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Vote: A unique approach to the "MM Crisis" for new players


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Poll: Matchmaking System (136 members have cast votes)

Do you think the current matchmaker is fine/fair?

  1. Yes. (34 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. No. (53 votes [38.97%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.97%

  3. Yes, with exception of Tier 2's shouldn't see Tier 4's (unless flighted with 3+) (49 votes [36.03%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 36.03%

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Draconis76 #41 Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:53 PM

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View PostWulfNose, on 18 July 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

A fair match? In the eye of the beholder. So, that is why a fair match is one where the pilot chooses the level of challenge. With a Flex MM, a pilot choosing an "A. One Tier" match is choosing a fair match. If that same pilot is ready to take his chances with a "B. Two Tiers" then that pilot will be in a fair match, because the pilot made his own choice. And, if ready to fully participate, the pilot selects "C. Unlimited." It is all about having some control over their fate. That is what "fair" is about, and that is why the Flex MM will save WoWP. Wulf

Well I disagree with you there. A fair match is one where all else is equal other than skill. Technically that is true currently on an overall match level, but since any given pilot still has to perform as an individual to reap any lasting benefits from a win (xps, credits), in practice it is not.

Choice, to me, just means either more inequity or that everyone will choose equity. The former doesn't solve anything and the latter is more easily handled by leaving choice out and simply biasing MM towards equity.

WulfNose #42 Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:13 PM

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View PostDraconis76, on 18 July 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Well I disagree with you there. A fair match is one where all else is equal other than skill. Technically that is true currently on an overall match level, but since any given pilot still has to perform as an individual to reap any lasting benefits from a win (xps, credits), in practice it is not.

Choice, to me, just means either more inequity or that everyone will choose equity. The former doesn't solve anything and the latter is more easily handled by leaving choice out and simply biasing MM towards equity.

The scenario we are trying to avoid is this:

"I starting playing WoWP. They gave me four 'Tier 1' planes. Had quite a time learning to fly, but it was great fun. With experience, I bought a Tier II plane. Sweet! But, when I tried to play, Tier IV Uber Planes shot me down at once. Seems like it was every game. When I bombed, my Tier II bombs had no effect on Tier IV targets, if I could even get there. Tier IV AA shot my Tier II down like it was paper. The game is totally UNFAIR, but worse than that, it is just no fun to play. They should rename it "Hopeless Targets." My friends all quit, too. So boring, being a target. Pilot"

So call it what you want, Drac, but please help implement a Flex MM so that players have choices. People with choices are happy customers. Wulf

Draconis76 #43 Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:24 PM

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View PostWulfNose, on 18 July 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:


So call it what you want, Drac, but please help implement a Flex MM so that players have choices. People with choices are happy customers. Wulf

I understand the scenario. I just don't think that a flex system is the best solution. Have you not read any of my posts in this threat? lol

WulfNose #44 Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:28 PM

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View PostDraconis76, on 18 July 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

I understand the scenario. I just don't think that a flex system is the best solution. Have you not read any of my posts in this threat? lol

Yes, I've read the posts. But the three tier issue extends throughout the game. Chose the point where you want the players to quit, and fail to protect them from planes 2 tiers above them. That's when they will quit. Wulf

Edited by WulfNose, 18 July 2013 - 03:29 PM.


jeffreyac #45 Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:16 PM

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Well, again, I respectfully disagree. I do recognize that you're passionate about the idea, and I respect that, but while there are many things I wish were different about the game and that annoy me - this just isn't near the top of the list, so I don't see that the game needs 'saving' in this way.Either way, though - I understand we're not going to change your mind on the forums. Best of luck, and no matter what happens on launch with the matchmaker, hope to see you there!

edit to add: wulf, I'd hate to think we're balancing your matchmaker around Tier II's, and new folks....  that seems to be the argument there, and it makes no sense to me to make a sweeping change to the entire matchmaker just to avoid your new-tier-II burnout scenario.

How about the compromise - we tweak the tier II's in the matchmaker, but leave the rest be? Personally I don't see the need, but I could see that as a step that maybe everyone could live with?

Edited by jeffreyac, 18 July 2013 - 03:18 PM.


