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How Throttle SHOULD Work


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Znath #1 Posted 10 January 2012 - 05:55 PM

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I'm not sure how this is on all joysticks, but something I've noticed is this:

If you have throttle at max, it keeps at max, that's fine and makes sense.  

But the second you mess with it at all,...
it  goes into boost mode.  And then keeps doing so constantly if you keep the throttle maxed.
I have to then lower my throttle axis down to nearly HALF in order to prevent this.  But this doesn't bring my "Game Throttle" to half, it brings it just barely below max.


How do I believe the throttle should work?

Max throttle axis means max throttle.  
Half means half.  
Zero means engine off.  
Then if I WANT the boost, press a totally separate boost button.
Boost SHOULD NOT be connected to the throttle axis at all.  I absolutely hate going into boost if I accidentally push into the boost zone on my throttle axis.  On top of that, the 'boost zone' is WAY TOO BIG.  Literally half my throttle is boost area.  I'm using a cheap Saitek ST290, it's cheap, trust me.  But I think this is going to be similar on others and I'm not sure how to fix it.  

It makes flight much harder in combat if you can't accurately control your throttle.

I've tried switching the throttle control to "accelerate" and engine off but that basically makes your throttle on/off.  And if you put the throttle as it is, you get the gradient throttle, but then half the axis is boost.  And I utterly hate that.

My idea for a solution:
Remove boost from being associated with throttle.  Just have it be some button totally split from the throttle axis.
Then expand the throttle's adjustment to cover the entire axis of the throttle on the joystick.
I think that would allow finer control during flight.
"He who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven." Sun Tzu's Art of War


GeorgePatton #2 Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:10 PM

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Yep, I agree, but the only issue I can see is that if you implement the precise control of the throttle for joysticks, you are putting keyboard/mouse players at a disadvantage.


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phalnx #3 Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:06 PM

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You're preaching to the choir, znath. I made the exact same gripe here.  It's kind of hard to be patient when the game's already so much fun to play, though :( .  And Glenn, I think I have the solution...they could make the bindings behave differently under different profiles...for example, when selecting the joystick profile, the throttle controls could be optimized for throttle wheels/sliders, and when selecting any other profile, it could be optimized for button or regular axis control.  Perhaps they could even include optimization as an option in the bindings themselves and let us choose.

Redjevel #4 Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:28 PM

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Yep i would like to get another button for the boost, would be great.
Or just 2x tap W for boost or something like this?

minirhyder #5 Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:31 PM

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It isn't as far as I'm aware. If you go to editing the control scheme, there are separate keys/buttons you can assign for engine boost and engine off, and accelerate and throttle down.

I will post SS of what I mean next time I'm in game.

That bothered me quite a bit too for a while, until I manually changed it in options.

Znath #6 Posted 26 January 2012 - 09:14 AM

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I don't see why WoT has a variable throttle for keyboard control and WoWp doesn't right?
As far as adjusting the controls I tried that.  That's when it just did engine on/off no in-between.
I'm not sure if that's changed since the last update.  Doubtful as it wasn't in patch notes.
This is one reason I stopped using my joystick, the other reason being if you accidentally engine-off
it goes into permanent-stall-mode at which point you're basically dead.


What's so hard about having the throttle adjustable?
For times where you need to throttle down it could simply be like in WoT where you use R and F to adjust the setting.
Then have a gauge that shows you your throttle.  

--throttle for keyboards--
Instead of R/F why not have it so that W/S raise or lower your throttle gradually instead of simply on and off.  This way you also don't have to constantly hold W the entire time as well.  If you want to slow down, you press S until the throttle's where you want it, throttle zero is engine off.

Then have a keyboard setting for sensitivity of the throttle change.  That way if players want it to be more like on or off they can increase the throttle-change-rate or if they want more gradual throttle, they lower it.  From there, the throttle adjustment can be indicated as it is now on the speedometer.
--

Keyboard players are already at a disadvantage from joysticks.  I'm just trying to bridge the gap a little.
I think having a throttle that's a little better than ON!/off would massively benefit them.
It's worse enough "key lock" still exists.. I mean seriously it's 2012 and computers still get key lock. (ie keys stop functioning when you press too many)

Regardless of all that, maxthrottle should not activate the boost.  That should be something you can activate on its own.
An idea related to that.  If you're at say 50% throttle slowing down and then activate throttle, it should rapidly throttle up and THEN boost immediately after.


