramming is part of the game.  Get used it or leave.  Stop proposing impossible solution, or solutions that would punish innocent pilots.

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BrushWolf #23 Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:22 PM

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Would you tell this guy he doesn't get the kill?



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caeman #24 Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:30 PM

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A6M3 Zero?  Time for me to go researching.

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FreeFOXMIKE #25 Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:42 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

You made my point, FreeFOXMIKE. Yes, out of tens of thousands of aerial dogfights you cite a handful of instances, and they are notable because the pilots SURVIVED...yet this extreme outlier is being made into a normal tactic in this game because there is no downside. In RL, you die if you ram another plane. Makes it hard to repeat the tactic again. In game, you get credit for a "kill" and move on to the next game. Ramming was not a STANDARD tactic. It happened, but from tens of thousands of engagements across 6 years of war, the actual use or ramming as a combat tactic was statistically close to zero. So why does the game reward this outlier behavior, and why do we see such fierce defense of it in the game???
Go ahead and ram, just don't reward anyone for doing so...no kill, no reward, you'll see more people trying to dogfight their way into a kill even in a lousy tiering match instead of suiciding at the first chance they get.


this list is   larger Russian alone had 250 to 500+ ram attacks (250 proven 500 claimed) your in a game that  the dog fighting area is as small as some air racing courses and they all going the same  way you yes you will have  more midairs then normal and the the RUSSIAN,GERMAN,AND THE SPECIAL UNITS OF JAPAN (not the kamikaze) it was a tactic

Aerial ramming or air ramming is the ramming of one aircraft with another. It is a last-ditch tactic in air combat, sometimes used when all else has failed. Long before the invention of aircraft, ramming tactics in naval warfare and ground warfare were common. The first aerial ramming was committed by Pyotr Nesterov in 1914 during the First World War, and in the early stages of World War II the tactic was employed by Soviet pilots who called it taran for "battering ram"; the same word is used in the Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian and Bulgarian languages

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BrushWolf #26 Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

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It is Wikipedia but the information seems reasonably correct. We have the A6M1 and the A6M5 in the game but there were several more models.

https://en.wikipedia...ubishi_A6M_Zero

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EasyEight #27 Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

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This has already been covered.  You have not discovered anything new that has not already been proposed, hashed and argued about since Closed Beta. Ramming is part of the game.  Get used it or leave.  Stop proposing impossible solution, or solutions that would punish innocent pilots.

Fine, then don't penalize anyone -- just don't credit a KILL either.  And your attitude is grand, ain't it?? GET USED TO IT OR LEAVE! So why should we even have any discussion if we should just accept everything as it is in the game?? Isn't that the point of BETA TESTING, to uncover issues in the game?

The fact that there are lots of threads on this by lots of people means that a LOT of people have an issue with how ramming is handled in WoWP, and it obviously ISN'T being handled the way a lot of people would like to see it handled. I like the game, but I ain't a blind fanboy -- there are things that can be made better, and this is one of them.

petersleepy #28 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:02 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Fine, then don't penalize anyone -- just don't credit a KILL either.  And your attitude is grand, ain't it?? GET USED TO IT OR LEAVE! So why should we even have any discussion if we should just accept everything as it is in the game?? Isn't that the point of BETA TESTING, to uncover issues in the game?

The fact that there are lots of threads on this by lots of people means that a LOT of people have an issue with how ramming is handled in WoWP, and it obviously ISN'T being handled the way a lot of people would like to see it handled. I like the game, but I ain't a blind fanboy -- there are things that can be made better, and this is one of them.
That's just like saying CoD is a good game because a lot of people buy it. The general population just doesn't understand how to successfully avoid rams in-game.

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EasyEight #29 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:09 PM

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his list is   larger Russian alone had 250 to 500+ ram attacks (250 proven 500 claimed) your in a game that  the dog fighting area is as small as some air racing courses and they all going the same  way you yes you will have  more midairs then normal and the the RUSSIAN,GERMAN,AND THE SPECIAL UNITS OF JAPAN (not the kamikaze) it was a tactic

In the ETO after D-Day the 8th Air Force alone flew an average of 2300 combat sorties a day, so by the end of the war simple math gives you close to 700,000 combat missions in one part of one theatre of the war. IF you add up 6 years of aerial combat across multiple theatres of war, it is easily in the many MILLIONS of combat sorties. Sure, not all resulted in a dogfight, lets say that only 10% resulted in a dogfight -- so 70,000 dogfights. SO just in that one part of the ETO in that limited timeframe your ram attacks across the WHOLE WAR equate to 0.7% of combat actions.

What can we guess for the rest of the war in other theaters?? If we say that there were 7 million combat sorties, and 700,000 dogfights, then your "ramming is a standard tactic" comes out to 0.07% of combat actions....

FreeFOXMIKE #30 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:09 PM

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View Postpetersleepy, on 26 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

That's just like saying CoD is a good game because a lot of people buy it. The general population just doesn't understand how to successfully avoid rams in-game.


yes its faked  lol but you get the idea (they should have both banked right and up.)
http://www.break.com...llision-2367549
midair with 2 Small piston planes all made it.

Edited by FreeFOXMIKE, 26 July 2013 - 05:11 PM.

