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(Tier IV) LBSh


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Poll: LBSh Plane Balance (36 members have cast votes)

How balanced do you think this plane is overall?

  1. Very overpowered (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Somewhat overpowered (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Reasonably balanced (9 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  4. Somewhat underpowered (16 votes [44.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.44%

  5. Very underpowered (11 votes [30.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.56%

How fun is this plane to fly?

  1. One of my favorites! (2 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  2. I really like it (6 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  3. It’s fun (8 votes [22.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

  4. Not my favorite (13 votes [36.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.11%

  5. I hate it! (7 votes [19.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.44%

How much of a factor does this plane contribute to a team’s victory? (Assume all planes are of the same tier in the match)

  1. Overwhelming contribution (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Strong contribution (4 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  3. Reasonable contribution (7 votes [19.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.44%

  4. Low contribution (22 votes [61.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.11%

  5. Non-factor (3 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

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Raizei #1 Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:35 AM

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Hello Pilots!
We want to hear your feedback! In addition to answering the poll above, we would like your feedback on the categories below:
Battles played - How many games have you flown in this plane?
Plane balance - please explain why you think this plane is overpowered, underpowered, or balanced. Give specific reasoning like firepower, turn rates, climb speed, etc., that contribute to the planes balance.
Historical accuracy - please note any specific characteristics that make this plane unique historically and what things may be missing from that would better reflect the capabilities of the plane.
Power curve - How does the plane feel stock vs. fully upgraded?
Adjustment recommendations - Explain any recommendations you have to balance this plane and why.
Additional notes - Anything else you have to say about this plane that doesn’t fit in another section above. Include any tactics or uses that may have been overlooked by other players.
Cheers!
~Raizei

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CrashTailspin #2 Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:22 AM

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Battles played - 11 in OBT.  I think it was nearly 100+ in CBT.  Needless to say, enough to understand its strong points and weaknesses.

Plane balance - this aircraft feels like a downgrade from the TSh-3 in nearly all aspects short of airspeed.  Going from an elite TSh-3, while not quite as speedy as the LBSh, carries the same initial LBSh bombload of 4 x FAB-50 bombs as well as 10 (yes, TEN!) 7.62mm ShKAS MGs.  With each MG having a fire rate of 1,800 rounds per minute, these things are absolute murder machines.

Now, remove 8 of the 10 guns, and you've got a stock LBSh.  A Tier 4 GA aircraft with two Tier 3 guns.  In a Tier 4-6 battle you may as well try to blow a target over with your prop wash.  Not to mention how painful the grind is trying to attack ground targets with inadequate armament, and the two 12.7mm ShVAKs seem like a godsend when you unlock them.

That is, until you fire them.  They do marginally more damage, but since you only have two, they're still relatively inadequate.  Another painful grind, and you FINALLY have the 20mm ShVAK cannons!!  YES!!  Until you engage a ground target, and realize that they overheat after destroying just one ground target.

Compared to the TSh-3, which could easily survive a Tier 2-4 battle, and even be sneaky enough to do well in a Tier 3-5 battle, the LBSh is only a force to be reckoned with in a Tier 2-4 battle.  Tier 3-5 it struggles a bit.  Tier 4-6......LOL.  It's a complete non-contender.  I fear a P-36 more than an LBSh in a 4-6 battle, and that's when I'm in a Tier 6, too.

Historical accuracy - Since I hadn't heard of the LBSh until I saw it in-game, I have no information to provide.

Power curve - Stock, this plane feels like an absolute dog.  Severe downgrade in armament, slow, and lumbering.  Placed in a Tier 4-6 battle, and you're cannon fodder.  Fully upgraded, it still feels like I'm struggling to kill ground targets, even in a Tier 3-5 battle.  The twin 20mm cannon overheat too fast, and re-engaging ground targets either results in overheated sporatic firing, or an extended egress to allow the guns to cool.  Both the TSh-3 and IL-2 don't seem to have this problem

The one thing this GA aircraft (sort of) works well in is slow, low-level aerial engagements against like-tiered enemies.  With the 20mm ShVAKs, it's got enough firepower to take down fighters relatively quickly.  Granted, this is the opposite of what a GA aircraft is supposed to do, but it's what the LBSh can do.