That's my idea.
I think this would both solve throttle issues across the board as well as even the playing field between keyboard and joystick.
It'll never be equal in precision or handling, but there's no reason there can't be an adjustable throttle for keyboard players.
"He who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven." Sun Tzu's Art of War


Znath #7 Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:02 AM

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That might work better for my keyboard setup to replace the W S with the mapping the - and = are on.
I'll have to mess with that tomorrow.  I don't see why that's not already default for W/S's where currently it's preset to ONBOOST/OFF throttle

Another thing though is if you throttle to minimum on - = does it still do the permanent stall thing?
Ideally I'd like to have full freedom of throttle so I can cruise slow and throttle up when I need to.  
Without a good throttle you can't pull off the same kinds of turns as you should be able to.


But remapping those buttons to joystick buttons still takes a lot of valuable real estate.
My joystick is already loaded up as it is let alone taking up space already reserved for important stuff eg, boost, rear look, weapons clusters. etc.
I may also try to remap those buttons to the joystick's throttle axis, it'll take them as incremental button presses but it might work.
Still.... I'd much rather see the throttle simply mapable to an axis and have boost completely 100% split from the throttle altogether.
"He who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven." Sun Tzu's Art of War


Zipang01 #8 Posted 31 January 2012 - 12:23 AM

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I've had this sorta problem with the throttle wheel on my joystick. Very annoying when I want to go a certain speed but not boost.

bmg50barrett #9 Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:22 PM

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I have the same thing as OP. My Saitek throttle is all goofy. When its physically half way, its at full throttle in game, anything physcially over half kicks the plane into boost mode.

There should be a button for boost, period. Full throttle should be full throttle.

SiThSpAwN #10 Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:26 AM

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View Postbmg50barrett, on 27 February 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

I have the same thing as OP. My Saitek throttle is all goofy. When its physically half way, its at full throttle in game, anything physcially over half kicks the plane into boost mode.

There should be a button for boost, period. Full throttle should be full throttle.

Glad to see this being brought up, throttle makes no sense, I understand wanting to keep it even for mouse and keyboard users, but certainly they can figure soemthing out? Mouse wheel? Variable speed by pressing a key? I dont know, but as it is now, its pretty not good.

Edit: I just thought of this, but throttle is like BF3 flight right now, and thats not really a great thing....

Night_Wolf #11 Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:17 PM

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View Postbmg50barrett, on 27 February 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

There should be a button for boost, period. Full throttle should be full throttle.
Well, there IS a button for boost. It's labeled (surprise) Boost Engine in control settings.  :Smile_glasses:
If you use a joystick it's mapped to the throttle by default, just remap the boost to another key and you at least won't have unwanted boosting anymore.

View PostSiThSpAwN, on 28 February 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

Glad to see this being brought up, throttle makes no sense, I understand wanting to keep it even for mouse and keyboard users, but certainly they can figure soemthing out? Mouse wheel? Variable speed by pressing a key? I dont know, but as it is now, its pretty not good.

Edit: I just thought of this, but throttle is like BF3 flight right now, and thats not really a great thing....
I agree. Right now I'm always flying full throttle and use the 'cut off engine' button if I want to slow down. I'm rarely using my joysticks throttle, might as well put it aside and put 'boost engine' and 'cut off' on one of the sticks buttons.

Timerwoolf #12 Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:57 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 10 January 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Yep, I agree, but the only issue I can see is that if you implement the precise control of the throttle for joysticks, you are putting keyboard/mouse players at a disadvantage.


Cheers!
Glenn


Of course they are going to be put at a disadvantage. But isnt that why you would get a joystick in the first place? :P  It is an airplane game after all so a joystick should make the flight controls better. Not put them on par with the mouse and keyboard.

So far the throttle is a bit touchy but I agree with OP

SiThSpAwN #13 Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:18 PM

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View PostTimerwoolf, on 28 February 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Of course they are going to be put at a disadvantage. But isnt that why you would get a joystick in the first place? :P  It is an airplane game after all so a joystick should make the flight controls better. Not put them on par with the mouse and keyboard.

