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Dev Feedback: Flight Model, What's broke and how to fix it.


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jinxx71 #1 Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:02 AM

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Flight Model, What's broke and how to fix it.

Feel free to repost the best ideas on this topic that you may have already shared.

Jinxed_Katajainen #2 Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

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Issues I've seen with the flight model that has been mentioned in a separate thread is the compressed flight ceiling and the lack of climb/dive in planes that is a direct effect of it.  Planes lose too much speed trying to climb with an angle of anything greater than 5-10 degrees, forcing us to perform turning battles since the planes perform much better in the horizontal axis

In addition to planes with better climb being given advantages if the ceiling was higher, it would also give advantage to those planes which were known for their fast dives as well.

Neither are in the game yet, but I'll take a P-47 vs the Zero to address my point as the P-47 is known to dive well, is a B&Z fighter while the Zero is known to climb well, is a T&B fighter.

If these planes meet in the middle, there's room for both to draw the other into the area where they fight well.  If the Zero is caught low, it can climb away from the P-47 and try and bring it into a turn fight, if the P-47 is caught high it can dive away to create some space and make a few B&Z passes at it.
If a Fw57 is loitering high up to drop its bombs, climbing planes would have an advantage to catch it over other planes if the fighter is down low..
If a IL-2 is loitering down low to attack GTs, diving planes have an advantage to catch it over planes that don't dive as well if the fighter is up high.

In summary...  yes to more vertical space, it would give more advantage(s) to planes with superior climb or dive and open up the playing field.  I know WG stated they limited the ceiling to bring the action towards the ground, but long as the threat of GTs are there, not everyone will stick high and will have to bring part of their forces down to hunt them.  The low altitude fighters like the P-39 would be suited to this.

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Adzbass #3 Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:22 AM

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Not sure if this counts as a flight model issue or not, but the game doesn't feel as "fast" as it should relative to the ground. Shrinking the maps in the latest patch (which had its own separate issues...) fixed this to some degree, but IMO it still should feel a bit faster than it does at this point.
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Crag_r #4 Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:29 AM

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Stalling in game appears to be mainly based on Airspeed, something as a Pilot i really don't like been in game as its not intuitive to its real life counterpart. But i suppose it is mainly for the newbies not to get confused, if i were to say you can stall going at your max speed if you turn hard enough in real life.



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GeorgePatton #5 Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:05 AM

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View PostHorokew, on 07 November 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

In summary...  yes to more vertical space, it would give more advantage(s) to planes with superior climb or dive and open up the playing field.  I know WG stated they limited the ceiling to bring the action towards the ground, but long as the threat of GTs are there, not everyone will stick high and will have to bring part of their forces down to hunt them.  The low altitude fighters like the P-39 would be suited to this.

I would also add to this that if you give a higher ceiling, a lot of the fighters would go high, which would make it more fair for the ground attack pilots who have to try to sneak past everyone on the enemy team to attack the bases, etc.




My main problem with the FM is the way the plane continues to roll in the direction you had banked even when you center the stick. The plane also takes a while to respond to an opposite control input, so if I had been rolling right, and then I want to roll back to the left, it kindof 'lags' while it continues to roll to the right, then it's like 'Oh, I need to roll left now!' and it slowly stops rolling right, then starts rolling left. That is not how it should be. The plane should respond pretty much instantly to control inputs, and when you center the stick, the plane should stop rolling RIGHT then. (at least for the purposes of a flight game)

We should be able to climb WAAAY better as well. These planes simply do not climb like a fighter. I could out-climb them in a Cessna 172.

The throttle does not effect the airspeed enough. There are basically three throttle settings, off, full, and boost. The flaps do not effect the airspeed nearly enough either.


Cheers!
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CrashTailspin #6 Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:49 AM

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Flight Model, What's broke and how to fix it.