WulfNose #46 Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:33 PM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 18 July 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Well, again, I respectfully disagree. I do recognize that you're passionate about the idea, and I respect that, but while there are many things I wish were different about the game and that annoy me - this just isn't near the top of the list, so I don't see that the game needs 'saving' in this way.Either way, though - I understand we're not going to change your mind on the forums. Best of luck, and no matter what happens on launch with the matchmaker, hope to see you there!

edit to add: wulf, I'd hate to think we're balancing your matchmaker around Tier II's, and new folks....  that seems to be the argument there, and it makes no sense to me to make a sweeping change to the entire matchmaker just to avoid your new-tier-II burnout scenario.

How about the compromise - we tweak the tier II's in the matchmaker, but leave the rest be? Personally I don't see the need, but I could see that as a step that maybe everyone could live with?

You miss the point entirely. The WTFMM is defective throughout the game. The only reason the Tier II only change gained traction is that the Seal Club had moved on to higher tiers and were just throwing a bone to the Flex MM initiative. In fact, it was just done to derail the effort  It was never and is not my argument to just patch Tier II matches. I am all for fixing any other aspect of the game, but with a broken MM, the game itself is not viable. It does not matter how enhanced a game is once they shut the servers down. Wulf

Edited by WulfNose, 18 July 2013 - 03:33 PM.


jeffreyac #47 Posted 18 July 2013 - 04:28 PM

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OK, no, I don't miss the point - I see and understand, just completely disagree with you. I feel the current matchmaker system IS viable, that the bottom tier can compete and be effective, and that (since the makeup of both teams is nearly identical) the system is fair. I don't believe just because you're bottom tier you're instantly going to be swarmed by all five of the enemy's top tier. I believe that, even as bottom tier, you're normally the same tier as 1/3 of the enemy planes, and within a tier of 2/3 of the planes - and the 1/3 of the enemy that is two tiers above you is not cause for immediate panic, as you have guys on your team that are also two tiers above you. I honestly believe that even tweaking the tier II's is not necessary - just that it might make an acceptable compromise; if not, then no worries.

Bottom line - you believe it's broken, and I don't.  I would ask that you keep in mind that there are folks like me who are not active 'seal clubbers' as you say, but still feel there is nothing wrong with the current system - remember, just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're doing something wrong...  :)

Guess we'll just have to see what happens, I guess!

Edited by jeffreyac, 18 July 2013 - 04:29 PM.


WulfNose #48 Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

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OK, understood. We'll make a side bet, then. We'll bet the game on it. If you are right, the game will prosper. If I am right, the game will fail utterly, or at least fail to reach its full potential. That makes our bet about $100 million Euros. Did you know that players often complain in game about the MM? Are they wrong, too. Are they wrong that they do not enjoy the game? Wulf

WulfNose #49 Posted 18 July 2013 - 07:03 PM

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Well then you have completely solved the problem, yes? Everyone WILL be happy. I was just trying to at least allow players to even out the equipment advantages IF THEY WANT TO. The Seal Club has demonstrated that it has the power to derail the argument I made with red herring, anecdotal stories of how they killed 6 B-29's with their Spad, and that weaker players can just go play something else. I admit defeat. The game will be what the game has always been. Not, what it could have been. Due diligence, COMPLETE. I will continue in my duty as an OB pilot to report bugs. Wulf

jeffreyac #50 Posted 18 July 2013 - 10:19 PM

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Wulf, I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way - I understand you feel strongly about your point of view, and I respect your opinion, I just don't share it.

G2Wolf #51 Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:19 PM

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View PostWulfNose, on 18 July 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

The scenario we are trying to avoid is this:

"I starting playing WoWP. They gave me four 'Tier 1' planes. Had quite a time learning to fly, but it was great fun. With experience, I bought a Tier II plane. Sweet! But, when I tried to play, Tier IV Uber Planes shot me down at once. Seems like it was every game. When I bombed, my Tier II bombs had no effect on Tier IV targets, if I could even get there. Tier IV AA shot my Tier II down like it was paper. The game is totally UNFAIR, but worse than that, it is just no fun to play. They should rename it "Hopeless Targets." My friends all quit, too. So boring, being a target. Pilot"

So call it what you want, Drac, but please help implement a Flex MM so that players have choices. People with choices are happy customers. Wulf
This scenario has happened with literally every single person I've tried to introduce to the game so far  :sad: Tier2s stand damn near no chance against a tier4.

WulfNose #52 Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:19 PM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 18 July 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Wulf, I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way - I understand you feel strongly about your point of view, and I respect your opinion, I just don't share it.

