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Vote: A unique approach to the "MM Crisis" for new players


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Poll: Matchmaking System (136 members have cast votes)

Do you think the current matchmaker is fine/fair?

  1. Yes. (34 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. No. (53 votes [38.97%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.97%

  3. Yes, with exception of Tier 2's shouldn't see Tier 4's (unless flighted with 3+) (49 votes [36.03%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 36.03%

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Draconis76 #21 Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:34 AM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 16 July 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Ultimately, no matter what we do, the perception of fairness is always going to be much lower for those who get a win. It happens to us all.. even us vets. This week, we been catching "Team Synchro Dart" on our side almost all the time.. so we were cussing our losses too.. [yes pappabear.. I have been cussing at lawn/air darts]

It makes me wish there was a button that let me not get in with anyone who has a greater than 20% chance to lawn dart/air dart.. But that's infeasible and wouldn't be a solution. Next would be team killing rocket/bomb (oh wait we had that...nerf to the timers)..,. and so on.

It's always going to be round-robin, ring around the rosy on that one..

My Ar 80 just having gotten shot down by another 109 B that has way to much firepower for darting even to be an option, I am not too sympathetic on that one.

And as you may recall, bomb use against aircraft is something I am not keen on either :\

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Now on to another thought about the other conceived options:  Any of those that give preferential tiering treatment to a player by selecting a button, COULD be used in abuse.. either by getting away from the top tiers/elite players..  or by the vice versa..  to come and club seals..

One way I could think of to combat that, is to limit the amount of "tier protected" battles you have to maybe X or YY number of battles per day... and cut that feature off automatically once you reach ~ZZZ battles.. That's an idea.

I do agree that the 'choice' option is very problematic.

WulfNose #22 Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:35 AM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 17 July 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

As I stated in multiple occasions, Wulf.. I LIKED this idea the best of all other ideas but the fix 2/3 option. However, it needs to be nailed out. It needs to proposed in such a way that we can limit the abuse of said system.. Such as a 10 can say, "Nope, I want fly 1 tier difference" and so he doesn't have to deal with 8's that can out turn him if he messes up... or a good player can say "nah, I wanna fly just against 3's in my 4.. where I know I can BnZ"... etc.

Again, never discounted your ideas.. just your approach at explaining it's feasibility, and you haven't ironed out any details on it. So far, a majority of people are saying either "No, MM isn't fair" or 'Yes, it's fine.. BUT tier 2/3 need that change as well.." .. by a landslide with the latter.

Keep on getting people in matches to come to the forum..

I see people daily who complain that they got in with tier 7's..  in their 6...  or 5... or they complain they're a 7, and they keep having to face 5's which force them to turn.. zOMG.. there's complaints on both ends of this spectrum.. and the more people we get on this topic, voting and discussing.. the more things might change.

The system as I have described it is only "upward looking" so a 4 cannot elect to face only 3's. I think that applies to 10's, as well, although 10 is above my pay grade. Example: A 4 can select only A. same B. two (and face 4's and 5's), and C., "unlimited" and face whatever the MM throws at him, presently 2 up / 2 down, depending. So, the Flex MM is a "shield," never a "sword," as we say in regard to PPO's (Personal Protection Orders.) Hard to be clear enough in these limited words, but the restrictions are intended to limit upward exposure. I should make a table. In fact (if I was coding), I would be tempted to have this table driven. A row for each tier, and 3 columns, for A, B, and C. Have to prep for court tomorrow. Seems there are los drogas right here in River City, as the song goes. Wulf

LyssaG #23 Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:11 AM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 16 July 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

I like this idea.. not too bad a thought. Similar functionality.. it gives them so many battles where they get top tiered.. but how would we do this? And how do we make sure the "elite" pilots aren't doing the same?
They already have something similar in WoT, so sayeth the guru's on their forums.  Apparently, the first 25 battles in a tank gets you some preferential MM.  I can only anecdotally confirm that it does seem that after around 25 battles, I started to tend to get more bottom tier matches.

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dmarsha9 #24 Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:24 PM

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I truly believe that the only way to make everyone happy. Old and new player is to have a skill based MM. You start off in the new player pool for the first 100 battles then are placed with pilots at your level. maybe have 3 levels: new player and those 45% and below, then 46% to 55%, and 56% and over. Taking my w/r as an example I'm bouncing between 55 and 56%. So I am in the 56% and over pool if my performance shows that you guys are beyond my skill set it would show and I would be moved back down to the lower pool. I think WG has said they wouldn't do a skill base but it's just an idea.

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jeffreyac #25 Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:20 PM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 17 July 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

18 and 12.. so far the No, redo the whole MM and the 'fix only tier 2/3" crowds are relatively close.. and blowing the "it's fine" crowd away.

See, Alex, when I look at that (as it stands as I type this, at least) I see about 25% say it's fine now, and about 45% that say it's fine with one minor tweak (removing II's from IV fights) - which says to me that 70% of the responders don't want a sweeping change to the MM. I'm kind of heartened by this, as I really feel, after spending a lot of time thinking about it, that the system isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

However, in your excellent initial post, you asked for concrete information and reasoning - so let me try to articulate that....

