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Simple fix to Ramming -- don't credit any kills!


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EasyEight #1 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:06 PM

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Here's one way to "fix" ramming if WoWP won't do something to reduce the actual chance of a ram:

1. Neither player is credited with a "kill" for a plane destroyed in a ram.

2. The player that initiated the ram PAYS for the repairs to the plane they rammed.

So not only would you NOT get a kill for ramming, you end up paying a penalty...so ramming becomes unattractive except as a "Screw you!" anger fit. Sure, you'll still see accidental rams during dogfights and players banging into each other at the start of the game, but the lower tier planes habit of doing Kamikaze rams into higher tier planes would become less frequent.

FreeFOXMIKE #2 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:12 PM

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another game  took this approach ,but ramming is still there

they have full blown bombers If I in my single engine,single seat can take out a fully armed bomber with 2-4 engine and 8-12 crew its a good deal in my book ,and kill credit be danged the bandit bomber was still stopped b4 it got to my base.

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LipeO #3 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:13 PM

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That's not a bad idea but what about the Kamakazi? They did it on purpose and scored virgins in heaven for it didn't they?  :teethhappy:

I was thinking they should make "Dodging" a skill... make it solely for ramming purposes. If you and another guy have really high dodging skills then you will almost NEVER ram each other.. at least the chances will be very low.  If someone WANTS to ram, go nuts but his chances of ramming a guy with high dodging skills are cut WAY down.

This can also work for guys who accidentally run into each other while doing battle..

EasyEight #4 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:14 PM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 26 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Won't work. More people will complain they got nothing for it. Kill credit, but fine the players a %age of their XP/credits for reckless misuse of a military aircraft.

But why "kill credit" at all for a ram?? Are there any examples, other than rare desperation tactics at the end of WW2, where a country rewarded a "kill" to a pilot that rammed enemy planes at the loss of his own?

rocketbrainsurgeon #5 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 26 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Won't work. More people will complain they got nothing for it.

This.  The problem with ramming is that everyone involved believes they are innocent.

EasyEight #6 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

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Quote

I was thinking they should make "Dodging" a skill... make it solely for ramming purposes. If you and another guy have really high dodging skills then you will almost NEVER ram each other..

That's a good idea!!

BitterClinger #7 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:19 PM

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I think you have to give them credit for the kill. I also don't think a "fine" would work out very well.  Since I have been playing the game with my daughter the last few days, I've come to realize there are a LOT more people who simply want to ram you for the one kill than I previously thought. It's still not a majority of lower tier players, but there are a lot of them.

Look, my daughter has a 0.35 kill rate. I'm sure a lot of new players have similar stats. Turn fighting is a lot more common at lower tiers than it is at higher tiers, and ramming opportunities present themselves more often in turn fights. So, a player can leave a battle with triple their kill rate simply by ramming their opponent.

I think the solution is Darwinism. Some players are going to learn when a "ramming opportunity" is about to present itself and turn away from it, and other players are going to play the game into higher tiers happy to ram each other in turn fights.