Adjustment recommendations - Not a clue, without ruining any historical accuracy.  Perhaps give it the ability to carry a few RS-82 rockets rather than bombs?  I mean, if the I-16 Late Mod can carry 6 x RS-82s, maybe there was some obscure LBSh mod that attempted to carry rockets?
.
Additional notes - Even using appropriate ground attack aircraft tactics (stay low, engage close, pick a route, etc.), this aircraft needs some TLC.  If it doesn't have escort, it's going to end up wasting its ordinance early on trying to take out enemy pursuit aircraft.  Its only saving grace is its 20mm cannon in a Tier 2-4 battle.  Occasionally a good pilot will be able to engage lower-tier fighters with relative ease.

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bearrick #3 Posted 10 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

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Battles played - 28 in OB, forget how many in closed
Plane balance - Pretty much what Crash stated above is my sentiment.  The guns just don't feel like what the common trend in the rest of the Soviet GA line presents.  It all stems from the guns.  2 7.62mm, 2 12.7mm, and 2 20mm as individual weapons aren't necessarily terrible options.  They're just not enough for the tier.  For the most part, these weapon options are more on par with the tier below it.  The numeric firepower stat concurs with this.  Even with the most powerful guns equipped on the LBSh, it's still 43 less than the upgraded TSh-3.  And considering that the 20mm have a higher overheat index, it's like comparing a chainsaw to a hand axe.  
Historical accuracy - I don't know a lot about the plane, but I do see that the bomb sets are about equal with what little information I can find on the plane.  
Power curve - stock is incredibly weak.  Upgraded is durable, but still only able to make a contribution if it's left alone and given plenty of time to itself.
Adjustment recommendations - Drop it a tier.  Seriously, drop it a tier and have the TSh-3 be a parallel.  The only Soviet GA below tier 5 that ever actually entered production is a premium plane that's part of a pre-order package.  This plane just seems like a slot filler and is so poorly balanced where it is right now that a lot of players in game complain about its guns.  It's not just because you're going from 10 down to two, but also because the individual power of these guns isn't good enough to stand on their own.  You know of another heavy plane that either has two machine guns or two 20mm?  It's the Fw 57, a tier 3.  After all, if it's going to be dependent on the ordinance, why use it when the plane one tier below and one tier above can do a better job at the primary roll?
Additional notes - Unless something changes with this plane, the guns are better suited to kill planes than to even try to kill ground targets.  I use it in the same way that I use low tier heavy fighters, only in slow motion.

Edited by bearrick, 10 August 2013 - 09:24 PM.

401shield.png 401st Bomb Group STICKER US ARMY AIR CORPS 615th Bomb Squadron.jpg 615th Bombardment Squadron


"What kind of a war is this?" - 2nd Lt. Ken Powell



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WulfNose #4 Posted 10 August 2013 - 09:45 PM

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94 games in open beta. It has nearly the lowest stats of any of my planes. The grind from the LBSh to the IL-2 I wanted seemed like forever. As others have noted, in a Tier 6 match, not only are its bombs less effective, but it is easy prey for any Tier VI. Viewed from the perspective of an equal tier fighter, I shot one down with by 109b the other night, accounting for ALL of its HP's. Initially, a full deflection shot, then tailing, with caution as to my speed. An easy kill. As to the its TG, I lost ONE HP in the kill from my 109b. So, that is the "equal tier" comparison requested. I try not to get in front of bombers, and try to watch for the bomb kill. Since the GA nerf, it earns poorly. Its sole role in the game seem to be slowly advancing to the IL-2. Wulf

Edited by WulfNose, 12 August 2013 - 09:30 PM.


Wernstrom #5 Posted 12 August 2013 - 06:16 PM

    Senior Airman

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Battles played - 41

Plane balance - Vs ground targets:  4 decent bombs means 4 GT kills, maybe 6 if you hit the doubles right in the center.  After that, strafing GTs feels like a chore.  

Vs enemy planes:  It's tier 3 predecessor rewarded being able to get your nose swung around onto the enemy by shredding them in a cloud of bullets.  The LBSh not so much.  Overall, It feels like a downgrade from tier 3.