1) In the average three tier fight, there are about a third in each tier. That means for the folks in bottom tier, a third of the planes in the match are already same tier, and two thirds of the planes are within one tier difference. Yes, I know, the exact split depends on what the match maker has to work with - the worst I've seen in recent memory is a tier VI fight where half the airplanes on each side were tier VI's - but that still means, for the bottom tiered, that you're within one tier of half the airplanes in the match.

Bottom line: it's not like it's going to be your lone Tier IV against/paired with 29 other Tier VI's.

2) The largest complaint I've seen is people claiming the bottom tier can not compete. I firmly believe this is not true. What IS true is you have to be careful - generally, if you have a top tier fighter and make a mistake, or perhaps are careless, you may be able to use your aircraft performance/hit points/etc to get away and get another chance. This may not be true if you're bottom tier. It is still possible to be effective though. My suggestions:

2a) Watch your radar. You have to keep your SA higher if you're bottom tiered, and know what is going on around you.

2b) Stay on the edge (and a little behind) a group of friends. You can't be on the pointy end of the spear here - the goal is to avoid having to take the entire team by yourself. You'll do great against one-on-ones if played right - generally, you'll have more maneuverability, but like everything else it depends on the airplane. You absolutely can't charge off by yourself - you'll get bounced by 3 or 4, and an easy kill. (Note that this is also good advice for everyone!)

2c) Watch your targets. Hanging right behind the top-tier heavy and getting chewed by the tail gun is a bad idea. Head on passes with higher tiered heavy fighters is a bad idea. These things will kill you - but not because you're in a bottom tier, because they're not compensating for the weaknesses of your aircraft. In truth, it's like trying to boom and zoom a A6M5, or turn fight in a 109Z - both those things will kill you, too, and have nothing to do with the matchmaker.

Bottom line: the things you need to do as bottom tier are the same things you should do all the time (use your strengths, avoid enemy strengths, exploit weaknesses); they're just more critical as bottom tier because you may have less of a performance edge against the other aircraft, and therefore less margin for error.

3) Understand you may need to adjust your playstyle. A Tier V plane that would Boom and Zoom in a tier V match may not have the speed ability to get away from tier VII aircraft - so that strategy won't be as effective, but you'll also be more maneuverable. Don't be afraid to mix it up in the furball. Adjust your playstyle to maximize your planes strengths against the weaknesses of the plane you're flying - again, just like always!

Now, on this one - yes, there are times when you can (as bottom tier) find yourself outclassed performance-wise. This is why you can't go all lone-ranger out by your lonesome to engage bad guys - if you stay in a group (preferably at the edge of a group) you may be able to get help. It does suck when the bad guy has you outclassed as a bottom tier - but really, no more than it sucks when it happens as a middle or top tier (like when my GA gets bounced by light fighters who know what they're doing...) The fact that this occasionally happens is not a fault of the matchmaker; it's a side effect of having a lot of different airplanes in the mix, and it's going to happen occasionally. If you play smart, though, you minimize the chance of this happening to you!

This boils down to two basic ideas:

Keep your SA up, and use the strengths of your airplane to play against the bad guy's weaknesses.

These ideas are in no way different from how to be effective in ANY fight - bottom, mid, or top tier - and nothing prevents players from doing this effectively as bottom tier. This is why I think the match maker is fine as it is - there is a learning curve, yes, and new players will die as they learn - as we all did. It happens - heck, as experienced players, we die a lot.

But, if I had to sum it up in one sentence: it's not being bottom tier that will kill you, it's losing your situational awareness - and that can kill you in any tier of airplane.

Now, I voted that I think it's fine now, and that's what I believe. I would not mind a shift to allow II's to be sheltered as well, to help new folks, if that was the will of all of us here - but I don't see a need for a sweeping change.

As always, though - these are just my opinions, and count for no more or no less than everyone else's!

Edited by jeffreyac, 17 July 2013 - 01:23 PM.


Draconis76 #26 Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 17 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

See, Alex, when I look at that (as it stands as I type this, at least) I see about 25% say it's fine now, and about 45% that say it's fine with one minor tweak (removing II's from IV fights) - which says to me that 70% of the responders don't want a sweeping change to the MM. I'm kind of heartened by this, as I really feel, after spending a lot of time thinking about it, that the system isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

However, in your excellent initial post, you asked for concrete information and reasoning - so let me try to articulate that....

1) In the average three tier fight, there are about a third in each tier. That means for the folks in bottom tier, a third of the planes in the match are already same tier, and two thirds of the planes are within one tier difference. Yes, I know, the exact split depends on what the match maker has to work with - the worst I've seen in recent memory is a tier VI fight where half the airplanes on each side were tier VI's - but that still means, for the bottom tiered, that you're within one tier of half the airplanes in the match.

Bottom line: it's not like it's going to be your lone Tier IV against/paired with 29 other Tier VI's.

2) The largest complaint I've seen is people claiming the bottom tier can not compete. I firmly believe this is not true. What IS true is you have to be careful - generally, if you have a top tier fighter and make a mistake, or perhaps are careless, you may be able to use your aircraft performance/hit points/etc to get away and get another chance. This may not be true if you're bottom tier. It is still possible to be effective though. My suggestions:

2a) Watch your radar. You have to keep your SA higher if you're bottom tiered, and know what is going on around you.