I no longer have a point of view. Tomorrow, I am going to work on my tiller and weed the garden. I may say. "pew, Pew, PEW!" while killing weeds. Over the weekend, I plan to revise the interest rates portion of my math course. I received approval to require a specific calculator, and that will make helping students much easier. And, I'll play out the 3x event in the hopes of getting beyond my LBSh. Only two more planes (the IL-2 and IL-2(t) and I will have met my OB objective. Then, I can just fill in my planes and wait for Launch. Have a good weekend! Wulf

Draconis76 #53 Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:22 PM

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View PostWulfNose, on 18 July 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Yes, I've read the posts. But the three tier issue extends throughout the game. Chose the point where you want the players to quit, and fail to protect them from planes 2 tiers above them. That's when they will quit. Wulf

But I want a system naturally biased towards 1 tier spread. 2 tier spread matches would only happen when demographics absolutely require them at that time, and possibly a small-ish chance of occurring randomly.

That said, there does get to a point where someone has committed enough time to a game that they are willing to accept a few more things they are less keen on. It is not a given than someone tier 7 or 8, for example, would suddenly stop playing just because they got a 3 tier spread.

WulfNose #54 Posted 19 July 2013 - 12:20 AM

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Actually, I cannot say that I have ever seen WG itself do anything in response to anything. That does not mean they have not, but I have no evidence of it.

That aside, I made my case, ironed out a great many details, offered to explain the entire system at the whiteboard, and was confident the system would work well for everyone. I submitted the arguments, solutions, and revisions to the "jury" of the Forum, and I lost. I have no issue with that. What I was proposing was to give players a choice of the level of adversity they personally wished to face. While I am no star, my performance in OB should show that it is not me that I wish to protect. I find an overmatched battle just not to be entertaining. But, I am a very determined person, and I will persevere in this OB until launch, buy my package(s) before then, and play up through the VI's. But, determined does not mean pig-headed. My Flex MM initiative is done. That does not mean I take my football and stomp off. I will still participate in bug reporting and otherwise cleaning up the game. OR, ideas like my "Attack the Train" variant. I would LOVE to play out that variant. But, I have work to do. Weeds in the garden. Have to mow the lawn. My firm's web site needs to be rebuilt, and that means I have to do it. I have to revise my math course. A major trial coming up in August, life sentence. Firewood to split for fall. A deer hunt, to avenge the deer that wrecked our car. ($11,000+. but insured!) Six kids and six grandchildren. So, onward, But, not tilting at windmills. My donkey is tired, and my dog would prefer to go rabbit hunting. Wulf

slipweasel #55 Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

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I will say this again. When the game opens full and the pop increases, I have to believe the MM will have more options to get the tiers in a more uniform direction. I understand your concerns but how many options do they really have with so little online. With bigger #s I really believe that we will see a smarter looking MM.

LyssaG #56 Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

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View Postslipweasel, on 20 July 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I will say this again. When the game opens full and the pop increases, I have to believe the MM will have more options to get the tiers in a more uniform direction. I understand your concerns but how many options do they really have with so little online. With bigger #s I really believe that we will see a smarter looking MM.
I see people keep saying this,. but that overlooks that the current MM will actively avoid making single tier matches, and will actively try to fill a match using multiple tiers, fulfilling the two tier spread.

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Xx_Lurid_xX #57 Posted 20 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

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I think when population of the game increases this will help even up the matches. I also have to comment that when I end up in a battle that I consider out of balance I think about history and the fact there was no choices. You had to fight whatever you came up against. I am no different than anyone else though it can be frustrating.LoL as soon as I posted I saw the previous post yes I said it also

Edited by Luridgaze, 20 July 2013 - 01:10 PM.


DracoArgentum #58 Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:43 AM

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Step one, cut the tier spread by one.

Step two, give T8 an option to never face T9 and 10. This will never happen, but I don't want to be playing with the jets. Its a very different game that I like less and can't paly anyway since there is too much lag to play such fast aircraft.

DracoArgentum #59 Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:46 AM

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View PostJarethG, on 20 July 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I see people keep saying this,. but that overlooks that the current MM will actively avoid making single tier matches, and will actively try to fill a match using multiple tiers, fulfilling the two tier spread.

I don't think so. The WoT one certainly doesn't. It's quite common to get very low spread matches during prime time on weekends.

Draconis76 #60 Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:00 AM

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View PostDracoArgentum, on 21 July 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

I don't think so. The WoT one certainly doesn't. It's quite common to get very low spread matches during prime time on weekends.

The WoT one used to though. The narrower spreads there are recent. The WoWP MM seems based on the old WoT model, not the current one.




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