Historical accuracy - Can't comment.

Power curve - The stock guns are marshmallow shooters and the upgraded cannons are only average.  The plane is sluggish regardless of engine.  Getting 4 decent bombs is really the only bright spot in the tree, and the only upgrade that really allows the plane to contribute at all.

Adjustment recommendations - More bombs, stronger cannons, or less cannon heat.  This plane is so pathetic vs enemy planes that it really should excel more vs ground targets.  As of now, I drop 4 bombs and am relegated to slowly strafing ground targets as my guns overheat on almost every pass, and not always with a GT kill.  

Additional notes -  This plane is not fun to fly.  At least the tier 3 TSH-3 could reliably and quickly kill ground targets after it's bombs were dropped, and it could be an opportunistic fighter if the enemy was caught off guard.  Trying to fight with those ten machine guns was FUN.   The LBSh just feels impotent on all fronts.  After dropping 4 bombs, if I haven't been shot down, the rest of the match feels like a chore.

Schalldampfer #6 Posted 17 August 2013 - 06:40 AM

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Battles played - 29
Plane balance - A slow heavy fighter(not ground attacker). Too bad firepower to be a ground attacker, and a bit poor speed to be a fighter.
  I've produced some Ace medal with this plane. and, I think I had one or more Destroyer medal within the 29 battles.
The guns are so accurate that enables me to kill other attackers and heavy fighters at long distance, but the damage rate of them is too poor to attack ground targets. TSh-3 could kill even more hard targets.
Historical accuracy - Nothing to say, as I don't know about LBSh at all.
Power curve - Too poor gun with stock equipment, but u can get 12.7mm/20mm guns if u play I-16s before this.
Adjustment recommendations - adding stronger guns or rockets.
Additional notes: Killing planes earns much more than destroying ships and AAs.

SkyWolf__WM #7 Posted 17 August 2013 - 12:37 PM

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Battles played -59 in open Beta
Plane balance - It was good... now, like most GA Aircraft it struggles to stay alive on anymap National Park or above
Historical accuracy -No frame of reference
Power curve - poop then a little less poop
Adjustment recommendations -Stop nerfing all of the GA Aircraft because of the whiners
Additional notes - Nah
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losttwo #8 Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:38 PM

    which way do we go?

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Since the update this craft is actually fun to play now. If you can get low and get past the onsluaght of enemy you can actually accomplish some damage to the enemy. With the improved tail gunner you do not have to worry so much about survival. Most of my kills are from the tail gunner as I fly through to next target with the occasional head on kills when people are dumb enough to take me head on. No, I do not mean ramming. This would be a keeper in my arsenal of fun, unlike the Sh-Tandem of which I could do with out.

losttwo #9 Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:43 PM

    which way do we go?

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by the way, 67 battles with an average of 6 ground targets and 1 kill per battle. If I can break through the wall of enemy.

bearrick #10 Posted 25 August 2013 - 10:37 PM

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Agreed, Losttwo.

This is one GA that actually saw some benefit from 0.5.1.

The hit point changes now make this a flying block of armor when it's top tier, and it's very tough even in the bottom.
The guns seem to be the least effected in the entire line by the accuracy changes because it only uses two of either MGs or 20mm.  So it still shoots much like the fighters with similar armament.
Speed characteristics don't seem to have changed much because it's still so clunky in maneuverability.
The crew skill additions have madr this gunner lethal.

401shield.png 401st Bomb Group STICKER US ARMY AIR CORPS 615th Bomb Squadron.jpg 615th Bombardment Squadron


"What kind of a war is this?" - 2nd Lt. Ken Powell



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Panzer_Leader_3 #11 Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:32 PM

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Five words: most painful grind in history.

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StoptheViolins #12 Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

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I find it odd that the LBsh has less maneuverability than the Tsh-3 or Tsh-1 or are the stated stats off?  
On another note - the plane can take a beating but always feels under powered (terrible climb rate, slow accell), but the 20mm guns do a fine job on planes, and with a slow speed can shred most ground targets on a tier 2/3 map in a single pass.  Anything higher than that and the plane feels like a slow target waiting to get jumped while circling around for another pass.
Historically, I believe only 1-2 prototypes were started, 1 almost finished, before the factory was converted to fighter production (kind of like a reverse Germany).