2b) Stay on the edge (and a little behind) a group of friends. You can't be on the pointy end of the spear here - the goal is to avoid having to take the entire team by yourself. You'll do great against one-on-ones if played right - generally, you'll have more maneuverability, but like everything else it depends on the airplane. You absolutely can't charge off by yourself - you'll get bounced by 3 or 4, and an easy kill. (Note that this is also good advice for everyone!)

You have to have a 'little group of friends' for that. And they can't be bottom tiered or else whichever is in front is not going to be (and a little behind). And while you are on the edge, your team has less firepower actually in play. And the other team may go along the edge too.

Quote

2c) Watch your targets. Hanging right behind the top-tier heavy and getting chewed by the tail gun is a bad idea. Head on passes with higher tiered heavy fighters is a bad idea. These things will kill you - but not because you're in a bottom tier, because they're not compensating for the weaknesses of your aircraft. In truth, it's like trying to boom and zoom a A6M5, or turn fight in a 109Z - both those things will kill you, too, and have nothing to do with the matchmaker.

Your targets are watching you too though, and will often have both speed and maneuverability over you, especially if you are in a bottom tiered heavy.

Quote

Bottom line: the things you need to do as bottom tier are the same things you should do all the time (use your strengths, avoid enemy strengths, exploit weaknesses); they're just more critical as bottom tier because you may have less of a performance edge against the other aircraft, and therefore less margin for error.

And that's the thing.... less margin for error is less fun, especially to someone still learning. There are those with a higher tolerance for that kind of thing and you might be one of them, but they are the exceptions and make up a very small % of market share. Games that cater to the intensely hard core too far tend to fail.

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3) Understand you may need to adjust your playstyle. A Tier V plane that would Boom and Zoom in a tier V match may not have the speed ability to get away from tier VII aircraft - so that strategy won't be as effective, but you'll also be more maneuverable. Don't be afraid to mix it up in the furball. Adjust your playstyle to maximize your planes strengths against the weaknesses of the plane you're flying - again, just like always!

It is not a given that you will be more maneuverable. It is not a given that you will get the match ups you want. You are not playing against mindless drones.

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Now, on this one - yes, there are times when you can (as bottom tier) find yourself outclassed performance-wise. This is why you can't go all lone-ranger out by your lonesome to engage bad guys - if you stay in a group (preferably at the edge of a group) you may be able to get help. It does suck when the bad guy has you outclassed as a bottom tier - but really, no more than it sucks when it happens as a middle or top tier (like when my GA gets bounced by light fighters who know what they're doing...) The fact that this occasionally happens is not a fault of the matchmaker; it's a side effect of having a lot of different airplanes in the mix, and it's going to happen occasionally. If you play smart, though, you minimize the chance of this happening to you!

You may also end up in a fur ball with a lot less maneuvering room. If there were easy answers, then there wouldn't be such a small margin for error.

Quote

This boils down to two basic ideas:

Keep your SA up, and use the strengths of your airplane to play against the bad guy's weaknesses.

Which the 'bad guys' will also be doing, and on average in higher tier planes that have more to work with.

Quote

These ideas are in no way different from how to be effective in ANY fight - bottom, mid, or top tier - and nothing prevents players from doing this effectively as bottom tier. This is why I think the match maker is fine as it is - there is a learning curve, yes, and new players will die as they learn - as we all did. It happens - heck, as experienced players, we die a lot.

But again, the margins for error are smaller and you have less to work with. The bottom tiered pilot will almost always be less experienced than the top tiered simply because of the fact the top tiered pilot had to have flown more to have earned the higher tier plane. So the less experienced pilot is also more likely to be in the more disadvantaged situation.

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But, if I had to sum it up in one sentence: it's not being bottom tier that will kill you, it's losing your situational awareness - and that can kill you in any tier of airplane.

No matter how good your situational awareness is, you are still in a lower tier plane that is more fragile and more poorly armed than an equal class higher tier plane. It may or may not be more maneuverable than what you face.

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Now, I voted that I think it's fine now, and that's what I believe. I would not mind a shift to allow II's to be sheltered as well, to help new folks, if that was the will of all of us here - but I don't see a need for a sweeping change.

As always, though - these are just my opinions, and count for no more or no less than everyone else's!

Just my opinions back at you :) Only time and trial can tell which path is best....

Bogie_with_Stu #27 Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:57 PM

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"So what proposal did you actually have, besides insulting us (snipped) about something we have been supportive towards this whole time?
No sir! People like me and pappabear have been campaigning for positive changes for the new players, for a long while. If you don't like the ideas we come up with, that's one thing. But for you to insult us because we don't agree every single thing.. or that we don't praise your ideas as the best... that's not gonna buy our votes."


I didnt insult you, and I certainly didnt insult papa (you brought him into this conversation, not me). I stated facts, and then my opinions based on my experience here in the forums. If you were insulted by my descriptive tags, then I apologize. That does not make them any less accurate. Also, I couldnt care less about your praise...that is not why I make suggestions...and I dont need your vote.