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caeman #31 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:10 PM

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By not crediting a kill, you are punishing a potential innocent pilot.  Why should they be denied a kill because someone else rammed from an odd angle they couldn't avoid?  And I could negate someone getting an ace by intentionally ramming them.  They are destroyed and don't get that 5th kill.  Voila!  I, the rammer, won!

The current system is fair.  Both planes are often destroyed and both an air kill.

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EasyEight #32 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:12 PM

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The current system is fair.  Both planes are often destroyed and both an air kill.
I respectfully disagree. Per my math fun above, you're rewarding a tactic utilized some 0.07% of the time with a kill, and making it equally as valid as the one you get from a tough dogfight...

Edited by EasyEight, 26 July 2013 - 05:13 PM.


FreeFOXMIKE #33 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:14 PM

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honestly do not give  a kill credit (I don't give a flip flap),but will I use it yes it the situation   warrants  it yes .but don't  take away the option to do it.  (you can even subtract a kill and if needed I will still use it if the ends out way means)
but you posted and opinion and opinions a great ,but don't get upset if you don't sway ppl on your opinions ,I have at this time 2100 + postings  and you think they agreed with them all NO, but it got ppl thinking ,and maybe just may be another great a better based of mine,in the end its about the game ,and not about our little glory hounding or hunting
all our little jousting will be mute once it released but we will have our gained skill, experiences,and know what AC line to choose to get what we want in the game not to mention the Awarded AC we gain.

Edited by FreeFOXMIKE, 26 July 2013 - 05:18 PM.

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caeman #34 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:15 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I respectfully disagree. Per my math fun above, you're rewarding a tactic utilized some 0.07% of the time with a kill that in game, and making it equally as valid as the one you get from a tough dogfight...

And yet, you and no one else can propose a solution that be...

1)  Programmed
2)  Programmed to be 100% accurate in determining who is at fault
3)  Cannot be gamed, resulting the punishment of an innocent pilot

I would rather have the current system that at least gives the innocent 2nd party a kill than any solution anyone has proposed.  Really, just think through any situation you can think of in the 360 degree sphere around a plane and imagine how any loop hole could be gamed or an innocent could trigger and be punished unfairly.

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_Laserguided_ #35 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:30 PM

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A plane is no less a projectile than the bullets and cannon shells that it shoots.  It's kinda silly to wish to remove one projectile while being ok with others.


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LyssaG #36 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:44 PM

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View Post_Laserguided_, on 26 July 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

A plane is no less a projectile than the bullets and cannon shells that it shoots.  It's kinda silly to wish to remove one projectile while being ok with others.
Amazing how many people don't get this.

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caeman #37 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:47 PM

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View PostJarethG, on 26 July 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Amazing how many people don't get this.

It truly is disappointing.

"I want to be able to fly at 600 MPH!"
"I want to be able to fly through the other planes so we don't ram! Because, flying is hard and I don't like hard games!"
"I want my bullets to not hit my team so I don't have to worry about aiming!"
"I want the game to aim for me!"

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petersleepy #38 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

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View Postcaeman, on 26 July 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

It truly is disappointing.

"I want to be able to fly at 600 MPH!"
"I want to be able to fly through the other planes so we don't ram! Because, flying is hard and I don't like hard games!"
"I want my bullets to not hit my team so I don't have to worry about aiming!"
"I want the game to aim for me!"
This topic in a nutshell http://forum.worldof...ow-so-much/#top

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EasyEight #39 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

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honestly do not give  a kill credit (I don't give a flip flap),but will I use it yes it the situation   warrants  it yes .but don't  take away the option to do it.  (you can even subtract a kill and if needed I will still use it if the ends out way means)

Sure, sounds fair to me. Maybe you want to ram your cripple into another plane to help your team, or whatever, but don't reward that with a "kill" that incentivizes bad players to ram to overcome being, well, bad players...

Quote

Really, just think through any situation you can think of in the 360 degree sphere around a plane and imagine how any loop hole could be gamed or an innocent could trigger and be punished unfairly.

It's not punishing anyone to say any ram kill doesn't reward you with a kill for either party. It just says a ram doesn't get an air kill credit.

Quote

A plane is no less a projectile than the bullets and cannon shells that it shoots.  It's kinda silly to wish to remove one projectile while being ok with others.

Then why not also enable the destruction of ground targets by airplane crashes?? After all, if WoWP regards one set of moving points in the program intersecting another set of moving points as a collision (aka a ram) for air-to-air stuff, then why not for ground targets?? Why wouldn't an airplane crashing into an AA gun, radar station ship, etc., result in a Ground Attack "kill" being rewarded to that player??  Heck, there are more examples of Kamikaze attacks in WW2 than aerial ramming as a deliberate tactic. And it could make for interesting team games -- you could set up a team game on Pacific Map in which Team 1 must Kamikaze attack ships on the Team 2 side, while Team 2 must stop them.

EasyEight #40 Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:58 PM

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"I want to be able to fly at 600 MPH!"
"I want to be able to fly through the other planes so we don't ram! Because, flying is hard and I don't like hard games!"
"I want my bullets to not hit my team so I don't have to worry about aiming!"
"I want the game to aim for me!"

1. I will, once I get a Tier X jet!
2. Nope, just don't want to incentivize ramming by bad players to make up for being bad players
3. Nope, bullets is bullets
4. Nope, that's my job, only a handful of Ace Badges, but I I'm working on it




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