Edited by whirabomber, 23 September 2013 - 08:01 PM.


bearrick #13 Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:21 PM

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Update for 0.5.3

The new premium version of the LBSh is actually improved.

Giving it the ability to combine the ShKAS mgs and ShVAK cannons has done what was necessary for the aircraft to be competitive again.  I would actually possible buy this premium GA.

The only downside is the issue that is currently affecting all GAs, and that's damage to buildings.  The aircraft was improved but then the circumstances began to work against the class.  The reason I can tell this aircraft has been improved is because while nearly all other GAs saw a relative performance reduction, this plane has not.  Had it seen a performance reduction as well, it would have been in line with its past self.  Now that it's in line with everything else, it is clearly better at killing buildings than it was before.

401shield.png 401st Bomb Group STICKER US ARMY AIR CORPS 615th Bomb Squadron.jpg 615th Bombardment Squadron


"What kind of a war is this?" - 2nd Lt. Ken Powell



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Panzer_Leader_3 #14 Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:00 PM

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It is good now but not as good as it should be thanks to the global GA nerf.

If you see a Panzer flying a 109, you are probably already dead.-Me.
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Zapperguy #15 Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:37 PM

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I'm a non-conformist at heart; so, please excuse my not following the recommended template. :eyesup:
I like the LBSH. I liked it a lot more before it was nerfed, but I still do like it. Since skins now cost either credits or tokens (soon to be gold), most people fly this with the hangar skin which make them easy to spot for me as they all look like mine.
Spoiler                     
I have 182 battles in mine in OBT & I can't recall how many in CBT.
I have a 66% win percentage and a 29% survival rating.
My max for air kills in OBT is 6, but I have ACEd several times in it.
My max for GTs in OBT is 8.
I've killed 210 aircraft with 43 assists (probably half or more are from bomb kills as I load the FAB-100s and save them for planes), and 251 GTs with 455 advantage points.
It's a decent plane in the right hands, but for someone newer to GA aircraft or buying it upon release because it's a premium now, it will likely be a disappointing death trap. I don't have stats to back it up, but it doesn't feel nearly as "nimble" as it used to. I do have the 2 items of equipment for additional protection, Reinforced Armor Plates & Reinforced Covering, as well as the Improved Reflector Sight. I'm not convinced any of them do enough to be worth it when this goes live. I also fly it with the best ammo I can load.
Despite all the expensive extras, the LBSH is rarely a game-changer except when it is top tier with 3's and formerly 2's. While it is 4mph faster than the BSH-2 (also a tier 4), it is lower in all other measurable categories especially HP, which is 190 less. It is only 60 HP higher than a fully upgraded tier 3, TSH-3! I understand that a plane in a tree should be better than it's same tier premium counterpart, but maybe throwing a few more HP at it and buffing the main guns on both the LBSH and the BSH-2 would help with balance at tier 4. The LBSH has 31 more arbitrary firepower points than the TSH-3, but it struggles at it's tier to get GT kills in a single slow pass as an upgraded TSH-3 can. This means multiple passes for each GT which, with lower HP means getting shredded by AA far more noticeably than in any of the other GA planes. This certainly limits it's effectiveness as a true GA aircraft.
The TG, which is decent for a tier 4 premium, is a perk that you don't see again after the TSH-3 until the tier 6 IL-2(t).
Suggestions:
As others have said the addition of rockets to complement the bombs (4x RS-82 seems reasonable) would make this plane more relevant in battle.
I suggest the same for the BSH-2 as it doesn't even have a TG to defend itself.
Alternately, tweaking the main cannons to deliver a little more punch for both the LBSH and the BSH-2 (for tier/tree balance) would be similarly helpful to decrease the need for multiple passes on simple GTs.
Leave it exactly as it is, if you must; just don't nerf it any more!
:honoring:

Panzer_Leader_3 #16 Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:19 PM

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the Bsh-2 is actually meant as a IL-2 prep plane and in that respect it is excellent. #DontDissTheBSh-2

If you see a Panzer flying a 109, you are probably already dead.-Me.
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