I have never seen you campaign for positive changes. I HAVE seen you telling everyone that you know best. I HAVE seen you explaining, ad nauseum, why your opinion is always the right one. I have seen a great deal of technical information about the different plane's attributes and nerfing/buffing numbers. Your posts always look the same to me.."ok, here is where you are wrong and I am right".
I have seen you offer to new players to come fly with LIGS so they can learn to play like YOU do. What about the 80% or so of players who have no interest in playing at your level? Not everyone here is as competitive as you are, or as detail oriented, or as driven to be better. Some folks just come here to fly planes for an hour after dinner.

If you want to help THEM, then I suggest you forget all about the technical crap and numbers...and just make a safe zone for new players up to tier 4. That would work out like...

Tier 1 through 4 - New players, casual players, players who have computer issues, the very young and possibly the very old players. Goals are to have fun, burn off some steam and socialize.
(1 tier spread)

Tier 5 through 7 - Serious players and gamers, dedicated to being successful at the game and willing to put long hours in to accomplish that goal. Goals are to reach the tier 8,9, and10 tier planes.
( some small changes at tier 5, otherwise stays as is)
Tier 8 through 10 - Hard core players who are on the cutting edge of the games development. Highly competitive and dedicated. Goals are to be the very best of this elite group and to rule in eventual clan wars.
(stays as is)

I have no desire whatsoever to get into a pissing contest with you Alex, or anyone else here....but you'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind to NOT see that there is a huge disparity gap here between the "elite" and highly skilled pilots and the guys who are coming in here and complaining about getting their arses handed to them by a plane 2 tiers higher than their best plane. Come on down from the mountain top for a bit and really look at what they want and need....and you will see it has nothing at all to do with hit points or gun damage assessments. They need the early stages of this game to A) be fun while remaining challenging, B) be less stressful and frustrating, C) build confidence to move on to the higher tiers.

These are my opinions and views. My only goal is to see less frustration in the newer players and more retention due to a higher "fun factor". The whole "just suck it up noob and learn to fly!!" line is getting old.

jeffreyac #28 Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:57 PM

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View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Your targets are watching you too though, and will often have both speed and maneuverability over you, especially if you are in a bottom tiered heavy.


True - except that if you're bottom tiered heavy, then so are the bad guys. It balances out that way - and in that bottom tier heavy match, that means most folks are the same tier (the bottom one). So no problem, right? And, if you are outclassed by the plane you're facing - well, that can happen. There is no guarantee of a fair fight at any tier, any time. My top tier can face a more agile opponent, or get boom n zoomed off the face of the battlefield - it can happen, has happened, and will happen again. Tier is not the sole determining factor there.

View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

And that's the thing.... less margin for error is less fun, especially to someone still learning. There are those with a higher tolerance for that kind of thing and you might be one of them, but they are the exceptions and make up a very small % of market share. Games that cater to the intensely hard core too far tend to fail.


I would argue that we can't balance the whole game around the folks who are still learning, but I'd like to as much as possible keep the argument away from skilled vs unskilled and more towards what the match maker should look like, all other things being equal. I don't see what we have now as being 'hard core', just a working system.


View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

It is not a given that you will be more maneuverable. It is not a given that you will get the match ups you want. You are not playing against mindless drones.




Certainly correct here - but again, not tier dependent. If I'm top tier with a turning fighter, I might end up facing off against a more maneuverable opponent. or an opponent who can catch me in my boom and zoom fighter. These things can happen regardless of tier - same tier will have the same issues, and we wouldn't want it otherwise, because we WANT a good mix of airplanes in there. Wouldn't be as fun if all the airplanes were the same, right?

View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

You may also end up in a fur ball with a lot less maneuvering room. If there were easy answers, then there wouldn't be such a small margin for error.

true - it can and does happen that you end up in a messy furball where you can't watch everyone, a couple get onto your tail that you can't shake, and you die. This happens to me all the time. But it's also not tier dependent - it can easily happen when you're top tier as well.



View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Which the 'bad guys' will also be doing, and on average in higher tier planes that have more to work with.




See, no they don't. They have the same mix your team does. That's what I don't get here - it's not your team of IV's against an enemy team of VI's, it's a nearly equal matchup. Both sides have the same mix - so while you may personally be bottom tier, your team is roughly the same make up as the bad guys.

View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

But again, the margins for error are smaller and you have less to work with. The bottom tiered pilot will almost always be less experienced than the top tiered simply because of the fact the top tiered pilot had to have flown more to have earned the higher tier plane. So the less experienced pilot is also more likely to be in the more disadvantaged situation.



As Alex has so eloquently stated, teir does not have a relationship to skill.


View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

No matter how good your situational awareness is, you are still in a lower tier plane that is more fragile and more poorly armed than an equal class higher tier plane. It may or may not be more maneuverable than what you face.

My zero is more fragile and more poorly armed than most of the planes it faces. It is still, by far, my favorite airplane - because how many hit points I have make no difference if you can't get on my tail, and how strong my guns are matters not if I can keep you in my sights as long as I want. But, again, the real answer here for the discussion at hand is that it is the same for both teams - one team does not magically have more or less bottom tier than the other.