Here we go.  Make sure you seat backs and tray tables are in their full upright and locked position...
  • There needs to be a sensation of speed, which we're not getting right now.  This may have to do with the relationship of the scale of objects to aircraft.  On National Park, for example, trees feel HUGE compared to the aircraft.  I mean c'mon, they're not Sequoias or Redwoods.  If I'm going over 200mph those trees should be whizzing by like mad, not lazily plodding past like a guy on a bicycle.  At 400mph, low-level, I shouldn't even be able to SEE trees.  It should just be just a green blur.
    • Making the plane shake does NOT imply the feeling of an increase in speed.  It's an annoyance.  It throws off my aim.
    • The zooming in during acceleration works....kind of.
  • Roll inertia is getting better, but it needs to increase more, meaning fighters with "clean" wings should have a more rapid instantaneous roll rate, and bomb- and rocket-laden aircraft should have a drastically reduced instantaneous roll rate.  This would have the side benefit of making people think twice before loading their F4U or La-5 with rockets, bombs, etc.
  • As previously stated, the ceiling needs to be raised, and aircraft performance compensated as such.  The fear that the combat will take place at higher altitudes will be negated by the fact that aircraft will still be attacking ground targets at low-level, and therefore fighters will be forced to either fly low to take these aircraft out or suffer their consequences.
  • Speed loss in a turn still needs to be more.  In a near knife-edge turn, at full power, with flaps deployed, I should still be losing speed, not maintaining it.  I have been forced to "fly the game" rather than "fly the plane" because of this.
  • Stalls need to be abrupt.  Like 1,000% moreso than they are now.  These are big, heavy fighters.  They don't wallow.  They don't "get mushy" when they stall.  They break, and they break hard, and they usually DO NOT break straight ahead when they stall.  Heck, I've had a Piper Arrow break from a stall and nearly spin on me harder than a Corsair stalls in-game (background:  the Piper Arrow III is a notoriously stable single-engine aircraft, whereas the Corsair, improperly flown, could spin very easily).
  • Rudder effectiveness needs to increase nearly 100%.  If I tromp on a rudder in a big fighter such as the ones in-game, the nose should displace at least 20-30% immediately, and continue displacing (at a reduced rate) as long as I hold down the rudder.  Currently it displaces about 10% immediately, and then slows down to about 2-3 degrees per second.  This is laughable.  Also, there is no roll due to yaw.  Basic aerodynamics shows that if you increase airflow over a surface (like in an uncoordinated turn caused by rudder deflection), that surface will create an increase in lifting force.  Therefore, the outside wing in a turn receives more airflow (since it's going momentarily faster), and should raise up in the direction of the turn.  THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN.  It can't be hard to implement, and would add an element of realism to the game.
  • I'm not sure how else to phrase this, but at extremely low altitude (like below 100ft AGL), the ground sometimes seems to "suck" aircraft towards it.  Make it stop.
  • This may not be FM related, but it's frustrating nonetheless.  REDUCE THE BOMB PROXIMITY TIME DELAY.  I cannot count the number of times I've been 500ft AGL or higher, pursuing some aircraft that's equipped with bombs, traililng somewhere around 2,000ft behind it, when all of a sudden...BOOM!....and I'm dead.  Straight from 100% to 0%.  No warning.  Turns out, that aircraft dropped a bomb, and the blast is what got me.  No, it didn't hit me from above - it hit me from below.  I know why the delay was implemented - it was so most GA players didn't kill themselves with the explosion.  However, the delay is SO long that most people are incredibly well-clear of the target when it goes off.  Or re-work the delay where it's 3 seconds OR impact, whichever is longer.

I'm sure there's more.  I'll post more when I think of them.

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Madiba127 #7 Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:58 AM

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My Thoughts, some of you can agree and disagree but first and foremost these are my thoughts
i wont go to in-depth because i need time to write that all down so here is a basic summary (by basic i mean very basic)
  • Flight ceiling: this needs to be increased or at lest spawn fighters and heavy's higher then the ground attack aircraft, I am a GA Player those who see me in battle will see i hardly fly fighters not because i don't like them or anything its just my style, i understand the reasons for the ceiling but the spawn height needs to change this will give GA more a role as at this stage fighters go for ground targets and the GA aircraft just lose out and get killed
  • in the last two patches (the fix and the main) the FM has vastly improved, if you remember on Skype i said i no longer felt like i was flying a brick, though that is true and it is vastly better there are still improvements that could be made, the aircraft need a sense of speed to them, they need to act like aircraft yes this is not a sim game or an arcade but a mix but it never hurts to add in a few more sim elements at lest to the aircraft.
as a side note to what glenn is saying i agree, planes need to respond faster and they need to feel like an aircraft, climb rate, speed etc

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FryaDuck #8 Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:32 AM

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View PostCrashTailspin, on 07 November 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

Flight Model, What's broke and how to fix it.