So far the throttle is a bit touchy but I agree with OP


I think that's the point, they are trying to make a game where no advantage is given from having a joystick... I am not sure how that will work.

Plebian #14 Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:40 AM

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Im seeing the same thing with my Thrustmaster, having to pretty much play each match at full throttle to avoid having to fiddle with it mid skirmish.

I was thinking it was something that just wasnt fully developed yet or designed that way with the low-tier planes (like the early WW1 biplanes didnt have throttle controls).

If this is how it is supposed to be, then it is 'quirky' and touchy for sure.

Dundas #15 Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:25 AM

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I agree with the OP on the throttle I also have the same problem.

I also have found that there's a noticeable difference in lag time between when I initiate a maneuver and when it actually occurs on screen one which I have not noticed using the keyboard (this may have something to do with my joystick as its rather cheep). I understand that you are trying to make it fair and fun for every control type however I must admit that its very difficult to play when all your commands are noticeably lagged.

droopy #16 Posted 29 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

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I have the same joystick lag issue.  Recently i have re-mapped the throttle controls to W and S with the rudders at A and D.  I only move the joystick in tiny increments and this seems to help some with control.  the arrow keys really are faster control-wise but the diagonals are harder to control with the arrow keys, so it is a double edged sword.  Changing the repeat rate seemed to help with the arrow key sensitivity.

I think i would prefer either dedicated joystick support in-game or just no joystick support at all.  The way i *think* it currently works is the  joystick input is translated into the equivalent keyboard input and fed to the game but I could be wrong.

SiThSpAwN #17 Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:46 PM

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View Postdroopy, on 29 February 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

I think i would prefer either dedicated joystick support in-game or just no joystick support at all.  The way i *think* it currently works is the  joystick input is translated into the equivalent keyboard input and fed to the game but I could be wrong.

I think that question has to be posed now, Do you try to make mouse and joystick (and gamepad) functions even, or is that impossible as it will hinder one or the other in some form (as we are seeing with throttle controls now). Instead do you try and make each its very best and enjoyable for those that have or prefer each?

I get the thought process behind not wanting to have people complain or feel at a disadvantage with not having the perceived best flight controls, but in the same sense if you are that serious you can pick up a joystick for a decent price, you dont have to spend 300.

I hope the Devs take another look at this, and perhaps rethink the approach they are taking now.

Foka #18 Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:38 PM

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View PostZnath, on 10 January 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

If you have throttle at max, it keeps at max, that's fine and makes sense.  

But the second you mess with it at all,...
it  goes into boost mode.  And then keeps doing so constantly if you keep the throttle maxed.
I have to then lower my throttle axis down to nearly HALF in order to prevent this.  But this doesn't bring my "Game Throttle" to half, it brings it just barely below max.
For me it's different - when I have throttle to 100% then engine power is 100%. If I move throttle a bit lower I instatly get 0% engine power. It works as digital, not analog.

I don't have trouble with boost. It's not connectedo to throtle and I have separate joystick button for that.

View PostZnath, on 10 January 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Max throttle axis means max throttle.  
Half means half.  
Zero means engine off.  
Then if I WANT the boost, press a totally separate boost button.
Boost SHOULD NOT be connected to the throttle axis at all.  I absolutely hate going into boost if I accidentally push into the boost zone on my throttle axis.  On top of that, the 'boost zone' is WAY TOO BIG.  Literally half my throttle is boost area.
I'm for hat. That's how it SHOULD work!

KruskDaMangled #19 Posted 02 March 2012 - 10:24 PM

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I agree with the sentiment that you should be able to have finer control over your throttle. I found it very limiting to only have "Boost" and "Shut Engine OFF". At least something like World of Tanks anyway. It's just very hard to manage your plane when you are constantly pushing the engine like that, and slowing down and speeding up in fits and starts. It just seemed very hard in the test matches to control my speed with any accuracy because of that. While I would like a control setup that moved the throttle in a really fine grained way, having two or three settings up or down like world of tanks to mediate whether you were having it go full bore, half, a quarter, or throttling it down the same amount would be fine.

Plebian #20 Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:28 AM

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Throttle control is a very important aspect of air combat.
Would also like to see some flap control, at least settings for combat/cruising.




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