View PostDraconis76, on 17 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Just my opinions back at you :) Only time and trial can tell which path is best....

...and, while I disagree, I respect your opinions and your voice. I know you from game and forums to be a talented, intelligent individual - and always welcome a chance to see you here or in game!

marshallee24 #29 Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:04 PM

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Personally. I think that with MM there should only be one tier per game. I know i am not new at all, but i do think that the MM all around is a little on the wacky side. i have a habbit of flying with my Il2 or 2t, Equiping my 23mm's and not going after Gt's, but going after aircraft because i know that i can get the lower tiers pretty fast. I know this may seem a little wrong, so i dont do that anymore just to give the other guys a small fighting chance :P I have also heard of the new people complaining that the experienced players like me and alex, papabear, and rebel, going into lower tier battles just go to seal clubbing. So that is my form of a "Solution" to that problem.

Drastic2000 #30 Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:57 PM

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Eh, I'm not allowed to vote on here so either it's closed or I'm simply not allowed, either way from my perspective, the matchup isn't bad at all. There are some instances where I've seen a tier 1 mixed in with our 5-8, poor bugger quit imediately and can't blame him but then again, why not just play it out.

The sheer number of players that are going to build up will likely make the MM much more fair. Although we've had quite a few rounds with only 3 on each team, 5 or higher. I would rather, personally, have a few on each team and remain closer levels than be a 2 in 5-6 BUT, really, the games don't last long and I've been taken down faster with higher level planes some days than lower level, mainly due to being in back of the line lol.

An advantage would be (if not already) getting far more exp points for taking out higher tier planes if you are low level.

All in all, I don't think it's all that bad. There may be mismatches here and there but again, play it out, live or die, move on, if you do die then just play another battle in the mean time.

I tried to read through all the answers but would take too long so if I repeat anyone, my apologies.

TheGreenTank #31 Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:46 PM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 16 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

So, in short:  1 vs. 2, 2vs. 3, 3 vs. 2, 3 vs. 4 and 5, 4 vs. 3/5 or 5/6, 5's vs. 3/4 or 4/6 or 6/7, 6 vs. 4/5 or 5/7 or 7/8, 7 vs. 5/6 or 6/8 or 8/9, 8 vs. 6/7 or 7/9 or 9/10. 9 vs. 7/8 or 8/10, and 10 always vs. 8/9.

1. I saw someone (WulfNose?) mention introducing a Flex Tier system, where players can select any of the following:

Never face two tiers higher, never face 1 tier higher, never face jets.. etc..

2. I've seen someone (Caemon/Draconis?) suggest just a simple reduction in spread to either: 1 tier spread (4's with 5s, 5's with 6's. etc.) or just keep the fights all the same tier vs. the same tier...


This needs to happen.

Either one or all of the above, but WarGaming, MAKE. THIS. HAPPEN.

Tier 2s belong NOWHERE in front of my Bf-110B. I literally can fire *ONE TIME* and instantly smoke any tier 2. It's not fair to newer players, who at tier 2 are still experimenting with controls, maneuvers, and situational awareness.

Draconis76 #32 Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:47 PM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 17 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

True - except that if you're bottom tiered heavy, then so are the bad guys. It balances out that way - and in that bottom tier heavy match, that means most folks are the same tier (the bottom one). So no problem, right? And, if you are outclassed by the plane you're facing - well, that can happen. There is no guarantee of a fair fight at any tier, any time. My top tier can face a more agile opponent, or get boom n zoomed off the face of the battlefield - it can happen, has happened, and will happen again. Tier is not the sole determining factor there.

No it doesn't. There may be another bottom tiered heavy there, but that does not mean it will be conveniently in your airspace. In terms of the overall battle it will be balanced, but in terms of your personal ability to contribute, the other enemy planes are not going to back off just to let you and your counterpart have a clean and balanced match.

The tier difference increases the degree of difficulty and the likelihood of an imbalanced personal match-up.

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I would argue that we can't balance the whole game around the folks who are still learning, but I'd like to as much as possible keep the argument away from skilled vs unskilled and more towards what the match maker should look like, all other things being equal. I don't see what we have now as being 'hard core', just a working system.

You can't set aside arguments just because they are inconvenient. If you don't think it is an issue, present an argument refuting my statement.

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Certainly correct here - but again, not tier dependent. If I'm top tier with a turning fighter, I might end up facing off against a more maneuverable opponent. or an opponent who can catch me in my boom and zoom fighter. These things can happen regardless of tier - same tier will have the same issues, and we wouldn't want it otherwise, because we WANT a good mix of airplanes in there. Wouldn't be as fun if all the airplanes were the same, right?

But again, if you are bottom tiered, you are likely worse off. If you are not likely worse off, then the plane should arguably be higher tier and thus not bottom tiered. The planes do not have to be 'all the same' for tiers to matter, and indeed tiers do matter. The fact that there are variances within any given tier is a red herring. Tier variances in capability are on top of those.

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true - it can and does happen that you end up in a messy furball where you can't watch everyone, a couple get onto your tail that you can't shake, and you die. This happens to me all the time. But it's also not tier dependent - it can easily happen when you're top tier as well.