FreeFOXMIKE #8 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:20 PM

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"That's not a bad idea but what about the Kamakazi? They did it on purpose and scored virgins in heaven for it didn't they?"
think you may be combining wars there.
and they are different approaches
one was for large targets Carriers,  battleships and the like and you were expected to die
ramming you had a chance to live and to it again several Russian,and German  pilots rammed more then once,here is an account of one American  pilot fro ww2
United States
On 10 May 1945 over Okinawa, Marine Lieutenant Robert R. Klingman and three other pilots of VMF-312 climbed to intercept a Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu ("Nick") twin-engined heavy fighter flying reconnaissance at 25,000 feet (7,600 m), but the "Nick" began climbing higher. Two of the FG-1D Corsairs ceased their pursuit at 36,000 feet (11,000 m), but Marine Captain Kenneth Reusser and his wingman Klingman continued to 38,000 feet (12,000 m), expending most of their .50 caliber ammunition to lighten their aircraft. Reusser scored hits on the "Nick's" port engine, but ran out of ammunition, and was under fire from the Japanese rear gunner. Klingman lined up for a shot at a distance of 50 feet (15 m) when his guns jammed due to the extreme cold. He approached the "Nick" three times to damage it with his propeller, chopping away at his opponent's rudder, rear cockpit, and right stabilizer. The Toryu spun down to 15,000 feet (4,600 m) where its wings came off. Despite missing five inches (13 cm) from the ends of his propeller blades, running out of fuel and having an aircraft dented and punctured by debris and bullets, Klingman safely guided his Corsair to a deadstick landing.[26] He was awarded the Navy Cross
http://en.wikipedia..../Aerial_ramming
and from the actual citation
AWARDS AND CITATIONS
Navy Cross
Awarded for actions during the World War II
The President of the United States of America takes pleasure in presenting the Navy Cross to First Lieutenant Robert R. Klingman (MCSN: 0-28160), United States Marine Corps Reserve, for extraordinary heroism and distinguished service in the line of his profession as Pilot of a Fighter Plane in Marine Fighting Squadron THREE HUNDRED TWELVE (VMF-312), Marine Air Group THIRTY-THREE (MAG-33), FOURTH Marine Aircraft Wing, in aerial combat against enemy Japanese forces during the assault on Okinawa, Ryukyu islands, on 10 May 1945. Finding his guns jammed when he closed within firing range of an enemy reconnaissance plane during an extended pursuit at extremely high altitudes, First Lieutenant Klingman persisted in his attacks in the face of heavy fire from the Japanese tail gunner until the propeller of his plane severed a sufficient portion of the tail surface of the hostile plane to destroy it. By his outstanding airmanship, indomitable fighting spirit and courageous devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Klingman prevented the enemy from obtaining valuable photographs of friendly installations, and his gallant conduct upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
General Orders: SPOT AWARD, Commander, Amphibious Forces Pacific: Serial 00608 (SofN Signed January 26, 1948)
Action Date: May 10, 1945
Service: Marine Corps
Rank: First Lieutenant
Company: Marine Fighting Squadron 312 (VMF-312)
Regiment: Marine Air Group 33 (MAG-33)
Division: 4th Marine Aircraft Wing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Awarded for actions during the World War II
(Citation Needed) - SYNOPSIS: First Lieutenant Robert R. Klingman (MCSN: 0-28160), United States Marine Corps, was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight as Pilot of a Fighter Plane in Marine Fighting Squadron THREE HUNDRED TWELVE (VMF-312), Marine Air Group THIRTY-THREE (MAG-33), FOURTH Marine Aircraft Wing, in aerial combat against enemy Japanese forces in the Pacific Theater of Operations during World War II.
General Orders: Heroes U.S. Marine Corps 1861 - 1955 (Jane Blakeney)
Action Date: World War II
Service: Marine Corps
Rank: First Lieutenant
Company: Marine Fighting Squadron 312 (VMF-312)
Regiment: Marine Air Group 33 (MAG-33)
Division: 4th Marine Aircraft Wing
http://projects.mili...ecipientid=8386

Edited by FreeFOXMIKE, 26 July 2013 - 02:21 PM.

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LyssaG #9 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

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More importantly, how do you determine who "initiated" the ram.  In most cases, it takes two to ram.

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General_Catastrophe #10 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:45 PM

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I agree, no kill for ramming is an excellent idea.

FrostyNoid #11 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:49 PM

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You know, I took someone's advice here a couple of weeks ago when it came to ramming.  It takes 2 to usually cause these situations.  Don't play chicken and fly like if you hit something you will crash.  I started flying a little more conservatively and pulling away from a collision when I saw it coming and guess what?  I hardly get rammed anymore!

EasyEight #12 Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:56 PM

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Quote

More importantly, how do you determine who "initiated" the ram.  In most cases, it takes two to ram.

I'm sure they could easily determine that based on the angle of attack of the ramming parties, and any last second maneuvers toward or away from the foe.