View Postmadiba127, on 07 November 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

as a side note to what glenn is saying i agree, planes need to respond faster and they need to feel like an aircraft, climb rate, speed etc

I agree with both Crash and madiba. I will also add;

There is a big difference between pure propeller aircraft and pure jet. A propeller driven aircraft pulls itself through the air, a jet pushes or thrusts itself through the air.

All aircraft, from game start altitude with maximum throttle setting, should be climbing at their indicated climb rate. At level flight settings, throttle is around 70% hands off (it varies between aircraft but roughly correct) giving a cruise speed ie P51D Mustang cruise speed 362mph or 580kph. Full Military Power (full throttle) at level settings accelerates the aircraft to maximum speed ie P-51D Mustang 437mph or 703kph. Boost would accelerate the aircraft to a percentage past maximum speed, ie P-51D Mustang 610mph or 980kph (0.8 mach). None have the view squeeze (thats what I call it). Propeller aircraft accelerate gradually, Jet aircraft accelerate rapidly being the main difference.

The game simply doesn't reproduce accurate throttle settings. Boost needs to be removed from the Joystick throttle axis.


If you get a chance to make a comparison, and I'm not saying WoWP should be like it. Please do some flight testing with other games, I recommend WWIIOnline (in offline mode) http://www.battlegro...wnload-the-game I think you'll get the idea.
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Reagalan #9 Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

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I don't have as much to say about the flight model's realism since I've never flown or played an actual fight sim, but some things could help from a gameplay perspective.

Increase the loss of energy in turns, it will force things to the deck faster, and make it easier to force aircraft to overshoot. I know this was already done before in a previous patch, but it need to be even more now.

Vastly increase rudder power, it's far too little.

Increase climb rates and Double the flight ceiling, both together will help a ton in helping high tiers and will justify the increased energy loss in turns.

Decrease the effect of drag on aircraft. That means you dive, you go faaaast, and you don't lose it as quickly either. This will help boom and zoom.

You should be able to stall the plane by rolling hard over at low speed.

The ground "sucking effect" also needs to go. I can remember many fun times in Alpha when this:
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jackal40 #10 Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

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The best way I can think to fix the Flight model is to revert to 0.2.3!

Everything that has been done since to introduce a sense of speed needs to be removed.
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GeorgePatton #11 Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

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I agree with jackal40. I think the best way to fix would be to go back to 0.2.3, however, I think that should just be the base of the improvements. I think we need to get 0.2.3 back, then give better climb rates, and all the other stuff CrashTailspin suggested. I think that would make WoWP truly an epic game.


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grimzod #12 Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:33 PM

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View Postjinxx71, on 07 November 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Flight Model, What's broke and how to fix it.

Feel free to repost the best ideas on this topic that you may have already shared.

When planes explode and/or die crash in mid-air, the effect should be more immediate and catastrophic.  Bouncing off a plane and flying on or floating in mid-air after a crash or destruction (some planes have been seen hanging there for 5 to 6 second sor more) REALLY spoils the flow of the game and immersion.

The 'need for speed' shake and ocular effect added to boosting is silly and adds nothing, no immersion or fun sorry i just dont expect somethgin like that in a plane and when it does happen it limits our already limited visual area.  As an Optional effect it might be okay for those that like it but its not optional at the moment.

Fightersmurf #13 Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

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1: Rudder is a joke. It needs to be more effective like Crash said.
2: In a turn speed needs to bleed off fast with engine idle. Your taking a defensive manuver away from the game.
3: Engine power needs to have more effect increasing and decresing its use. The prop is a big drag on speed when it is brought to
idle with flaps out speed should drop like a rock. When you pull up on the stick it should slow evan faster. If you clean and unload the airplane and go to full power the airplane should accelerate quickly.