But your vulnerability increases radically at lower tier. You have less power to escape with, and fewer hps to absorb damage with. You also have lower firepower to reduce the enemy threat within that furball. You keep wanting to say 'but look over there' and try to make the argument that since furballs are innately dangerous, that the danger is equal regardless of tier. It isn't.

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See, no they don't. They have the same mix your team does. That's what I don't get here - it's not your team of IV's against an enemy team of VI's, it's a nearly equal matchup. Both sides have the same mix - so while you may personally be bottom tier, your team is roughly the same make up as the bad guys.

Again, you are confusing balanced sides with the ability (or lackthereof) of any given plane to contribute. The tiers may be balanced overall between the two teams, but the average tier of the match will be higher than the tier of any given bottom tiered plane. Thus any individual plane your bottom tiered aircraft might face will, on average, be higher tier than yours. It is not like you can just say 'red rover red rover, send a Tier III over.' You have to face what the battle presents you.

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As Alex has so eloquently stated, teir does not have a relationship to skill.

Only where $ have been used to obtain shortcuts, which (a) is an exception to the normal situation, (b) will be an exception even for that player (since they will almost certainly fly non-premium planes as well as premium planes), and © is decried constantly in WoT. Every vet or sane person in WoT will tell you not to go straight for the higher tier tanks. Get some xps so you know how to use em first (and get to know whether you really feel spending $50 or so is really worth it on a game you are barely starting in on).

In the vast majority of cases, the person flying the higher tier plane will have more experience playing the game than the person flying the lower tier plane (which also might be a premium plane, btw).

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My zero is more fragile and more poorly armed than most of the planes it faces. It is still, by far, my favorite airplane - because how many hit points I have make no difference if you can't get on my tail, and how strong my guns are matters not if I can keep you in my sights as long as I want. But, again, the real answer here for the discussion at hand is that it is the same for both teams - one team does not magically have more or less bottom tier than the other.

Re-read what I said... "than an equal class higher tier plane." Your Zero is more fragile and more poorly armed than a lower tier Japanese plane? Really? How'd you manage that?

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...and, while I disagree, I respect your opinions and your voice. I know you from game and forums to be a talented, intelligent individual - and always welcome a chance to see you here or in game!

Likewise!

Draconis76 #33 Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:07 PM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 17 July 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Thanks, Jareth, Jeffrey, dmarsha, and Draconis.
Excellent in depth reasoning, Jeff! That's what we need. And, it seemingly went from an aircraft vs. aircraft perspective, not a "veteran" vs noob perspective. Keeping skill out of the equation is a lot easier to explain the balancing, if you ask me. Skill must be learned, and is usually hindered by handicaps, not assisted.
This is why I still truly believe a drastic change shouldn't be made, without ample in-depth reasoning, and without a majority vote type deal.
and, as Jeff stated, if you add the Yes votes up, they outweigh the No's by just as much as the vice versa. That's why I put the its this way. It shows tha one of these 3 options MUST win over a combination of two winning over the one. Obviously, right now more people are asking for a small change at least,  BUT more people are also saying most of the MM is fine. Thus, king of the vote MUST come from only one of those options: small change, no change, drastic change.
Question is, Jeff, were you the only one to realize where I was going with, or did you counter my "tally" post all on your view of opposing it for the other side? Because I posted them, hoping to invoke exactly this kind of response.

Draconis,

You state that the bottom tiered pult is the least skilled and experienced player, because the other guy had thigher tier... But what if the other guy just bought 100k gold, and did what I did when OBT day one happened? I equilaterally ground all yet 5's out, and my IL-Ty researched.. AND my F2G bought up.. I did this on  42,665 tokens/ gold. Of course , I believe I had the most tokens of anyone, due to my having more XP than even DJ or abbey (14k battles and 18k battles) had.

If I could grind out those, a while flying tier 1, skipping 2.. Playing 3/4 to max 5's out..  A d I did this in less battles, and first day, than shwedor did to get one line to tier 8... Then I know that someone with €/$ to spare can/ will easily be able to do the same with 100k purchased gold.

And precisely how many new players do you think are going to do that coming straight into this game? Not Beta-veterans, but literal brand new players?

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Heck, some tanks players I know have like a million gold saved up from clan wars and/or contests and purchases.

Yes those players exist, but are the minority. They in no meaningful way invalidate my point.

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Youcan buy (gold) right into tier 1/2/3/4/5/6... Currently. And, there's no doubt in my mind that there will e a gold version of the "Mustang/Corsair/Wildcat/Zero/Spitfire/P-38/yak-9...  Basically all of the most famously known planes will likely be purchasable right off the bay. Why? Because players who come to this game WANT those types of planes, and want them now.

Do a simple forum search and you'll see more posts asking "where is.."

And the search will show those questions asking about already existings (corsair, mustang/zero) as well as the ones I mentioned above. So many don't bother to check the portal, which shows the existings... And so many more keep asking, instead of reading.. Where's the (any one of those above)  xyz plane?