Oh, and why not  add a new Color to a player's symbol if they are a habitual rammer? Like in WOT someone who does too many team kills get's a BLUE icon color. Why not add a RED icon color to habitual rammers??

petersleepy #13 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:01 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

I'm sure they could easily determine that based on the angle of attack of the ramming parties, and any last second maneuvers toward or away from the foe.

Oh, and why not  add a new Color to a player's symbol if they are a habitual rammer? Like in WOT someone who does too many team kills get's a BLUE icon color. Why not add a RED icon color to habitual rammers??
There is nothing wrong with ramming. If you don't like ramming, don't choose to participate in it.

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EasyEight #14 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:16 PM

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There is nothing wrong with ramming. If you don't like ramming, don't choose to participate in it.

LOL! Really, that's your answer, just don't get rammed? Sure, I'm a lot more aware of other planes in a dogfight and take action to avoid collisions, but when some guy is intent on ramming you it's not always possible to avoid "participating." And obviously it's not just me, this isn't the first thread on fixing ramming...to me, the game is less enjoyable given the INCENTIVES to ram. Remove the INCENTIVES and it will take care of itself...

LyssaG #15 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:19 PM

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View Postrossleanda, on 26 July 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I agree, no kill for ramming is an excellent idea.
Why, it is a perfectly valid tactic, that was actually used during the war.  Especially the Russians made a habit of it.

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EasyEight #16 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:31 PM

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View PostJarethG, on 26 July 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Why, it is a perfectly valid tactic, that was actually used during the war.  Especially the Russians made a habit of it.
Really? So they were trained for months in flight operations, and then encouraged to ram their expensive plane with their expensive selves into the enemy?? No, ramming was the *exception* not the norm, a desperation tactic undertaken by desperate and near crazed people that almost always resulted in both planes and both pilots dying. That's why we see a few rare instances of pilots being given medals for surviving such an attack, there was a single "ramming" group organized late in the war by Germany (Sonderkommando ELBE -- only 8 confirmed kills out of hundreds of attacks on Allied bombers), etc. I see no reason to take an historically rare event and encourage it with in-Game incentives in WoWP......remove the incentives. You'll still have people deciding to ram other people, they just won't get *rewarded* for it.

Edited by EasyEight, 26 July 2013 - 03:41 PM.


LyssaG #17 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:37 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Really? So they were trained for months in flight operations, and then encouraged to ram their expensive plane with their expensive selves into the enemy?? No, ramming was the *exception* not the norm, a desperation tactic undertaken by desperate and near crazed people that almost always resulted in both planes and both pilots dying. I see no reason to take an historically rare event and encourage it with in-Game incentives in WoWP...
...remove the incentives. You'll still have people deciding to ram other people, they just won't get *rewarded* for it.
I will see if I can find the link again, but the Russians had over 200 successful rams.

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LyssaG #18 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

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http://forum.worldof...ram#entry247091

A whole topic with many links.

http://en.wikipedia....ng#World_War_II

http://forum.worldof...ram__st__40#top

Another great topic on this....


https://en.wikipedia...n_of_Poland  Oh look the Poles did it too!

https://sites.google...-aerial-ramming

Ramming sucks when it happens, but whether you like it or not, it is a historically valid tactic, that some nations used a lot, not as an exception.

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petersleepy #19 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

LOL! Really, that's your answer, just don't get rammed? Sure, I'm a lot more aware of other planes in a dogfight and take action to avoid collisions, but when some guy is intent on ramming you it's not always possible to avoid "participating." And obviously it's not just me, this isn't the first thread on fixing ramming...to me, the game is less enjoyable given the INCENTIVES to ram. Remove the INCENTIVES and it will take care of itself...
You can easily avoid someone that is trying to ram you in a head on by simply not shooting and making it hard for him to shoot you. Then, you can start to turn earlier and have the advantage on the next pass. Additionally, it is extremely hard to ram someone who is in a dogfight that isn't circle jerking. Ramming someone in a dogfight is essentially pure chance and is equally likely to happen with a friend or with an enemy.