Crash has the right idea.
Maybe make a test server and get some guys in there to test some of our and your idea's before you release them to the beta guys.

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Tufton #14 Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:45 PM

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View PostCrashTailspin, on 07 November 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

Flight Model, What's broke and how to fix it.


Here we go.  Make sure you seat backs and tray tables are in their full upright and locked position...
  • There needs to be a sensation of speed, which we're not getting right now.  This may have to do with the relationship of the scale of objects to aircraft.  On National Park, for example, trees feel HUGE compared to the aircraft.  I mean c'mon, they're not Sequoias or Redwoods.  If I'm going over 200mph those trees should be whizzing by like mad, not lazily plodding past like a guy on a bicycle.  At 400mph, low-level, I shouldn't even be able to SEE trees.  It should just be just a green blur.
    • Making the plane shake does NOT imply the feeling of an increase in speed.  It's an annoyance.  It throws off my aim.
    • The zooming in during acceleration works....kind of.
  • Roll inertia is getting better, but it needs to increase more, meaning fighters with "clean" wings should have a more rapid instantaneous roll rate, and bomb- and rocket-laden aircraft should have a drastically reduced instantaneous roll rate.  This would have the side benefit of making people think twice before loading their F4U or La-5 with rockets, bombs, etc.
  • As previously stated, the ceiling needs to be raised, and aircraft performance compensated as such.  The fear that the combat will take place at higher altitudes will be negated by the fact that aircraft will still be attacking ground targets at low-level, and therefore fighters will be forced to either fly low to take these aircraft out or suffer their consequences.
  • Speed loss in a turn still needs to be more.  In a near knife-edge turn, at full power, with flaps deployed, I should still be losing speed, not maintaining it.  I have been forced to "fly the game" rather than "fly the plane" because of this.
  • Stalls need to be abrupt.  Like 1,000% moreso than they are now.  These are big, heavy fighters.  They don't wallow.  They don't "get mushy" when they stall.  They break, and they break hard, and they usually DO NOT break straight ahead when they stall.  Heck, I've had a Piper Arrow break from a stall and nearly spin on me harder than a Corsair stalls in-game (background:  the Piper Arrow III is a notoriously stable single-engine aircraft, whereas the Corsair, improperly flown, could spin very easily).
  • Rudder effectiveness needs to increase nearly 100%.  If I tromp on a rudder in a big fighter such as the ones in-game, the nose should displace at least 20-30% immediately, and continue displacing (at a reduced rate) as long as I hold down the rudder.  Currently it displaces about 10% immediately, and then slows down to about 2-3 degrees per second.  This is laughable.  Also, there is no roll due to yaw.  Basic aerodynamics shows that if you increase airflow over a surface (like in an uncoordinated turn caused by rudder deflection), that surface will create an increase in lifting force.  Therefore, the outside wing in a turn receives more airflow (since it's going momentarily faster), and should raise up in the direction of the turn.  THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN.  It can't be hard to implement, and would add an element of realism to the game.
  • I'm not sure how else to phrase this, but at extremely low altitude (like below 100ft AGL), the ground sometimes seems to "suck" aircraft towards it.  Make it stop.
  • This may not be FM related, but it's frustrating nonetheless.  REDUCE THE BOMB PROXIMITY TIME DELAY.  I cannot count the number of times I've been 500ft AGL or higher, pursuing some aircraft that's equipped with bombs, traililng somewhere around 2,000ft behind it, when all of a sudden...BOOM!....and I'm dead.  Straight from 100% to 0%.  No warning.  Turns out, that aircraft dropped a bomb, and the blast is what got me.  No, it didn't hit me from above - it hit me from below.  I know why the delay was implemented - it was so most GA players didn't kill themselves with the explosion.  However, the delay is SO long that most people are incredibly well-clear of the target when it goes off.  Or re-work the delay where it's 3 seconds OR impact, whichever is longer.
I'm sure there's more.  I'll post more when I think of them.

These are very good and accurate suggestions, Jinxx take note.