WG'ing is likely watching that, and although veteran forum warriors go in and neg them or troll bash them.. THESE are the people who are being targeted by the gold planes. Those who want the instant gratification of flying around in their famous plane... They'll buy it.. And once purchased, they might discover they're not that good at the game just because they bought it...

You can... but go on to the WoT boards with a new account and ask what tier 7 or tier 8 you should buy. You will get a TON of posts telling you to learn to play the game before buying anything that high in tier. That advice applies here too. And again, those are the minority of players, not the majority. And even then, safe bet they will play 'free' planes in addition to their premiums, so for most of their planes, my statement relating experience and tier will still apply.


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Now, aside from my not feeling pity for them jumping the gun and falling down... These people will likely be the majority of the pay-to-win/farm crowd. Nothing we can do. So, to say they're more skilled or experienced, at least when LIVE comes, would likely be a misnomer.


Just food fr thought.

Which is still a red herring. They will still be exceptions within the populous and thus do not invalidate my point in any meaningful way.

jeffreyac #34 Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:40 PM

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Well, Draconis, if I'm understanding you correctly (and please, if I'm not, let me know!) it seems most of our disagreements stem from one common theme - you feel a bottom tier cannot contribute effectively to a match, and I feel they can.

If that's the case - well, we'll have to agree to disagree then, as I doubt either is going to be able to sway the other with any arguments; I think we both pretty strongly believe in our points of view.

I could be way off base again, though - it did seem that was the thrust of several of your points, but not all...  Is there a bigger picture I'm missing?

Draconis76 #35 Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:20 PM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 17 July 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Well, Draconis, if I'm understanding you correctly (and please, if I'm not, let me know!) it seems most of our disagreements stem from one common theme - you feel a bottom tier cannot contribute effectively to a match, and I feel they can.

If that's the case - well, we'll have to agree to disagree then, as I doubt either is going to be able to sway the other with any arguments; I think we both pretty strongly believe in our points of view.

I could be way off base again, though - it did seem that was the thrust of several of your points, but not all...  Is there a bigger picture I'm missing?

I don't feel that it is impossible for them to contribute, but instead frustratingly difficult, especially if there are any systematic factors that would bias them towards bottom tier (such as tier demographics). I don't mind a 2 tier deficit as a challenge on occasion, but most of the time I would rather it just be skill vs skill without any such penalties. And I strongly suspect that the majority of players would agree with that.

And again, if there really aren't any significant penalties or increased difficulties to flying bottom tier, then the tier system itself is messed up.

WulfNose #36 Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:07 AM

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The sample space you have here in your vote is that fraction of the population which participates in the Forum: the cognoscenti. I suggest you add to the votes for MM reform the players who depart the game because they cannot get a fair match. They vote with their feet. Please add 10,000 votes to MM reform to represent a portion of the players who will leave WoWP because the WTFMM is so obviously screwed up, and another 20,000 votes to represent all of their friends who they will tell about their bad experience in WoWP. That would be a more accurate poll, absent actual data from WG on the play/leave rate. Or, even similar data from WoT, although the effect of the spread is less severe there. And, of the players here who finally acquiesce to the change to Tier II, how many have blown by that tier and are now clubbing seals in the higher tiers?  There is a huge sampling error here, and that sample's results are being used to bolster the wrong outcome. Wulf

Edited by WulfNose, 18 July 2013 - 12:29 AM.


jeffreyac #37 Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:20 AM

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View PostWulfNose, on 18 July 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

I suggest you add to the votes for MM reform the players who depart the game because they cannot get a fair match.

OK, what exactly is a 'fair match'?

Is it fair when a GA picks up a heavy fighter of the same tier and gets cut to ribbons?

Is it fair if a BnZ airplane drops out of the clouds and takes out a slow turn fighter of the same tier?

Here's a real life example:

I just left a tier VI match - I was in my tier VI 109 Z, top tier for the battle. At the initial confrontation, a F4U (also tier VI) drops on me from above. I can't outmaneuver him, and can't outrun him (yes, I'm supposed to have 50 knots on him, but he hangs with me in the dive and throughout my entire engine boost...) I duck and weave for a good two minutes, manage to pull him back over friendly guns, but eventually I zig when I should have zagged and he gets me.

Was this 'fair'? After all, I was outclassed - way outmaneuvered, and not enough speed advantage to make it work out for me; for all practical purposes I was dead as soon as he rolled in and the best I could do was delay it a while. And yet, I was in top tier - and an airplane considered to be strong in that tier....

See, the airplanes are different. As Draconis pointed out earlier, you don't have control over who you may be fighting - and sometimes, you can't disengage, and you're forced to fight a match you're disadvantaged in. By definition, this isn't fair - you didn't ask for it, but there it is anyway. The only way to make it completely fair is make one airplane, with identical stats, that we all fly - no differences in speed, maneuverability, and firepower - and no consumables or ammo. That gives you a completely even playing field...  trouble is, who'd want to play that? (and, honestly, if your concern is for the newbies - they'll still get spanked by the folks who have been around a while, i'd think...)