View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Really? So they were trained for months in flight operations, and then encouraged to ram their expensive plane with their expensive selves into the enemy?? No, ramming was the *exception* not the norm, a desperation tactic undertaken by desperate and near crazed people that almost always resulted in both planes and both pilots dying. I see no reason to take an historically rare event and encourage it with in-Game incentives in WoWP...
...remove the incentives. You'll still have people deciding to ram other people, they just won't get *rewarded* for it.
In the beginning of the war, soviet planes=cheap and german planes=expensive

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FreeFOXMIKE #20 Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:52 PM

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View PostEasyEight, on 26 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

But why "kill credit" at all for a ram?? Are there any examples, other than rare desperation tactics at the end of WW2, where a country rewarded a "kill" to a pilot that rammed enemy planes at the loss of his own?
United States[edit]
On 10 May 1945 over Okinawa, Marine Lieutenant Robert R. Klingman and three other pilots of VMF-312 climbed to intercept a Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu ("Nick") twin-engined heavy fighter flying reconnaissance at 25,000 feet (7,600 m), but the "Nick" began climbing higher. Two of the FG-1D Corsairs ceased their pursuit at 36,000 feet (11,000 m), but Marine Captain Kenneth Reusser and his wingman Klingman continued to 38,000 feet (12,000 m), expending most of their .50 caliber ammunition to lighten their aircraft. Reusser scored hits on the "Nick's" port engine, but ran out of ammunition, and was under fire from the Japanese rear gunner. Klingman lined up for a shot at a distance of 50 feet (15 m) when his guns jammed due to the extreme cold. He approached the "Nick" three times to damage it with his propeller, chopping away at his opponent's rudder, rear cockpit, and right stabilizer. The Toryu spun down to 15,000 feet (4,600 m) where its wings came off. Despite missing five inches (13 cm) from the ends of his propeller blades, running out of fuel and having an aircraft dented and punctured by debris and bullets, Klingman safely guided his Corsair to a deadstick landing.[26] He was awarded the Navy Cross.[
Starting in August 1944, several Japanese pilots flying Kawasaki Ki-45 and other fighters engaging B-29 Superfortresses found that ramming the very heavy bomber was a practical tactic.[18] From that experience, in November 1944 a "Special Attack Unit" was formed using Kawasaki Ki-61s that had been stripped of most of their weapons and armor so as to quickly achieve high altitude. Three successful, surviving ramming pilots were the first recipients of the Bukosho, Japan's equivalent to the Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor, an award which had been inaugurated on 7 December 1944 as an Imperial Edict by Emperor Hirohito.
Japan[edit|edit source]
The Japanese also practiced ramming, both by individual initiative and by policy. Individual initiative was involved in the bringing down of a lone B-17 Flying Fortress The Flying Swede on 8 May 1942 by a Nakajima Ki-43 fighter plane. After three of the Japanese fighters had each made two attack passes without decisive results, the bomber's pilot, Major Robert N. Keatts, made for the shelter of a nearby rain squall. Loath to let the bomber escape, Sgt. Tadao Oda executed a head-on ramming attack, known as taiatari (体当たり tai-atari?, "body strike").[14] Both aircraft were destroyed with no survivors. Sergeant Oda was posthumously promoted to lieutenant for his sacrifice
Greece[edit]
On 2 November 1940, Hellenic Air Force pilot Marinos Mitralexis shot down one Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 bomber, then, out of ammunition, brought another down by smashing its rudder with the propeller of his PZL P.24 fighter. Both aircraft were forced into emergency landings, and Mitralexis used the threat of his pistol to take the four-man bomber crew prisoner. Mitralexis was promoted in rank and awarded medals.
http://en.wikipedia..../Aerial_ramming
https://sites.google...-aerial-ramming

Edited by FreeFOXMIKE, 26 July 2013 - 03:56 PM.

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