My two cents is in line with a lot of these posts, planes just aren't responsive enough to user input.  Rudder is worthless, flaps barely increase drag/lift, rolls are slow, climb rates are much too slow, turns don't bleed speed barely at all, ground sucks you in sometimes, stall mechanics are FUBAR.  I'm not asking for Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 2012, but a little less arcade and a little more realism would make the flight model a lot better while also fleshing out the meta-game and adding more long-term playability.

Also on a side note, should we make a separate thread for jet-powered flight mechanics? That seems to be a consistent problem and while generally covered by this topic, maybe it deserves some more specific attention?

Edited by Tufton, 07 November 2012 - 03:52 PM.


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tankthatdestroys #15 Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

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I just started this game and the first thing I noticed is speed, there is none, or not enough. To me when you are diving the plane should have that speed of knowing you are in a dive, not just lagging.

Jinxed_Katajainen #16 Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

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Something else I have thought of that may not truly be a problem per se, but along the lines of flaps and control surface drag not being present or very weak, a lot of maneuvers that were done in real flight that would quickly bleed off speed and and force and overshoot of a pursuer are impossible in this game because they slow down your plane too slowly, allowing a pilot chasing you to match the slow down rate.

I'm hoping for more ways to quickly slow down your plane other than idle engine, flaps, and climbing... like speedbrakes for planes which had them equipped and other ways to slow yourself down, such as deploying landing gear to increase drag without increasing lift (which lifts your nose, spoiling aim unless you push the stick forward at the same time) like flaps do.

Also similar things have been mentioned in previous posts but engine throttle ranges probably need to be looked at.  The throttle settings in between full and idle are rather useless as normal flight forces you to keep the power at full to keep your speed up and idle to slow down while turning or maneuvering against other planes.  I've tried in-between settings while chasing other planes, but usually ended up just using max and idle to adjust speed and range to the enemy plane.

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Tufton #17 Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:28 PM

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Bump in lieu of pin.


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Pvt_Public #18 Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:28 AM

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Just chiming in to say that the zooming in while boosting feature is really obnoxious, it completely throws off my perception of distance and actually has made me dizzy on occasion. Please kindly remove it, or make it optional at the very least.
As for flight characteristics go, stalling in this game is handled in a really odd way. Nearly every time I have seen someone stall, or have stalled myself. It has been a tail first plummet of doom or a like a gentle cresting of a hill. When these planes stall if they are in a really high angle of incidence the plane should turn over HARD, and if there is any slip or skid at all then it should wing drop and spin.

1VBKnight #19 Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:32 PM

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Pretty much covers everything here already.  Not sure about the vertical limits in the game but 10000ft ceiling seems to be
alright as it is now.  I never see any planes even trying to achieve that altitude unless they are running and hiding and waiting
for the supremacy counter to end the game.  Then again with the current flight model these planes do not climb as they should
and if they did then yeah, that ceiling would be stopping many of the planes pretty hard at 10kft.

The ground suction needs to stop period.  I like to fly at very low altitudes (from my door gunner days on hueys) and right now
if I were to go below 100ft the ground starts to suck my plane down and no amount of pulling back on the elevator will put me
up, within seconds it always a crash, over water, over dirt, over sand or in trees on a mountain side.

cameronkfulk #20 Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:54 PM

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I have to agree... the sensation of speed while full throttle through a mountain ravine with someone on your tail... Its like a lazy stroll... It needs to be nail biting full focus on the surroundings and at the same time try to shake the tail...  I've tried to full bank turn with hard rise.. and bled off nothing if only a mph or two... hoping the plane behind would pass.. I was thinking I should stall due to air flow loss... nope... I also tried to do a vertical stall and was unable to get the quick snap.. it just slowed down and did a gentle recovery.

I think the overheating of the guns happen to soon as does the boost temperature climb... I think a 4-5 times the current boost ability with a longer cool down or have a better scale for throttle control. I think the guns over heat way to soon for the amount of air flow over the barrels.

I think ceiling height as previously mentioned... not sure how to scale the speed to the surroundings.. but at 200mph or so with a wing tip 80 foot off the mountain.. I shouldn't be able to see the rocks or trees... I otherwise enjoy the game and think it has huge potential...




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