Here's the summation: 'Completely fair' in a one-on-one perspective is not important. 'Reasonably fair' in that each team has a roughly equal chance of winning, and the planes can in some ways compete, is the best we're going to do for game play. You can argue the bottom tiers can't compete if you like - I disagree, but I understand I may not be able to change your mind - but even a single tier match will not always be 'fair' to someone, and I think trying to argue that we're making the matchmaker more 'fair' is unnecessary - it's already fair, in that there are roughly equal amounts of each tier on each side. That's all we need.

Edited by jeffreyac, 18 July 2013 - 02:24 AM.


Draconis76 #38 Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:40 AM

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View PostAlexVandross, on 18 July 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

If your goal is less frustration for new players, then why continue to attack "elitists"? Why not leave "skill" out of the conversation of aircraft balance,

And then, bring up a new topic on howNEW PLAYERS can be given some sort of "safety cushion" of xx/xxx battles..

My personal opinion is that if the player is new, and I mean new to Release version or Open Beta players (maybe?), then he should be able to have the ability to face other new players only, for so many games..


This is fairly well exampled by the game Crossfire, where players below the very first promoted rank can come in and fight each other, without the usual prose coming and sweeping them.



Again.. Why would I make a thread on how to deal with the MM, if I didn't care about new players? Why would I be offering to teach people how I fly, if not for the fact they ask and I care? Why would I write up extensive guides on how to do about everything I do,  how to win more often than not, etc.?

Why would I bother? I could be like I am on the WT boards, and have like less than 3 posts per year...And I was CBT over there as well.

So.... if you knew someone had a Tier 10 plane, you would assume they had the same experience in game as someone with just a couple tier 1's and 2's? (extreme example, but makes my point).

Note that in WoT there are no premium 9's or 10's, and there are no research-able from premiums, so if someone does have a tier 9 or 10, or even a non-premium 7 or 8, they would still have had to have gotten there the hard way. For that matter someone could have a premium tier 6 and if that was their only tier 6, they would still almost certainly have less experience than someone with a non-premium tier 6.

It is theoretically possible they have played 10k games in a T1 and nothing else, but that would be (a) very very unlikely and (b) they would still arguably have very limited experience in the game.

Draconis76 #39 Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:43 AM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 18 July 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

OK, what exactly is a 'fair match'?

Is it fair when a GA picks up a heavy fighter of the same tier and gets cut to ribbons?

They are equal tier, so arguably, yes.

That is what equal tier means, after all. Is it fair that the heavy cuts the GA to ribbons, but still loses the match on supremacy since the GA took out a dozen ground targets before the heavy picked it up?

The planes within each tier are allegedly balanced against each other, even if not in a literal one on one direct confrontation sense in all cases. That is what equal tier means.

If it means something different, then the whole tier concept goes out the window.

WulfNose #40 Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:57 PM

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View Postjeffreyac, on 18 July 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

OK, what exactly is a 'fair match'?

Is it fair when a GA picks up a heavy fighter of the same tier and gets cut to ribbons?

Is it fair if a BnZ airplane drops out of the clouds and takes out a slow turn fighter of the same tier?

Here's a real life example:

I just left a tier VI match - I was in my tier VI 109 Z, top tier for the battle. At the initial confrontation, a F4U (also tier VI) drops on me from above. I can't outmaneuver him, and can't outrun him (yes, I'm supposed to have 50 knots on him, but he hangs with me in the dive and throughout my entire engine boost...) I duck and weave for a good two minutes, manage to pull him back over friendly guns, but eventually I zig when I should have zagged and he gets me.

Was this 'fair'? After all, I was outclassed - way outmaneuvered, and not enough speed advantage to make it work out for me; for all practical purposes I was dead as soon as he rolled in and the best I could do was delay it a while. And yet, I was in top tier - and an airplane considered to be strong in that tier....

See, the airplanes are different. As Draconis pointed out earlier, you don't have control over who you may be fighting - and sometimes, you can't disengage, and you're forced to fight a match you're disadvantaged in. By definition, this isn't fair - you didn't ask for it, but there it is anyway. The only way to make it completely fair is make one airplane, with identical stats, that we all fly - no differences in speed, maneuverability, and firepower - and no consumables or ammo. That gives you a completely even playing field...  trouble is, who'd want to play that? (and, honestly, if your concern is for the newbies - they'll still get spanked by the folks who have been around a while, i'd think...)

Here's the summation: 'Completely fair' in a one-on-one perspective is not important. 'Reasonably fair' in that each team has a roughly equal chance of winning, and the planes can in some ways compete, is the best we're going to do for game play. You can argue the bottom tiers can't compete if you like - I disagree, but I understand I may not be able to change your mind - but even a single tier match will not always be 'fair' to someone, and I think trying to argue that we're making the matchmaker more 'fair' is unnecessary - it's already fair, in that there are roughly equal amounts of each tier on each side. That's all we need.

A fair match? In the eye of the beholder. So, that is why a fair match is one where the pilot chooses the level of challenge. With a Flex MM, a pilot choosing an "A. One Tier" match is choosing a fair match. If that same pilot is ready to take his chances with a "B. Two Tiers" then that pilot will be in a fair match, because the pilot made his own choice. And, if ready to fully participate, the pilot selects "C. Unlimited." It is all about having some control over their fate. That is what "fair" is about, and that is why the Flex MM will save WoWP. Wulf




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